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Retron
22 November 2015 14:21:29


Lets hope they get smashed to pieces like some where back in that stormy winter of 13/14 to proof how unless they really are.


Originally Posted by: Charmhills 


Great idea! Let's hope they all get destroyed, so we'll lose that 5% or so of total power that offshore wind provides. Especially as we get ever closer to using our margin of safety of production...


Politics aside, I'm mildly amused at all the gloom-n-doom on here, as shown by the lack of posts etc.


The control run from the ECM these last few days has shown what would be described as "cold zonality" by some. No, it's most unlikely to be a white wonderland for us all but there will almost certainly be some snow around, especially up north, in the next 2 weeks. The ECM-32 control has shown similar things - ie periods of westerlies or (brief) SW'lies, followed by colder WNW'lies or NW'lies. One thing there's no sign of is a repeat of the near record-breaking mildness we had to end October and for much of November so far.


Be very wary of those using the Weatherbell anomaly charts btw. Those just show broad trends and will completely miss things like this weekend's colder plunge. And as the runs progress, the anomalies become weaker anyway as the individual runs diverge.


It's also worth noting that the ECM runs these past few days have been amongst the mildest in their ensemble suites. Case in point, today's 0z run:



If you look closely, you'll see that by the 1st there are two distinct clusters - one mild and zonal, the other colder and still zonal. The colder options are in fact in the majority at the moment.


There are no big cold spells shown, to be sure, but it's a world away from the sort of thing we were seeing a couple of weeks back:



 


Leysdown, north Kent
nsrobins
22 November 2015 15:02:17


 


Great idea! Let's hope they all get destroyed, so we'll lose that 5% or so of total power that offshore wind provides. Especially as we get ever closer to using our margin of safety of production...


Politics aside, I'm mildly amused at all the gloom-n-doom on here, as shown by the lack of posts etc.


The control run from the ECM these last few days has shown what would be described as "cold zonality" by some. No, it's most unlikely to be a white wonderland for us all but there will almost certainly be some snow around, especially up north, in the next 2 weeks. The ECM-32 control has shown similar things - ie periods of westerlies or (brief) SW'lies, followed by colder WNW'lies or NW'lies. One thing there's no sign of is a repeat of the near record-breaking mildness we had to end October and for much of November so far.


Be very wary of those using the Weatherbell anomaly charts btw. Those just show broad trends and will completely miss things like this weekend's colder plunge. And as the runs progress, the anomalies become weaker anyway as the individual runs diverge.


It's also worth noting that the ECM runs these past few days have been amongst the mildest in their ensemble suites. Case in point, today's 0z run:



If you look closely, you'll see that by the 1st there are two distinct clusters - one mild and zonal, the other colder and still zonal. The colder options are in fact in the majority at the moment.


There are no big cold spells shown, to be sure, but it's a world away from the sort of thing we were seeing a couple of weeks back:



 


Originally Posted by: Retron 

Good post and a salient reminder not to take an OP run in isolation. The ENS published on 6th go to 21st, with the very coldest member down to a max of +4.


Two weeks later and what is the max today?


Point illustrated!


 


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Whether Idle
22 November 2015 15:15:05


GEM GFS and ECM ops all bearing a remarkable similarity to each-other at the turn of the season, at the present moment in time.


I await the next churn of the charts with interest to see if this will be maintained in the output or ditched.


I think it is important to have a spectrum of charts  posted, even if they do not scream "cold".


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Chunky Pea
22 November 2015 15:38:49


The control run from the ECM these last few days has shown what would be described as "cold zonality" by some. No, it's most unlikely to be a white wonderland for us all but there will almost certainly be some snow around, especially up north, in the next 2 weeks. The ECM-32 control has shown similar things - ie periods of westerlies or (brief) SW'lies, followed by colder WNW'lies or NW'lies. One thing there's no sign of is a repeat of the near record-breaking mildness we had to end October and for much of November so far.


