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nsrobins
29 December 2014 16:45:46

Just throwing this into the mix:


Matthew Hugo
‏@MattHugo81 00Z ECM essentially destroys the strat vortex at 30hPa by 8th of January. Implications possibly felt mid-Jan onwards


And that follows an earlier tweet from MH saying the EC32 shows zonal flow until week 3 of January.


Now we assume that Strat influence is modelled, so if the ECM is destroying the PV, why is it not being shown in the SLP charts by the same model? Perhaps it is not expected to propagate and translate into the synoptics on the surface after all?


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Robertski
29 December 2014 16:45:53


 


It is now happening and is shown correctly here:


http://users.met.fu-berlin.de/~Aktuell/strat-www/wdiag/ts.php?plot=temps&alert=1&lng=eng


 


It is no longer a forecast, but a nowcast.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Indeed. Let's see what if any effect this has on the weather pattern for good old blighty. Will this nudge the polar vortex enough to give us a good shot of cold down the road or is it just one of several factors needed to break things up a bit?

moomin75
29 December 2014 16:48:25

By the end of the week we'll start seeing some eye candy 😉

Originally Posted by: Snowedin3 


Dean Barnes is the new Garry Sarre. I am very confident. laughing


Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
briggsy6
29 December 2014 17:05:30

Perhaps he lives next door to a modelling agency.


Location: Uxbridge
Polar Low
29 December 2014 17:40:23

Correct James we were robbed



 



The rationale behind paying so much attention to the strat. at the moment is quite simple really - with the hemispheric setup as it is, a SSW is our best bet for changing the game in our favour.


It's by no means a guaranteed path to success - there could easily be a big freeze to our east with nothing much here, like in February 2012 I think it was - but I can't see much evidence for positive changes being driven by much else in the coming weeks.


In short, what Nick said earlier (good post by the way) 


So, I'm going to be focusing on this aspect until if and when some interesting storms start coming along, by which time the week 2 model output will hopefully be showing some marked changes to our pattern.


 


Re: Martin's post above, there was a lot of warming last month but it didn't quite have the strength needed to bring about much change away from the areas beneath where the warming occurred, which were on the other side of the pole. Over there, high latitude blocking has been coming along quite often of late and looks to be doing so again during the coming 10 days or so.


As for an impending SSW, I can see strong signs of it on the latest model runs, even GFS, which has been very reluctant until today (below-left shows very strong warming focused over the SW tip of Greenland, below-right shows the impact on the vortex by day 15):


  


While GFSP remains a bit less keen, it's been trending stronger as well, while ECM has been showing the strongest warming of all, perhaps a full-blown SSW based on the day 10 00z chart (not shown as it's behind a paywall I think - I'm relying on reports by others).


The significance of having warming to our NW is that even if it doesn't go the whole hog, it will act to reduce the westerlies in the Atlantic sector and support high pressure to our NW. Just a hint of that in the latest GFS run.


As it is, the trop. impacts probably won't be seen until the second half of January.


Until then, a strong westerly flow seems likely starting 7-8 days from now with a high risk of severe wind events and large rainfall amounts. Shame we have to take this route but the wave breaking just didn't pack enough of a punch back in December to overcome what was an unfavourable origin as far as the UK is concerned (east Asia).


 


Edit: just thought I should make clear that an actual SSW remains nothing more than a possibility at the moment - we may just see some fairly strong warming to the NW, which would tip the balance toward blocking to our NW but there's no telling at this stage whether it would be enough.


Despite all this uncertainty, I'd rather analyse it in detail than spend my posts moaning about how dreadful the current NWP output is in terms of the UK's surface weather pattern.


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 

Polar Low
29 December 2014 17:42:06

Thanks Gav


 



Hi all,


Here's today's video update - Westerlies Returning For Start Of 2015;





Originally Posted by: Gavin P 

Stormchaser
29 December 2014 17:42:50


Just throwing this into the mix:


Matthew Hugo
‏@MattHugo81 00Z ECM essentially destroys the strat vortex at 30hPa by 8th of January. Implications possibly felt mid-Jan onwards


And that follows an earlier tweet from MH saying the EC32 shows zonal flow until week 3 of January.


