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Saint Snow
06 June 2015 09:35:18

 


There is an attitude on the left that it is the voters who are wrong - in other words, the electorate is undeserving.


At least Alan Johnson understands that it is the Labour Party which is in the wrong place, rather than the voters.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


I disagree.


The problem with the left is that they fail to offer a coherent message to explain in simple terms how a country with a more equal distribution of wealth & better rights for us in work will offer a much better existence for the vast majority.


The message gets diluted & distracted by a combination of special interest minority causes who attach themselves to the core leftist message, and constant rebuttal of right-wing vested interest propaganda.


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Maunder Minimum
06 June 2015 09:37:13


 


Odd, I'm sure I remember plenty on the right self righteously expressing similar views about the electorate during the campaign if they didn't vote Conservative - I must go back through a few threads (before the disappear...) and find examples.


I mean, surely you think your political views are right too???


.


Originally Posted by: Devonian 


There is a big difference between being self righteous and in being simply right.


Seriously though - I don't think I am better than Labour voters - I have Labour voting friends and I would never cut them off because they have different political views from my own. I would go further and state that I enjoy having friends whose political views are very different from my own, since that leads to interesting discussions and debates.


The difference between right and left often comes down to this - the right are pragmatic, accept human nature for what it is and work for the best possible outcome in the light of that reality, whereas the left for some reason, appear to believe in what they see as the perfectability of human beings and as a consequence are idealistic.


In a battle between idealism and pragmatism, for me the latter wins every time.


New world order coming.
Saint Snow
06 June 2015 09:40:25


The difference between right and left often comes down to this - the right are pragmatic, accept human nature for what it is and work for the best possible outcome in the light of that reality, whereas the left for some reason, appear to believe in what they see as the perfectability of human beings and as a consequence are idealistic.


In a battle between idealism and pragmatism, for me the latter wins every time.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


Rather, the left understand that if we control our more base & animalistic instincts like greed & self-interest at the expense of everyone else, society would be a better place.


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Maunder Minimum
06 June 2015 09:53:56


Rather, the left understand that if we control our more base & animalistic instincts like greed & self-interest at the expense of everyone else, society would be a better place.


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


Which statement is to misunderstand the right. Greed and self interest are of course important human characteristics, but so are loyalty, honour and self sacrifice. The right take the view that our interests ripple out from the self to family, community and country. For example, I would put myself in harms way to save my wife or daughters from harm themselves. The point is that mutuality diminishes the further you get from the centre.


Look at the argument about welfare for example. In a largely homogenous society with a strong sense of shared community, paying tax to support those less fortunate can feel justified. In a fragmented society with a lot of immigrants and guest workers, paying tax to pay for their benefits sticks in the craw. That is part of the basis for Cameron's attempts to claw back some control from the EU - native citizens really do resent migrants from other parts of the EU being eligible for a whole raft of benefits, including in work benefits like tax credits.


It has long been a reality that the welfare state is incompatible with open borders, a view expressed eloquently in the 1970s by Milton Freidman. So the dichotomy for the left there, is that if they want to build a welfare society, it should be done in the context of the nation state with strong border controls.


New world order coming.
Devonian
06 June 2015 11:03:21


 


There is a big difference between being self righteous and in being simply right.

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Actually, they are precisely the same - perhaps that's what you meant?


Seriously though - I don't think I am better than Labour voters - I have Labour voting friends and I would never cut them off because they have different political views from my own. I would go further and state that I enjoy having friends whose political views are very different from my own, since that leads to interesting discussions and debates.


The difference between right and left often comes down to this - the right are pragmatic, accept human nature for what it is and work for the best possible outcome in the light of that reality, whereas the left for some reason, appear to believe in what they see as the perfectability of human beings and as a consequence are idealistic.


In a battle between idealism and pragmatism, for me the latter wins every time.



