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Essan
08 January 2014 09:01:39

So it looks like James Madden was finally right   He called it first! 


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
GIBBY
08 January 2014 09:08:14

Good morning folks. Here is my latest look at the outputs from the NWP dated from midnight on Wednesday January 8th 2014.


All models are pretty clear on the course of events between now and the start of next week with rather drier and less dramatic weather than of late with exceptions. Today shows a slack Westerly flow across the UK with a new Low developing to the SW and moving NE across Wales tonight with rain and strong winds across Southern and Western areas early tonight extending NE to all of England and Wales and clearing out into the North Sea tomorrow with clearer and drier weather moving across from the West leaving a ridge of High pressure over the UK. On Friday another front is shown to cross all areas with a lighter band of rain. Late in the day a more substantial ridge is crossing East giving a largely dry day for many areas lasting 36-48hrs for most. However, later on Sunday the weather slides downhill again as new Low pressure pushes East off the Atlantic into the UK with rain moving steadily across the UK late in the day in a strengthening SE wind.


GFS than shows a dramatic change to colder weather early next week as Sunday's low disrupts across the UK and slides South while pressure continues to build across Scandinavia. As a result early rain will increasingly turn to snow first in the North but to southern areas too by midweek in cold Easterly winds. On the operational run it doesn't last too long before the Atlantic pulls milder air back down from the North later with a return to blustery and changeable conditions with average temperatures towards the back end of the run.


The GFS Ensembles mostly support a change to colder weather next week which could give some snowfall in places next week. Though uppers average below the mean then throughout the rest of the run some degree of lessening of cold is shown later with the incidence of more mobile cool zonality type weather following the Easterly incursion next week.


UKMO shows next Tuesday with disrupting Low pressure as a developing High pressure block continues to develop in the Norwegian Sea. The Low pressure will affect much of the UK with a lot of rain from slow moving troughs turning to snow in places with time over the hills. the chart shows unwelcome conditions likely in the flood stricken areas of the SW early next week.


GEM today shows a very wintry spell developing next week and doesn't look dissimilar to UKMO at 144hrs. After a wet and cold start strong Easterly winds are shown for much of the rest of the week and no doubt snow will feature widely at times and not just in the North or East.


NAVGEM keeps Low pressure over the UK next week and as a result the weather will stay relatively milder but still very wet for many with further copious rain events mixed with more showery weather with snow possible on northern hills in strong winds.


ECM this morning also look much like UKMO and GEM at Day 6 but differs from GEM in that it shifts the High from the Norwegian Sea SE quite quickly to cut off the cold feed from all but the far South by next weekend. Nevertheless, it will be a much colder week next week with several days of cold easterly winds and slack weakening Low pressure over the South providing the catalyst for some snow events as the cold Easterly feed drags cold Continental air west over Britain at least for a time.


The ECM 7 to 10 Day Mean Charts show strong support for a Scandinavian High pulling colder continental air across the UK early next week. With Low pressure down to the SW a trough structure would most likely exist across Southern and Western Britain with rainfall possibly turning to snow in places early in the week. On this run the trend moves away from a prolonged cold spell by Day 10 as most members favour falling pressure over Scandinavia and a subsequent weakening of the pattern with a slow shift towards pressure becoming low again to the NW later.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Reem1681.gif



http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Reem1921.gif



http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Reem2161.gif



http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Reem2401.gif


The Jet Stream is undergoing change currently as the flow becomes more diffuse over the next few days before settling on a course Eastward over Southern Europe with High pressure supported to it's North. Later in the output it strengthens again over the Atlantic with some support for it to overide the Scandinavian High later subsequently pushing it SE and re-introducing Low pressure across the Atlantic in a NE direction later.