Now we assume that Strat influence is modelled, so if the ECM is destroying the PV, why is it not being shown in the SLP charts by the same model? Perhaps it is not expected to propagate and translate into the synoptics on the surface after all?


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Who knows, but models are far from perfect representations of the atmosphere.


What exactly is EC32 anyway? It is an ensemble-based system? I mean, surely it's not a single deterministic run extended to 32 days... that would be a ridiculous way of going about things.


If it is ensemble based, that explains why it often takes time for new developments in the regular ECM deterministic run to appear in the EC32.


If not... refer to third sentence of second paragraph


 


I see GFS has produced the flattest possible run in lower-res... typical stuff. Meanwhile GFSP and GEM are more amplified and the former wants to kill us all. Also examples of typical behaviour based on the past few months .


The timing and placement of systems and as a result how exactly the energy moves around varies a lot between the runs and models so all that can be said about week one of January at the moment is 'generally unsettled with temperatures often near to above average, at times little below. Risk of a severe wind and/or rain event.'


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

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2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Polar Low
29 December 2014 17:44:51

No more crying game plenty of time Q chin up



Awful. I said a couple of days ago there were some encouraging signs, they evaporated pretty damn quick to give a 2014esque pattern. The high in the arctic has no support further south so is as useful as a chocolate teapot.


Roll on February 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Quantum
29 December 2014 17:55:32


No more crying game plenty of time Q chin up


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


Won't be for another two weeks at least. We all know if this Strat warming delivers (and its uncertain given that as an SSW its marginal at best) the lag still means we will basically have written off half the winter as mild. 


Oh btw I'll have some custom strat charts for everyone by tommorow. I'm upgrading GRADs and writing some strat devoted scripts. Hopefully they will be of some use to the strat watchers here :)


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Rob K
29 December 2014 18:20:24


Just throwing this into the mix:


Matthew Hugo
‏@MattHugo81 00Z ECM essentially destroys the strat vortex at 30hPa by 8th of January. Implications possibly felt mid-Jan onwards


And that follows an earlier tweet from MH saying the EC32 shows zonal flow until week 3 of January.


Now we assume that Strat influence is modelled, so if the ECM is destroying the PV, why is it not being shown in the SLP charts by the same model? Perhaps it is not expected to propagate and translate into the synoptics on the surface after all?


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


 


???


 


Seems to tally up to me. "Mid January onwards" means Jan 15-16 onwards to me, which is indeed week 3 of January. So if it is zonal until week 3, that implies that changes may occur from week 3 onwards, correct?


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Jim_AFCB
29 December 2014 18:32:09


 


Indeed. The 12Z +240 GFS has a fat Azeuro high and a flow across the UK straight from Bermuda. Pure gunk IMO.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Pure heaven for me, another week closer to spring without getting my bits frozen off and losing sports fixtures to frozen pitches,not to mention losing money as cant do my 40 mile commute due to snow. But then, we're not all coldies!!!


still remembering 2013 though, an arctic spell can blow up out of seemingly nothing aftrer weeks of "dire model output for coldies"


Jim, Bournemouth, Dorset. Home of the mighty Cherries
Bournemouth Weather Onine - Click here. 
nickl
29 December 2014 18:41:05


Just throwing this into the mix:


Matthew Hugo
‏@MattHugo81 00Z ECM essentially destroys the strat vortex at 30hPa by 8th of January. Implications possibly felt mid-Jan onwards


And that follows an earlier tweet from MH saying the EC32 shows zonal flow until week 3 of January.


Now we assume that Strat influence is modelled, so if the ECM is destroying the PV, why is it not being shown in the SLP charts by the same model? Perhaps it is not expected to propagate and translate into the synoptics on the surface after all?


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


hi neil - correct me if i'm wrong but the 8th of jan is 10 days from now. which particular ecm trop charts are you expecting to show the consequences of something which will have a lag time of at least a few days before showing in the trop ??


 


and yes, the trop charts you look at are the same model that is deriving the strat charts. the whole atmosphere from top to bottom.