Be very wary of those using the Weatherbell anomaly charts btw. Those just show broad trends and will completely miss things like this weekend's colder plunge. And as the runs progress, the anomalies become weaker anyway as the individual runs diverge.


Originally Posted by: Retron 


 


I have a strange feeling you might be referring to me in with that comment. FWIW. I neither use WeatherBell or refer to anomaly charts. I agree though, cool zonality up to day 10 looks to be the form-horse; beyond that, however, the EC mean is clearly showing something stirring regarding a pressure build into western Europe. At day 15, for example, it has a large wedge of > 1028 mb over W/NW France with the 1024 mb isobar as far north as central UK and southern parts of Ireland. Quite significant considering that this is 15 days out on the EC run. Whether this trend continues in later runs, however, remains to be seen.


 


 


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Retron
22 November 2015 15:45:02


I have a strange feeling you might be referring to me in with that comment. FWIW.


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


I was actually referring to those over on NW who seem to treat the mean charts as gospel. They're really not - as I've said on here in years past, mean charts are absolutely useless beyond 10 days or so, you should instead be looking at clusters. They're now available for GEFS, but mere mortals can only see out to day 5 with ECM. (There are 5 clusters already by day 5 today!)



 At day 15, for example, it has a large wedge of > 1028 mb over W/NW France with the 1024 mb isobar as far north as central UK and southern parts of Ireland. Quite significant considering that this is 15 days out on the EC run. Whether this trend continues in later runs, however, remains to be seen.



That's actually not significant at all - you've fallen into the same trap that those over on the other forum have fallen into!


As to why, consider that the control run today on day 15 has a large high to the west and northerlies over the UK (1036hPa over Ireland, the 1024hPa isobar is over central France).


There's more than one way to skin a cat!


Leysdown, north Kent
Chunky Pea
22 November 2015 16:01:27


 


That's actually not significant at all !


Originally Posted by: Retron 


It actually is! Being a mere mortal I, like billions of others, don't have access to the ECM clusters beyond 168 hrs, but considering that the EC mean is showing such notable pressure rises to the south of the UK and Ireland beyond day 10 (and particularly post day 12), it indicates that  a significant amount of clusters in the 00z runs are hinting at something.. whatever that something is, may occur to jar the pattern in that general area around that time frame. Whatever though, it is only one run and it is new to the general trend anyway. But what I cannot see in any of the NWP outputs recently is raging zonality. Zonal, yes, but nothing particularly vigorous or noteworthy for the time of year.


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Retron
22 November 2015 16:24:20


It actually is! Being a mere mortal I, like billions of others, don't have access to the ECM clusters beyond 168 hrs,


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


Okay, here's why it isn't significant.


First - it's 15 days away. You're going to get a heck of a lot of spaghetti at that stage.


Second - the control run has 1036 Ireland, 1024 France and a northerly flow. Another run with say 1010 Ireland and 1034 France (eg this: http://images.meteociel.fr/im/3290/gfs-0-234_unl1.png) would give your average of 1028 for France and 1024ish for Ireland.


One is a northerly, the other is a SW'ly - what's the average of those? Useless. That's what the average of a northerly with a high to the west and a SW'ly with a high over France is.


Third - "mere mortals" can get a month's free Accuweather Pro and 7 days' free Weatherbell.


Fourth - we can use the Dutch ensembles to get an idea of conditions in SE England, at least.


http://www.weerplaza.nl/15daagseverwachting/?type=eps_pluim&r=zuidwest


These are the ensembles for an area less than 100 miles away from Kent.


Have a look - mild SW'lies, for example, are noteable by their absense - there's only one or two days out of the next 15 where a mild SW'ly is the most likely option. Looking at the whole picture you'll see that there's a good chance of a rPM flow, with low dewpoints and winds between WNW and WSW. It's by no means certain though and certainly by day 15 there's too much scatter to draw any conclusions.