Plenty on the right are idealistic - Gove for example, or TBW of the past. I do, though, think the Conservative party is more connected with reality when it is as it is now - same applies to Labour.


I'm 'of the left'. I don't think human being are perfectable,  I think we're, all, flawed. I can't think of many changes to this country over the last 200 years, changes which have made it a better place, that originated from the right. What say you?


Much is being made of how bad this election was for Labour. But the truth is they increased their vote nationally by about 1%. And the Conservatives? They increased their vote by....about 1%...No, the real story of this election was the collapse of the LD vote and the consequences of said, and the effect of the SNP surge on Labour.

Charmhills
08 June 2015 09:39:30

Most Labour voters support strike curbs: Poll reveals nearly six in ten are in favour of Most Labour voters support strike curbs policy and also approve of plans for benefits cap and English-only votes


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3114667/Most-Labour-voters-support-strike-curbs-Poll-reveals-nearly-six-ten-favour-Cameron-s-policy-approve-plans-benefits-cap-English-votes.html


So it would seem a majority of Labour supporters back the Tories on a whole host of reforms.


So you could say the gap between The Labour Party and its supporters is huge!!


Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.
Maunder Minimum
08 June 2015 13:34:49

Appears that Grant Shapps has been cleared of the Wikipedia scam exposed during the election campaign:


http://order-order.com/2015/06/08/wikipedia-slaps-down-grant-schapps-libdem-wikipedia-tormentor/


Has come too late to save his job however and that is because whether true or not, the allegation against Shapps (aka Michael Green) was all too believable.


New world order coming.
Saint Snow
08 June 2015 13:41:45


Appears that Grant Shapps has been cleared of the Wikipedia scam exposed during the election campaign:


http://order-order.com/2015/06/08/wikipedia-slaps-down-grant-schapps-libdem-wikipedia-tormentor/


Has come too late to save his job however and that is because whether true or not, the allegation against Shapps (aka Michael Green) was all too believable.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


The allegations against Schapps/Green were a tad more serious than the Wiki stuff.


 


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Maunder Minimum
02 July 2015 16:09:27
Charmhills
02 July 2015 16:34:04


Well, here is a Conservative election promise being fulfilled:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11713133/SNP-fury-as-government-announces-English-votes-for-English-laws.html



Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Good.


Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.
Bugglesgate
02 July 2015 17:56:22


 


Good.


Originally Posted by: Charmhills 


 


About time too


Now we need an English parliament  !


Chris (It,its)
Between Newbury and Basingstoke
"When they are giving you their all, some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy banging your heart against some mad buggers wall"
llamedos
02 July 2015 18:20:25


 


 


The allegations against Schapps/Green were a tad more serious than the Wiki stuff.


 


 


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

TBH not really followed that story too carefully as it was obvious from the outset that this was a set-up. That said as he's the local MP where my business is located I'd be interested to learn about the extra (presumably substantive) meat on the bone.


"Life with the Lions"

TWO Moderator
Charmhills
03 July 2015 09:15:38

I see Labour and the SNP accuse the Tories of racism over the England only votes!


Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.
Maunder Minimum
03 July 2015 09:21:49


I see Labour and the SNP accuse the Tories of racism over the England only votes!


Originally Posted by: Charmhills 


Gerald Kaufman is a right, royal prick!


Why is it only the English who are accused of "racism" in the context of the United Kingdom, whilst the Scots are allowed their SNP and Holyrood, the Welsh are allowed their Plaid Cymru and Senedd and the Irish have all sorts of national identities, plus Stormont?


All we are asking for is fairness, following devolution to the other constituent nations of the UK.


New world order coming.
Saint Snow
03 July 2015 09:57:45


 


Gerald Kaufman is a right, royal prick!


Why is it only the English who are accused of "racism" in the context of the United Kingdom, whilst the Scots are allowed their SNP and Holyrood, the Welsh are allowed their Plaid Cymru and Senedd and the Irish have all sorts of national identities, plus Stormont?