Hippydave
29 December 2014 18:46:52

Will be interesting to see if there's any colder runs around T192 - T240 in the GFS ens - op shows an Artic HP gradually pushing over the pole towards Greenland only for the PV to go a bit nuts and the HP to scuttle off.


Not sure I'm buying that or the subsequent Westerly domination.


Given the flat and zonal Westerly bit then relies on the model having accurately predicted the behaviour of the Artic HP (unlikely) and subsequent behaviour of the PV (unlikely) I think I'll reserve judgement before calling 'zonal train', January's gone etc. for the time being.


That said if I can avoid too many more mornings like this morning from a riding point of view I'll be happy - skinny tyres and lots of ice = bruising


Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Polar Low
29 December 2014 18:51:11

Thanks ever so much GW for explaining so much ive coped that in my cd Library 


 



I will second what James has said about Nick's (nickl) post earlier which was excellent.


It is worth noting that there are several types of SSW including major and minor events as defined in a 1978 WMO commission http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_stratospheric_warming


For a major event to occur there must be an increase in mean temperature poleward from 60N at 10hPa or lower and an associated circulation reversal to a mean easterly flow again from 60N northwards.


For a minor event there must be an increase in mean temperature of at least 25C within a week at any stratospheric level in winter. The zonal mean wind is weakened but there is little or no reversal in the flow and the polar vortex is not broken down.


Typically a major SSW occurs about once every 2 years while a minor SSW can occur several times each winter. The warming we saw in the stratosphere back in November was nowhere near sufficient to qualify as a SSW.


The last major SSW was in early January 2013


This chart shows the sudden increase in temperature at 10hPa
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/temperature/archive/10mb9065_2013.gif


This chart shows the zonal mean wind changed to easterly (the green area) at the same time
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat-trop/gif_files/time_pres_UGRD_MEAN_ALL_NH_2013.gif


This is also highlighted by the zonal wind anomaly chart (the blue area)
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat-trop/gif_files/time_pres_UGRD_ANOM_ALL_NH_2013.gif


This event was followed by some cold conditions in the UK (which may have been partly a result of the SSW). From 13 - 25 Jan 2013 the mean CET was -0.6C.


The last minor SSW was at the beginning of February 2014


This chart shows a temperature increase of 25C from about -60C to about -35C in early February at 10hPa
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/temperature/10mb9065.gif


The zonal wind was weakened but only reversed to easterly briefly and only then at 2hPa and below. At 10hPa there was still a weak westerly flow
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat-trop/gif_files/time_pres_UGRD_MEAN_JFM_NH_2014.gif


This event had no discernible impact on UK temperatures.


Applying the above to the current situation and what the models are showing today there are clear signs that a minor SSW is almost upon us. Given what the output is showing this could potentially become a major SSW within the next 10 days.


Warming often starts high up in the atmosphere. This can clearly be seen on the latest chart for the 1hPa level
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/temperature/01mb9065.gif


This shows a temperature rise of about 19C in the past few days from around -31C to close to -12C. It only needs to rise by another 6C to meet the definition of a minor SSW (the above definition requiring a 25C rise within a week at any level of the stratosphere).


Looking at the model output the current temperature profile at 1hPa is as follows
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat_a_f/gif_files/gfs_t01_nh_f00.gif


This shows an area of very warm temperatures of greater than +15C but also a core of cold temperatures in places below -50C.


The forecast chart for T72 shows the following
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat_a_f/gif_files/gfs_t01_nh_f72.gif


The area of warm temperatures has shrunk a bit but also there are now no areas where the temperature is below -40C. So overall the mean temperature looks like it will continue to rise in the coming days.


Significant impacts are also being modelled at the 10hPa level as per James' post above. As others have said, changes in the stratosphere probably represent at the moment our best chance of seeing colder conditions develop as we move through January. But even if a SSW does occur this does not necessarily mean we will experience colder conditions in the UK, it merely increases the probability that we might.


Originally Posted by: Global Warming 

roger63
29 December 2014 19:14:42


Will be interesting to see if there's any colder runs around T192 - T240 in the GFS ens - op shows an Artic HP gradually pushing over the pole towards Greenland only for the PV to go a bit nuts and the HP to scuttle off.


