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Stormchaser
22 December 2014 10:43:32

Oh come on GFSP... give me a break:


  


See the massive change at just 5 days range between the 00z (left) and 06z (right)...?!


There's then too much development to our west for a cold outcome within the next 10 days though - the UK storm isn't able to dig south and it's a pretty tragic outcome for England and Wales. Becomes a snowfest for Scotland by day 8.


 


But really. My sanity is being tested.


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Frostbite80
22 December 2014 10:47:03


Oh come on GFSP... give me a break:


  


See the massive change at just 5 days range between the 00z (left) and 06z (right)...?!


There's then too much development to our west for a cold outcome within the next 10 days though - the UK storm isn't able to dig south and it's a pretty tragic outcome for England and Wales. Becomes a snowfest for Scotland by day 8.


 


But really. My sanity is being tested.


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 

It really does seem whatever happens at the moment most the UK does not benefit from any decent long lasting wintry conditions..........you couldn't make it up

doctormog
22 December 2014 10:52:02
A rather tasty looking GFS and GFS 06z run up here but it, as others suggest, just goes to highlight the uncertainty. I guess it is a possible outcome, and one that would be nice up north but not as much for the south, but I would be surprised if it was shown across the 12z output.

Christmas Eve and Day is still somewhat uncertain so who knows what might happen afterwards.
squish
22 December 2014 10:55:28
The 06z parallel run is not dissimilar to New Year 1979 🙂
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
doctormog
22 December 2014 10:56:16

The 06z parallel run is not dissimilar to New Year 1979 :)

Originally Posted by: squish 


I think it has lost the plot but nonethess rather entertaining! 


John Tempest
22 December 2014 10:56:24

I'm not an expert at all but unless we (Darlington) get something from the North East or a true Easterley the most we can expect are squally sleety showers.

kmoorman
22 December 2014 10:57:01

The 06z parallel run is not dissimilar to New Year 1979 :)

Originally Posted by: squish 


It takes an age for the cold upper air to make it all the way to the SE though - snow-fest for days in the North though.


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
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kmoorman
22 December 2014 11:00:07


 


It takes an age for the cold upper air to make it all the way to the SE though - snow-fest for days in the North though.


Originally Posted by: kmoorman 


 


It just needs to move 200 miles further SE and we're all happy.


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
Follow me on Twitter @kmoorman1968
Roonie
22 December 2014 11:00:58

Indications of a strospheric warming now showing in the models


http://users.met.fu-berlin.de/~Aktuell/strat-www/wdiag/ts.php?plot=temps&alert=1&lng=eng


 


Still Lurking.......

North Worcestershire
RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
22 December 2014 11:02:08

Stonking thriller of a run from 6Z GFSP - amazingly snowy for the north.


Total chaos in model land 


Rob
In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.
kmoorman
22 December 2014 11:05:02


Stonking thriller of a run from 6Z GFSP - amazingly snowy for the north.


Total chaos in model land 


Originally Posted by: RobN 


 


Scotland and parts of Northern England would be under feet of snow.   It might be a bit parky at times down south, of a little wet.


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
Follow me on Twitter @kmoorman1968
Rob K
22 December 2014 11:11:16

GFS and GFSP could hardly be more different by 10 days out. The colours are virtually negatives!

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn2401.gif - Greenland low, Azores high

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rpgfs2401.gif - Greenland high, Azores low.


 


Nobody has a scooby.


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
kmoorman
22 December 2014 11:18:44


GFS and GFSP could hardly be more different by 10 days out. The colours are virtually negatives!

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn2401.gif - Greenland low, Azores high

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rpgfs2401.gif - Greenland high, Azores low.


 


Nobody has a scooby.


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


All options are still available. It's interesting though to see the possibility of an Easterly appearing in the output of late.  


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
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Stormchaser
22 December 2014 11:20:56

What's totally bonkers is how a slight change in the angle of the jet in 4 days time causes the U.S. storm to dramatically disrupt with a lot of energy heading under the Greenland High, which then results in a very robust block that just goes on and on with no sign of abating even at day 16.


If anything too much energy is under the block on this run 


In fact I think it would also wreak havoc on the strat. vortex.


 


Total madness really. The run is pretty much in a territory unexplored by recent GEFS and ECM ensemble output, with the only run coming close being yesterday's 12z JMA op run.


As hard as I look, I can't see a trigger in the 500mb charts for this dramatic change of output so an extremely suspicious run, only worth this many words because of the ridiculous uncertainty levels at play right now.


