Gandalf, can you name a country in the world that overestimates its healthcare more than the UK does?

What proportion of the UK population think UK healthcare is the best in the world? It has to be at least 75%. Look at the Olympic games opening ceramony. The NHS is literally part of our culture. And that is not a good thing because it blinds us to its faults in a way that no other country is. The same is true of America and guns.

I've said that before, but we all know this was an unprecedented crisis for all governments and it's only natural for mistakes to be made. There was enormous good will towards the govt back in early and mid-March both in our little microcosm here and in society in general, as this was an existential threat. I remember even ardent anti-tories like 'fairweather' and 'Whether Idle' making supportive posts here.

But the more incompetence the govt has displayed in several areas, the more deflection, lies and PR they decided to use instead of apologising and trying to correct their mistakes. They are shambolic.

People talk about 'chest beating nationalism' but have a think at what UK icon is worshipped more than the NHS? Not the queen, not the army, not the police, not the flag, not the anthem. The NHS unites the country in the sense that you know someone is british because everyone of every class, bent, and political position agrees the NHS is amazing.

Getting back to the original point, it was government policy to clear space in hospitals for the anticipated surge in Covid-19 cases.  You know as well as I do that there is a lot of bed-blocking with the elderly occupying beds for non-medical reasons. 

So, when the government says 'prepare for a wave of cases' you don't see a direct and obvious link to the subsequent decisions at local level to discharge elderly patients?  If you don't then you have an odd view of the chain of command that doesn't fit with your claims of the NHS being overly bureaucratic.

That's not quite true. Yes, back then everyone was focusing on the need for the NHS to avoid being overwhelmed and the numbers of ventilators etc., but there was talk about care homes even here!

Also the pandemic exercise had identified care homes as a priority and even the govt's chief advisers had mentioned them in Feb.

The NHS is amazing.  That doesn't mean it can't be improved.

As for 'worshipping the NHS'.......... 

You do have a habit of choosing some weird language to express some equally weird views.

Sure but the point I'm making is that in some cases the Government is just being scapegoated. We need to point out the flaws in all public institutions not the government.

If my posts are coming across as one sided its only because there is no shortage of critisim of the government but there is a deficit of critisim of the NHS. I mean back when all this was kicking off you will recall I actually praised the NHS much to my own suprise as during the containment phase the UK led Europe.

And yes the NHS deserves credit where credit was due there, but inevitably it turned out my worries were completely correct and the NHS really screwed up the delay phase.

What's the point in engaging with you when you just make bizarre statements and pluck numbers out of thin air?

I don't even accept your premise that the UK 'overestimates its healthcare' (sic).  But if you want an example of a healthcare system that isn't fit for purpose try the USA.

NHS is mediocre at best. Amazing implies its one of the best healthcare institutions in the world. Not even close.

And this is the problem, no one is willing to admit that we have a mediocre healthcare service, not an outstanding one. People outside of the UK laugh at us for our dogmatic attitude towards our healthcare. How do you think the olympic ceremony with its obligatory NHS worship segment came across to the other countries? It was embarrasing.

They gave three weeks advance notice!

It could have been Sars I suppose, it was about that time, and there was a Singaporean girl in the office, and Priti hated her

But seriously, it was an inner ear infection, and I still haven't recovered!

Cmon gandalf you didn't just make the 'but the USA' argument. At least the Americans have some amount of self awareness about their healthcare.

You yourself called the NHS amazing, most people would agree with you. Hence most people overestimate the NHS.

Yes, I remember that and in that aspect the govt was doing well in Feb. We were testing more than any other country in Europe and we were following the best practice of test, trace and isolate. Behind the scenes however, mistakes were being made that were sowing the seeds of many subsequent problems: no border closures or proper screening, lack of scaling up of testing, being biased by a flu pandemic preparation, the catastrophic indulgence with the notion of herd immunity without a vaccine, the dogged refusal to see what was happening in other countries (both in Asia and Europe), the delay in stopping mass gatherings, delay in locking down and so many more. 

Yes all these were issues, but it isn't right to put 100% of the blame for this incompetence on the govt. For example the failure to ramp up testing was PHE's inability to adapt, not a failure of the government for stressing the importance of testing. Herd immunity and poor flu pandemic research was partly the fault of independent scientific advisors giving the wrong advice. Hell Dominic cummings has been relevaled to have been skeptical of waiting too long before pubs closed e.c.t.

And none of this is to absolve the government either. The government, could ultimately, have expanded its advisors and acted sooner. But to suggest that the civil service, the NHS, PHE e.c.t. are blame free as is being implicity if not explicitly said is completely wrong.

I should point out that this crisis suggests, to me, that the government wasn't being agressive enough towards incompetence in the civil service, not the other way round. I.e more Cummings not less needed.

It is Justin who should apologise! He is prone to hissy fits and intemperate language. I don't suppose he means to be rude and ignorant, but that is how he comes across when he loses his temper.

Justin - this is a forum for debate and people are free to write what they think and you are free to disagree, but it can be done without calling people bipolar or whatever.

O'Brien did a phone in about this and talked to some of the new recruits. I'm afraid its almost entirely working from home and calling people up

I mostly agree with that. Will be interesting when the inquest is done and we find out what advice was being given at the time.

I suspect that too much wishful thinking was going on and not just in our political classes.

Most of the people who have died are poorer pensioners and those from urban backgrounds and BAME - Labour's base

Age is a much bigger indicator than Race. And pensioners are overwhelmingly Tory regardless of their income levels. Without pensioners in GE2019 it would probably have been a hung parliment. Also red wall seats which the Tories are adapting their policy to target are Urban.

For someone with your intelligence ..............that's a poor post .

When Quantum stops insulting the thousands of people in the NHS who are implementing Govt decisions and risking their lives - as he continues to do week after week with no justification whatsoever - I will lay off him. 
Until then, he deserves what he gets.

The virus is indiscriminate when it targets older people, so I don't know where "poorer pensioners" comes from - some of those in care homes are very well off (and paying for the privilege). Agree about urbanites and BAME - it is self evident that city dwellers will be more at risk, because of the crowds, but we don't know why BAME are more at risk - that is still under investigation - it is not simply class, poverty or crowded living conditions - some of those from an ethnic background who have died are well off and working with white colleagues who don't suffer in the same way.  We will have to see what they uncover on that particular topic.

Is this true @pritipatel ?
If it is, can you resign please. pic.twitter.com/iiWOAGXik2

— *****Morgan (@piersmorgan) May 20, 2020

Yes - shocking.

Doesn't this kinda prove my point that we arn't allowed to critisize the NHS because of cultural ties to it? NHS workers still have the same breath of competence, morality and deference as the rest of us. And the implicit argument that british people that work in the Healthcare have some inherant superiority to other western countries is not an argument I accept.