Not sure I'm buying that or the subsequent Westerly domination.


Given the flat and zonal Westerly bit then relies on the model having accurately predicted the behaviour of the Artic HP (unlikely) and subsequent behaviour of the PV (unlikely) I think I'll reserve judgement before calling 'zonal train', January's gone etc. for the time being.


That said if I can avoid too many more mornings like this morning from a riding point of view I'll be happy - skinny tyres and lots of ice = bruising


Originally Posted by: Hippydave 


Having looked at the GEFS there is little sign, over the next  15 days, of any northern blocking.Over this period therefore, any cold development would have to come from a  strongly amplified ridge giving the opportunity of a Scandi HP  forming.There  is currently little sign of that in the ENS.


I would go with the METO outlook that no sustained cold is likely for most of January.There is a hint in today's  extended outlook of something colder and more settled towards the end of January but low confidence.The METO contingency forecast also talks of slow easing of the strong  NAO + ve position during January.


I reckon METO have been pretty good so far in their forecasts so hopefully something cold will emerge later in the month. 

Hippydave
29 December 2014 19:26:36


 


Having looked at the GEFS there is little sign, over the next  15 days, of any northern blocking.Over this period therefore, any cold development would have to come from a  strongly amplified ridge giving the opportunity of a Scandi HP  forming.There  is currently little sign of that in the ENS.


I would go with the METO outlook that no sustained cold is likely for most of January.There is a hint in today's  extended outlook of something colder and more settled towards the end of January but low confidence.The METO contingency forecast also talks of slow easing of the strong  NAO + ve position during January.


I reckon METO have been pretty good so far in their forecasts so hopefully something cold will emerge later in the month. 


Originally Posted by: roger63 


Yeah just flicked through the ens - there's a few lee Northerlies but nout more than that really. Bit disappointing.


Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Maunder Minimum
29 December 2014 19:29:21


 


Having looked at the GEFS there is little sign, over the next  15 days, of any northern blocking.Over this period therefore, any cold development would have to come from a  strongly amplified ridge giving the opportunity of a Scandi HP  forming.There  is currently little sign of that in the ENS.


I would go with the METO outlook that no sustained cold is likely for most of January.There is a hint in today's  extended outlook of something colder and more settled towards the end of January but low confidence.The METO contingency forecast also talks of slow easing of the strong  NAO + ve position during January.


I reckon METO have been pretty good so far in their forecasts so hopefully something cold will emerge later in the month. 


Originally Posted by: roger63 


I would hope for something sooner than that - it would be nice to have an extended cold spell during January, whilst the sun is still low in the sky. Something could crop up in the next 10 to 15 days - models can change their output very quickly.


I don't think the models are correctly modelling anything at the moment, beyond about t+144 - changes are bound to occur in the coming days.


New world order coming.
Medlock Vale Weather
29 December 2014 19:42:07

Not sure if this has already been posted as I can't be arsed scrolling up but Ian Fergusson earlier today said that there is chances of cold snaps through January as they expect the NAO to weaken as the month progresses. I can't recall him saying anything like that last Winter, it was all doom & gloom. We have plenty of time to be optimistic of more cold weather.


Alan in Medlock Valley - Oldham's frost hollow. 103 metres above sea level.
What is a frost hollow? http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/Frost-hollow.htm 
Gooner
29 December 2014 19:53:51

By the end of the week we'll start seeing some eye candy 😉

Originally Posted by: Snowedin3 


You off for a pic n mix then


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
29 December 2014 19:58:22


Not sure if this has already been posted as I can't be arsed scrolling up but Ian Fergusson earlier today said that there is chances of cold snaps through January as they expect the NAO to weaken as the month progresses. I can't recall him saying anything like that last Winter, it was all doom & gloom. We have plenty of time to be optimistic of more cold weather.