In Summary this morning's output has accelerated the progress of developing cold weather over the UK very quickly next week. Most models support Low pressure down to the SW and more importantly a strong build of pressure over Scandinavia. As a result it looks odds on that most of the UK will see a period of cold Easterly winds with some snow next week and nowhere looks immune. In among all this we mustn't forget the risk that these synoptics will do nothing to alleviate flooding issues across the SW if troughs get hung up across these areas be it rain or snow. Frosts would become much more widespread than of late. The longevity of this spell is open for debate at the moment as there is some support that Scandinavian High pressure may be pulled away SE late next week by a rampant Atlantic jet flow riding over the High but this is a long way out and is certainly subject to change.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
kmoorman
08 January 2014 09:14:53

Thanks Martin.


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
Follow me on Twitter @kmoorman1968
Gooner
08 January 2014 09:17:12

http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/Data/PLUIM_06260_NWT.png  OP very much in the minority milder cluster long range. Control and majority members go cold/very cold Dutch coast from day 6.

Originally Posted by: warrenb 

Impressive UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Gooner 

It is the 12Z ensemble

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Still impressive


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


sam1879
08 January 2014 09:19:19



Would love to hear from Darren/Retron tomorrow am. This is looking good though early days yet. Darren let us know your thoughts please.


Originally Posted by: Retron 


I've been pretty quiet recently (largely due to going back to work), but suffice to say things are going as expected. The pattern change on the 9th is still there and, I must say, was an excellent spot by the ECM-15 almost two weeks ago. Sustained mild weather was never an option (beyond 5% or so) after the change and as mentioned last week the choice then became whether we'd have an average spell or a colder one.


The only change since the weekend is that the colder option has become more and more likely, with it now being the odds-on favourite. There's still a small but not ignorable chance of it staying near average, but for the time being I'd go for the cold option.


There are a few things to watch out for now that cold is looking likely:



  • How long will it last? Nobody knows, but a spell of several cold days is now looking probable.

  • Will it snow? Almost certainly, but of course it's too far out to be specific. In the meantime, the GFS op has a prolonged rain-to-snow scenario for southern England, which would be interesting for us southerners!

  • Will the pattern be self-sustaining? The models are undecided but going on recent years we'll need to watch out for trough disruption to the west. (There are several informal terms for this, "sliders", "lows going under the block" and so on). Every trough that disrupts to the west gives an extension to the cold.

  • The upper high is part of the puzzle. It's related to the trough disruption (which is itself related to the jet) but for a quick glance the location of that upper high is important. If it sinks SE'wards it becomes harder - but not impossible! - to sustain a cold spell.

  • The 528 line is less useful than usual. When we get a feed from the east during winter the lower levels tend to cool faster, meaning you get a cold, low-dewpoint "wedge" of air advected ahead of the colder upper air. This only serves to increase the likelihood of snow rather than rain. The effect of course lessens the further north you are as the sea has a greater modifying effect.


So, to sum up - watch for trough disruption (or sliders, lows under the block, lows getting shredded etc). Watch for the upper high near Scandinavia. And don't be at all surprised to see the models "wobble" more than once, as features too small to be resolved at the moment get picked up nearer the time (aka "spoiler lows", "shortwaves" etc).


The overall pattern is one which should excite cold weather fans and it will if nothing else bring a completely different feel to things than we've had so far this winter.


And as a final thing, it's the ECM which did the best with this. First to pick up the pattern change around a fortnight ago and the ensembles have been more consistent than its rivals. GEM deserves a mention too, as it's been pretty good at picking up the signal for an easterly. G(E)FS has performed relatively poorly and it's no wonder that work is currently being rushed along on a new version of the model. We'll see the results of that in April. It's also a reminder that although ensembles are the way to go, they're only as good as the base model driving them - if the base model is performing poorly, you'll get massive swings from the whole ensemble suite. Much as we've seen over the last 48 hours from GEFS!


 


Originally Posted by: Sasa 


Excellent post

Hungry Tiger
08 January 2014 09:20:27

Phew - looks different from now on.


But seems like it will be a 5 minute wonder. Too much oomph in the Atlantic jet.


 


Gavin S. FRmetS.
TWO Moderator.
Contact the TWO team - [email protected]
South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.