 


Leysdown, north Kent
Solar Cycles
22 November 2015 17:02:19
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Good post.👍
Chunky Pea
22 November 2015 17:18:51


 


Okay, here's why it isn't significant.


First - it's 15 days away. You're going to get a heck of a lot of spaghetti at that stage.


Second - the control run has 1036 Ireland, 1024 France and a northerly flow. Another run with say 1010 Ireland and 1034 France (eg this: http://images.meteociel.fr/im/3290/gfs-0-234_unl1.png) would give your average of 1028 for France and 1024ish for Ireland.


One is a northerly, the other is a SW'ly - what's the average of those? Useless. That's what the average of a northerly with a high to the west and a SW'ly with a high over France is.


Third - "mere mortals" can get a month's free Accuweather Pro and 7 days' free Weatherbell.


Fourth - we can use the Dutch ensembles to get an idea of conditions in SE England, at least.


http://www.weerplaza.nl/15daagseverwachting/?type=eps_pluim&r=zuidwest


These are the ensembles for an area less than 100 miles away from Kent.


Have a look - mild SW'lies, for example, are noteable by their absense - there's only one or two days out of the next 15 where a mild SW'ly is the most likely option. Looking at the whole picture you'll see that there's a good chance of a rPM flow, with low dewpoints and winds between WNW and WSW. It's by no means certain though and certainly by day 15 there's too much scatter to draw any conclusions.


Originally Posted by: Retron 


 


I agree that there is too much scatter for sure, which is why we just discuss possible outcomes from the data we extract from NWP outputs


Didn't say anything about mild SW'lys though. Even if pressure was to rise over W. Europe into early Dec as the EC is showing, it could be still quite unsettled, esp the further NW one was to go with greater chance of more of ridging influences further SE, hence the more seasonal temps.


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Gooner
22 November 2015 17:31:41


 


 


I agree that there is too much scatter for sure, which is why we just discuss possible outcomes from the data we extract from NWP outputs


Didn't say anything about mild SW'lys though. Even if pressure was to rise over W. Europe into early Dec as the EC is showing, it could be still quite unsettled, esp the further NW one was to go with greater chance of more of ridging influences further SE, hence the more seasonal temps.


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


Nothing like admitting your wrong


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Chunky Pea
22 November 2015 17:49:16


 


Nothing like admitting your wrong


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Photo of a frog that might interest you...


 



 



Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
doctor snow
22 November 2015 18:06:11
Nothing ever happens in november december cold wize u wait till jan 16 sure to be interesting to see what happens in jan feb with a centrol based el nino setting up be watching the models then for sure
Chiltern Blizzard
22 November 2015 19:46:16

Nothing ever happens in november december cold wize u wait till jan 16 sure to be interesting

Originally Posted by: doctor snow 


Where were you in 2010? Or 2009 for that matter!


 


Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
doctor snow
22 November 2015 20:24:47
09 10 was a very rare year for cold in december
Saint Snow
22 November 2015 20:31:45

09 10 was a very rare year for cold in december

Originally Posted by: doctor snow 


 


In the 15 Decembers so far this century, MBY - not exactly the snowiest place in the country - has had snow fall & settle in*:


2000


2001


2004


2009


2010


2011


2014


In all but 2011 & 2014, the snow sat on the ground for at least 48 hours. That's almost a 1 in 2 chance - and better than either Jan or Feb


 


 


* that I definitely remember - my memory's not as it was


 


 


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Stormchaser
22 November 2015 20:35:40

The El Nino background state is attempting to reinforce itself in the model output, hence the Azores High being displaced into Europe on a number of recent operational runs.


Unless tropical convection pulls out some new surprises, the theme of higher heights over Europe should gain ground over the coming few days. That's not to say they'll become stuck there like we had during the first half of November, but some periods of unusually high temps do look possible in between the polar maritime incursions. Following recent events, I'm not ruling out another unusual event or two though.