Originally Posted by: Medlock Vale Weather 


And he is the type of person to listen IMO


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


ITSY
29 December 2014 20:05:24

to continue the fascination with the strat, which as others have said is arguably no more influential than other factors but remains the only one of any major optimism at present, it is worth mentioning the output so far this evening. the ECM, JMA and NAVGEM all offer very significant warming (though not all necessarily official SSWs) in areas favourable to us within the next 10 days around Greenland. GFSOp and GFSP offer warmings of sorts but nothing to write home about. Really worth watching how this develops - the ECM NH profile at day 10 at least shows the prospect of something relatively wintry for someone in blighty, along with a significant Arctic High - as it seems quite rare to have this level of discrepancy within the medium range/high res model output. Something to cling to at least!

(should add though that reasons for despondency should be relatively small - many parts of central northern England have lying snow, almost all the country had the hardest frost in over a year last night and we have just had several days of genuinely cold weather. I just went skiing at xscape and it was colder outside than in - not bad for mild weather in low lying southern England  )

Stormchaser
29 December 2014 20:50:55

As well covered by ITSY (cheers), there are some significant warming events appearing on the latest ECM, JMA and NAVGEM runs.


If GFS moves in line any time soon (surely it can't wait much longer if it's going to do so - it all kicks off in 5 days time) then more signs of change should appear in the far reaches of the output, given that the likes of ECM are signalling a rapid propagation of the warming down to the troposphere.


So rapid, in fact, that the day 10 ECM 12z op run 500mb chart is already starting to mirror the heavily split stratospheric setup which sees a rapid demise of the Canada/Greenland vortex lobe, leaving a rather frail, increasingly weak Scandinavia/Siberia vortex lobe in charge.


 


Some stratospheric eye candy for you (actually looks like candy!):


  


In both cases the core temperature of the warming (orange/red colours) rockets from -40*C to -8*C in the space of a few days. The vortex lobes (blue colours) are split very far apart and JMA is rapidly weakening the Canadian vortex while shoving it east. NAVGEM is also pushing it further away from us, but isn't weakening it so rapidly.


Note also the mangled state of the formerly Scandi/Siberia vortex lobe on these runs. They seem to be dealing more damage to that one than ECM does and it appears that JMA is on course to take both lobes out completely.


What's more these only go out to day 8, and ECM shows the warming becoming even stronger days 9-10... but I think this is more a case of JMA and NAVGEM showing a faster rate of warming rather than a larger event overall.


 


For those who can bear to look at it, GFS only has a core temperature of -20*C for day 8:

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2014122912/gfsnh-10-192.png?12


...after which the warming starts to fade. A similar story on GFSP too... unless we get some sort of halfway house, this is going to be very embarrassing for either these two or the other three.


Given that it's a top-down warming (top of strat. to bottom), I guess this comes down to how the models handle the strat. more than what they're up to down here in the troposphere. In terms of their reputation with this, ECM leads the way, followed by JMA.


 


As a final point for now, here's a Tweet which suggest that we're closely following a theoretical precursor pattern for SSW events:


https://twitter.com/webberweather/status/549633284138106880


Look at the top chart and then the one on the bottom-right. Not identical but some striking similarities across much of the hemisphere.


Far more entertaining than the trop. output at the moment, regardless of what we get from it 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
The Beast from the East
29 December 2014 21:11:35
Unfortunately it doesn't look as if the Arctic High is going to ridge south and help us and we will need some help from this alleged strat warming event. As Roger says there is nothing much of interest in any of the ens members. I think we can write off the next 2 weeks at least and probably 3.
"We have some alternative facts for you"
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nickl
29 December 2014 21:21:13

Unfortunately it doesn't look as if the Arctic High is going to ridge south and help us and we will need some help from this alleged strat warming event. As Roger says there is nothing much of interest in any of the ens members. I think we can write off the next 2 weeks at least and probably 3.

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


beast, 


did you not just read James' post? 


write off two weeks by all means but to write off three is just ludicrous at the moment.

Essan
29 December 2014 21:30:58


Not sure if this has already been posted as I can't be arsed scrolling up but Ian Fergusson earlier today said that there is chances of cold snaps through January as they expect the NAO to weaken as the month progresses. I can't recall him saying anything like that last Winter, it was all doom & gloom. We have plenty of time to be optimistic of more cold weather.


Originally Posted by: Medlock Vale Weather 



But how many people realise that "chance of" does not mean "an absolute certainty of"?



Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA

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