ARTzeman
08 January 2014 09:20:46

Thank you Martin for the output.


Have next Saturday down as Cold and the day after as Colder..






Some people walk in the rain.
Others just get wet.
I Just Blow my horn or trumpet
Hungry Tiger
08 January 2014 09:22:36




Would love to hear from Darren/Retron tomorrow am. This is looking good though early days yet. Darren let us know your thoughts please.


Originally Posted by: sam1879 


I've been pretty quiet recently (largely due to going back to work), but suffice to say things are going as expected. The pattern change on the 9th is still there and, I must say, was an excellent spot by the ECM-15 almost two weeks ago. Sustained mild weather was never an option (beyond 5% or so) after the change and as mentioned last week the choice then became whether we'd have an average spell or a colder one.


The only change since the weekend is that the colder option has become more and more likely, with it now being the odds-on favourite. There's still a small but not ignorable chance of it staying near average, but for the time being I'd go for the cold option.


There are a few things to watch out for now that cold is looking likely:



  • How long will it last? Nobody knows, but a spell of several cold days is now looking probable.

  • Will it snow? Almost certainly, but of course it's too far out to be specific. In the meantime, the GFS op has a prolonged rain-to-snow scenario for southern England, which would be interesting for us southerners!

  • Will the pattern be self-sustaining? The models are undecided but going on recent years we'll need to watch out for trough disruption to the west. (There are several informal terms for this, "sliders", "lows going under the block" and so on). Every trough that disrupts to the west gives an extension to the cold.

  • The upper high is part of the puzzle. It's related to the trough disruption (which is itself related to the jet) but for a quick glance the location of that upper high is important. If it sinks SE'wards it becomes harder - but not impossible! - to sustain a cold spell.

  • The 528 line is less useful than usual. When we get a feed from the east during winter the lower levels tend to cool faster, meaning you get a cold, low-dewpoint "wedge" of air advected ahead of the colder upper air. This only serves to increase the likelihood of snow rather than rain. The effect of course lessens the further north you are as the sea has a greater modifying effect.


So, to sum up - watch for trough disruption (or sliders, lows under the block, lows getting shredded etc). Watch for the upper high near Scandinavia. And don't be at all surprised to see the models "wobble" more than once, as features too small to be resolved at the moment get picked up nearer the time (aka "spoiler lows", "shortwaves" etc).


The overall pattern is one which should excite cold weather fans and it will if nothing else bring a completely different feel to things than we've had so far this winter.


And as a final thing, it's the ECM which did the best with this. First to pick up the pattern change around a fortnight ago and the ensembles have been more consistent than its rivals. GEM deserves a mention too, as it's been pretty good at picking up the signal for an easterly. G(E)FS has performed relatively poorly and it's no wonder that work is currently being rushed along on a new version of the model. We'll see the results of that in April. It's also a reminder that although ensembles are the way to go, they're only as good as the base model driving them - if the base model is performing poorly, you'll get massive swings from the whole ensemble suite. Much as we've seen over the last 48 hours from GEFS!


 


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Excellent post


Originally Posted by: Sasa 



I'll second that - Cheers Darren - Its excellent to have someone like yourself give a good explanation of how these forecast models work.


Help loads in the understanding of this.


Thanks.


Gavin S. FRmetS.
TWO Moderator.
Contact the TWO team - [email protected]
South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.


The Beast from the East
08 January 2014 09:23:08

http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/vijftiendaagse/index.php


Todays ECM ens


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Sasa
  • Sasa
  • Advanced Member
08 January 2014 09:26:40


So it looks like James Madden was finally right   He called it first! 


Originally Posted by: Essan 


 


Well he had to be right one day. He must have been flicking thought the models rather quickly when he went to produce the forecast and maybe he just failed to specify the year in which it was going to happen. Minor detail.