All we are asking for is fairness, following devolution to the other constituent nations of the UK.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


A pet hate of mine is referring to different nationalities as 'races'.


A Caucasian Scottish person is the same race as a Caucasian English person is the same race as a Caucasian French person, etc


So how the frig this can be 'racism' is beyond me



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
David M Porter
03 July 2015 20:08:55


 


Gerald Kaufman is a right, royal prick!


Why is it only the English who are accused of "racism" in the context of the United Kingdom, whilst the Scots are allowed their SNP and Holyrood, the Welsh are allowed their Plaid Cymru and Senedd and the Irish have all sorts of national identities, plus Stormont?


All we are asking for is fairness, following devolution to the other constituent nations of the UK.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Perhaps if Westminster, say 40-50 years ago, had been willing to modernise the political system in this country and had been willing to change to something of a more federal structure, the situation we have now may never have come about. FWIW I reckon that had that been done, then the likes of the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly and even the Northern Irish Assembly may never have become necessary.


The situation we had up until 1999 whereby Westminster decided everything for everyone was no longer tenable, IMO. It's just a pity that no-one there realised many years before then that change would one day be required.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Saint Snow
04 July 2015 14:51:32

With the government still taking a hatchet to public services & public sector jobs in the name of 'austerity', funny how they can find the estimated £1bn+ to help people getting an already huge windfall pay no tax on it


Chancellor George Osborne's Budget is to confirm the end of inheritance tax on family homes worth up to £1m.


He is expected to tell MPs on Wednesday that the threshold at which the tax is levied will rise for couples from £650,000 after April 2017.

BBC wrote:


 


Utterly disgraceful, but no doubt the usual suspects on here will commence their circle-jerk over how the Tories take off the poor to give to the rich.


 


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
KevBrads1
06 July 2015 12:57:17


 


Gerald Kaufman is a right, royal prick!


Why is it only the English who are accused of "racism" in the context of the United Kingdom, whilst the Scots are allowed their SNP and Holyrood, the Welsh are allowed their Plaid Cymru and Senedd and the Irish have all sorts of national identities, plus Stormont?


All we are asking for is fairness, following devolution to the other constituent nations of the UK.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


To be quite brutal, I'm not convinced that 85 year olds should be allowed to stand for parliament. By the time of next election, he will be pushing 90.......if he lives that long.


I certainly think there should be an upper age limit for MPs, 75 to 80 at most. 


MANCHESTER SUMMER INDEX for 2021: 238
Timelapses, old weather forecasts and natural phenomena videos can be seen on this site
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgrSD1BwFz2feWDTydhpEhQ/playlists
Maunder Minimum
06 July 2015 16:48:20


With the government still taking a hatchet to public services & public sector jobs in the name of 'austerity', funny how they can find the estimated £1bn+ to help people getting an already huge windfall pay no tax on it


 


 


Utterly disgraceful, but no doubt the usual suspects on here will commence their circle-jerk over how the Tories take off the poor to give to the rich.


 


 


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


Osborne is not "giving " money to anyone. He is taking slightly less off the beneficiaries of estates worth up to 1 million is all.


 


New world order coming.
Saint Snow
14 July 2015 10:25:15


 


Osborne is not "giving " money to anyone. He is taking slightly less off the beneficiaries of estates worth up to 1 million is all.


 


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


semantics.


Nothing to say on the actual policy?



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Perthite1
14 July 2015 11:43:49
Well after one of George Osbourne's economic advisers was caught in a crack den last year, this may help to explain some of their flawed policies. Since 2010 the debt of the UK has increased from 0.8 trillion to 1.4 trillion pounds. Immigration has significantly increased, to be fair there has been an improvement in GDP, but only because they now include prostitution and illegal drug sales. London is now the home of money laundering, and a ridiculous property bubble which ones again fuels GDP. I can't wait to see what happens in the next 5 years.

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