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Saint Snow
22 December 2014 11:21:01


GFS and GFSP could hardly be more different by 10 days out. The colours are virtually negatives!

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn2401.gif - Greenland low, Azores high

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rpgfs2401.gif - Greenland high, Azores low.


 


Nobody has a scooby.


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


The GFSP isn't *terrible*. It keeps heights high over Greenland for the hi-res portion of the run at least.


I think the very best I can hope for here (and this would be a near-miracle) is some back edge snow settling, followed by a freeze as HP builds over the UK.


All rather feeble.


 


(One year I'll get the 'gridlocked UK' festive super-snowstorm. One year...)



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Fothergill
22 December 2014 11:21:37

Well the models are farcical of late, I think I will stick to the ensemble means beyond Christmas - much more stability and sanity there. If you ignore the wildly swinging op runs there's good consistency in the means at day 9 although certainty is clearly low ATM.


NAEFS 


ECM


GEM

Saint Snow
22 December 2014 11:22:58


Well the models are farcical of late, I think I will stick to the ensemble means beyond Christmas, much more stability and sanity there.


Originally Posted by: Fothergill 


 


You call those horrendous charts 'sanity'???


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Russwirral
22 December 2014 11:24:39


Stonking thriller of a run from 6Z GFSP - amazingly snowy for the north.


Total chaos in model land 


Originally Posted by: RobN 


 


I have literally said WTF to my PC.


 


Where did that come from?


 


Greenland High back in the mixer.... i need a lie down.


Frostbite80
22 December 2014 11:25:51
Some nice ensembles on the 6z showing promise;

1/3/4/5/11/17/18/20

some are very tasty indeed and there are much fewer ensembles showing the high heights to the south of the country which has to be a good thing to see!
roger63
22 December 2014 11:27:56

Next weekends LP is being modeled further north and east by GFS 06h and a lot further north by GFSP.The result is lower intensity and less cold event.Still time to change,but trend is towards less severe event.


Post depression GFSP provides a genuine looking GH -if it ever happens like that.!

doctormog
22 December 2014 11:28:21


 


 


You call those horrendous charts 'sanity'???


 


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


I would be very wary about using an ensemble 500hPa/SLP mean chart as they will simply average out all the scenarios. If many options exist in the output it will come to some form of halfway house as shown. I guess if they are used with the "spread" charts to show confidence levels they may give more of a helpful indication.


 


idj20
22 December 2014 11:32:36

GFSP gives a nice snow storm for the northern half of Britain but for the South its a rainfest due to high pressure staying put and not allowing low pressure take a more southerly track. Little tweeks and it could be a totally different story.

Originally Posted by: Frostbite80 



Whiffs of January 1984?


Folkestone Harbour. 
Stormchaser
22 December 2014 11:37:31

I'm afraid the ensemble means are misleading at the moment, because the individual members have a fairly even spread across a huge range of outcomes. The overall mean usually tends to have the appearance of a zonal setup in these situations, giving a false impression of low uncertainty and inter-run consistency.


I think this is due to the fact that runs with LP to the north tend to have deeper storms with negative 500 mb height departures (from a 'neutral' height field, about 550dam I suppose) far larger than the positive height departures achieved on runs with high pressure in that area, due to the effect of colder air (lowers heights). The situation is reversed at lower latitudes, where the low heights with low pressure are countered or overridden by the high values in high pressure.


 


This is just a bit of theoretical thinking on my part based, so If anyone knows of a reason why this is incorrect, please don't hesitate to correct me 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
kmoorman
22 December 2014 11:45:58

Some nice ensembles on the 6z showing promise;

1/3/4/5/11/17/18/20

some are very tasty indeed and there are much fewer ensembles showing the high heights to the south of the country which has to be a good thing to see!

Originally Posted by: Frostbite80 


 


3 or 4 bitter Easterlies in the mix as well...    all to play for.


 


Added:  I'll take perturbation 1 please....     snow heaven 


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
Follow me on Twitter @kmoorman1968
Fothergill
22 December 2014 11:48:01


I would be very wary about using an ensemble 500hPa/SLP mean chart as they will simply average out all the scenarios. If many options exist in the output it will come to some form of halfway house as shown. I guess if they are used with the "spread" charts to show confidence levels they may give more of a helpful indication.


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


They're not to be taken literally of course especially with high divergence but they do show the balance of probability of a particular weather type, and as you said to be used in conjunction with the spreads and other data available.

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