Kingston Upon Thames
Snowvillain
08 January 2014 09:44:22
As a newbie I won't try & tell you anything you don't already know but some of the best model output (as a coldie!) I've seen in a long time. I'm not getting too excited though as we all know these easterlys can and do go pear shaped in a blink of an eye, but I really hope this one comes off because these snow withdrawal symptoms are getting on my nerves!!!
SnowyHythe(Kent)
08 January 2014 09:44:56


http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/vijftiendaagse/index.php


Todays ECM ens


 

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Good to see to the Det mirror the control. A good spell isn't nailed on as per those ENS but it is getting closer..


 


 

Rob K
08 January 2014 09:48:10

http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/vijftiendaagse/index.php 
Todays ECM ens

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Not as impressive as last night's, but Cheggers can't be boozers.

Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
roger63
08 January 2014 10:16:30




Would love to hear from Darren/Retron tomorrow am. This is looking good though early days yet. Darren let us know your thoughts please.


Originally Posted by: sam1879 


I've been pretty quiet recently (largely due to going back to work), but suffice to say things are going as expected. The pattern change on the 9th is still there and, I must say, was an excellent spot by the ECM-15 almost two weeks ago. Sustained mild weather was never an option (beyond 5% or so) after the change and as mentioned last week the choice then became whether we'd have an average spell or a colder one.


The only change since the weekend is that the colder option has become more and more likely, with it now being the odds-on favourite. There's still a small but not ignorable chance of it staying near average, but for the time being I'd go for the cold option.


There are a few things to watch out for now that cold is looking likely:



  • How long will it last? Nobody knows, but a spell of several cold days is now looking probable.

  • Will it snow? Almost certainly, but of course it's too far out to be specific. In the meantime, the GFS op has a prolonged rain-to-snow scenario for southern England, which would be interesting for us southerners!

  • Will the pattern be self-sustaining? The models are undecided but going on recent years we'll need to watch out for trough disruption to the west. (There are several informal terms for this, "sliders", "lows going under the block" and so on). Every trough that disrupts to the west gives an extension to the cold.

  • The upper high is part of the puzzle. It's related to the trough disruption (which is itself related to the jet) but for a quick glance the location of that upper high is important. If it sinks SE'wards it becomes harder - but not impossible! - to sustain a cold spell.

  • The 528 line is less useful than usual. When we get a feed from the east during winter the lower levels tend to cool faster, meaning you get a cold, low-dewpoint "wedge" of air advected ahead of the colder upper air. This only serves to increase the likelihood of snow rather than rain. The effect of course lessens the further north you are as the sea has a greater modifying effect.


So, to sum up - watch for trough disruption (or sliders, lows under the block, lows getting shredded etc). Watch for the upper high near Scandinavia. And don't be at all surprised to see the models "wobble" more than once, as features too small to be resolved at the moment get picked up nearer the time (aka "spoiler lows", "shortwaves" etc).


The overall pattern is one which should excite cold weather fans and it will if nothing else bring a completely different feel to things than we've had so far this winter.


And as a final thing, it's the ECM which did the best with this. First to pick up the pattern change around a fortnight ago and the ensembles have been more consistent than its rivals. GEM deserves a mention too, as it's been pretty good at picking up the signal for an easterly. G(E)FS has performed relatively poorly and it's no wonder that work is currently being rushed along on a new version of the model. We'll see the results of that in April. It's also a reminder that although ensembles are the way to go, they're only as good as the base model driving them - if the base model is performing poorly, you'll get massive swings from the whole ensemble suite. Much as we've seen over the last 48 hours from GEFS!


 


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Excellent post


Originally Posted by: Sasa 


I'll second that!

ITSY
08 January 2014 10:17:04

not as quick in the transition to an Easterly on this run (at T+132 at least), but looks potentially more encouraging for further down the line with the high taking on the famous sausage like formation above lapland towards Greenland. Let's see how it evolves.

EDIT: Absolutely fabulous synoptics by the end of high res IMO

Russwirral
08 January 2014 10:27:28


not as quick in the transition to an Easterly on this run (at T+132 at least), but looks potentially more encouraging for further down the line with the high taking on the famous sausage like formation above lapland towards Greenland. Let's see how it evolves.


Originally Posted by: ITSY 


 


Yeh not so progressive with the cold this time... The first wobble?


Maunder Minimum
08 January 2014 10:32:26



not as quick in the transition to an Easterly on this run (at T+132 at least), but looks potentially more encouraging for further down the line with the high taking on the famous sausage like formation above lapland towards Greenland. Let's see how it evolves.


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


 


Yeh not so progressive with the cold this time... The first wobble?


Originally Posted by: ITSY 


Possibility for a prolonged cold spell looks more favourable with these charts however:


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1801.png


 


New world order coming.
GlenH
08 January 2014 10:33:58

High looks better positioned for a longer cold spell.

Gooner
08 January 2014 10:35:37

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2014010806/gfsnh-0-186.png?6


Looks half decent to me


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2014010806/gfsnh-1-186.png?6


 


 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


ITSY
08 January 2014 10:35:52




not as quick in the transition to an Easterly on this run (at T+132 at least), but looks potentially more encouraging for further down the line with the high taking on the famous sausage like formation above lapland towards Greenland. Let's see how it evolves.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


Yeh not so progressive with the cold this time... The first wobble?


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


Possibility for a prolonged cold spell looks more favourable with these charts however:


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1801.png


 


Originally Posted by: ITSY 



Couldn't agree more! I'm fighting a losing battle trying to say so on the other site, think i'll just give up. These synoptics are, whilst less extreme in the short term, much more conducive to the sort of self-sustaining pattern most of us want!

Gooner
08 January 2014 10:37:41

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2014010806/gfsnh-1-216.png?6


Certainly chilly next friday morning


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2014010806/gfsnh-0-216.png?6


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn21617.png 


Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
08 January 2014 10:40:02

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2014010806/gfsnh-0-240.png?6


A proper Winters day at last


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2014010806/gfsnh-1-240.png?6


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Chiltern Blizzard
08 January 2014 10:40:19




not as quick in the transition to an Easterly on this run (at T+132 at least), but looks potentially more encouraging for further down the line with the high taking on the famous sausage like formation above lapland towards Greenland. Let's see how it evolves.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


Yeh not so progressive with the cold this time... The first wobble?


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


Possibility for a prolonged cold spell looks more favourable with these charts however:


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1801.png


 


Originally Posted by: ITSY 


Indeed, on face value GFS 6z is a downgrade in terms of cold for the period a week from now.  However, the 6z delivers much more robust synoptics for prolonged cold due to the movement of the block to our north-east westwards whilst maintaining its heights and latitude, coupled with a significant weakening the Canadian polar vortex, with all this increasing the prospects of slider lows undercutting the high.


Andrew


Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
warrenb
08 January 2014 10:45:05
This looks like the classic 80's 2 bites of the cherry scenario. The first bite gives a little snow and cold before easing, then wammo, second bite about 1 to 2 weeks later delivers the goods. Look at a lot of classic easterly spells and you will see a small bit of the cherry about a week before the main event.
Sasa
  • Sasa
  • Advanced Member
08 January 2014 10:51:09





not as quick in the transition to an Easterly on this run (at T+132 at least), but looks potentially more encouraging for further down the line with the high taking on the famous sausage like formation above lapland towards Greenland. Let's see how it evolves.


Originally Posted by: Chiltern Blizzard 


 


Yeh not so progressive with the cold this time... The first wobble?


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Possibility for a prolonged cold spell looks more favourable with these charts however:


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1801.png


 


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


Indeed, on face value GFS 6z is a downgrade in terms of cold for the period a week from now.  However, the 6z delivers much more robust synoptics for prolonged cold due to the movement of the block to our north-east westwards whilst maintaining its heights and latitude, coupled with a significant weakening the Canadian polar vortex, with all this increasing the prospects of slider lows undercutting the high.


Andrew


Originally Posted by: ITSY 


 


Could not agree with that more. As far as I am 6am run is an upgrade in prolonged cold that would produce 80's type snow event


Kingston Upon Thames
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