The current output has pretty much trended toward what the analogue years suggested we'd see in December this year, i.e. low pressure to our NW and high pressure Azores to Europe, while high pressure in the vicinity of Siberia is left relatively undisturbed. A good snow cover advance feedback is enhancing the Siberian High even further during the foreseeable future, which is promising for later in the season. So it all fits well with the theoretical side of things, but of course it's the theory that's behind the way in which the model handles certain situations, hence it can be considered most impressive if a model spots an unusual deviation a good way in advance.


 


The model trends of the past few days coupled with how things have panned out this month have reinforced my belief that our main hope for a significant cold, snowy spell of weather affecting locations beyond the usual benefactors lies with stratospheric wave breaking associated with that Siberian High, the hope being that this can achieve results by midwinter rather than mid-February as would be typical of a 'classic' El Nino winter. The hybrid nature of this year's events and its wobbles toward a more central ('Modoki') type event could prove helpful in this regard but a lot of this has little or no precedents to work with so... we're flying with (even) poorer vision than usual this season 


I know there are those who find it hard to place faith in stratospheric events and I can understand why; about half the time the resulting weather patterns end up shaped in the wrong way for the UK. Recent research has started to clarify the reason for this, though - it's to do with where the wave breaking takes place from. It turns out that wave breaking from the American side of the Pacific e.g. via an Alaskan Ridge tends to push polar vortex remnants toward Greenland, which is what happened last winter in late Jan/early Feb, diminishing and cutting short what would otherwise have been a decent cold spell for many of us.


Wave breaking from the Asian side, via a Siberian High, is another matter entirely, with high pressure over Greenland a favoured result.


Yet even then promises can't be made, as that high can end up too far west, the cold air plunging into the middle of the North Atlantic. So really, major strat. warming events are actually not that reliable at all - but when you have other background signals working against a cold pattern for the UK, they're among the most promising means of escaping the usual westerly regime. Such will be the case this winter... unless the El Nino goes full-on Central Pacific by the end of this year, which would be truly exceptional!


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

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Keep Calm and Forecast On
Hungry Tiger
22 November 2015 20:55:39


The El Nino background state is attempting to reinforce itself in the model output, hence the Azores High being displaced into Europe on a number of recent operational runs.


Unless tropical convection pulls out some new surprises, the theme of higher heights over Europe should gain ground over the coming few days. That's not to say they'll become stuck there like we had during the first half of November, but some periods of unusually high temps do look possible in between the polar maritime incursions. Following recent events, I'm not ruling out another unusual event or two though.


The current output has pretty much trended toward what the analogue years suggested we'd see in December this year, i.e. low pressure to our NW and high pressure Azores to Europe, while high pressure in the vicinity of Siberia is left relatively undisturbed. A good snow cover advance feedback is enhancing the Siberian High even further during the foreseeable future, which is promising for later in the season. So it all fits well with the theoretical side of things, but of course it's the theory that's behind the way in which the model handles certain situations, hence it can be considered most impressive if a model spots an unusual deviation a good way in advance.


 


The model trends of the past few days coupled with how things have panned out this month have reinforced my belief that our main hope for a significant cold, snowy spell of weather affecting locations beyond the usual benefactors lies with stratospheric wave breaking associated with that Siberian High, the hope being that this can achieve results by midwinter rather than mid-February as would be typical of a 'classic' El Nino winter. The hybrid nature of this year's events and its wobbles toward a more central ('Modoki') type event could prove helpful in this regard but a lot of this has little or no precedents to work with so... we're flying with (even) poorer vision than usual this season 


I know there are those who find it hard to place faith in stratospheric events and I can understand why; about half the time the resulting weather patterns end up shaped in the wrong way for the UK. Recent research has started to clarify the reason for this, though - it's to do with where the wave breaking takes place from. It turns out that wave breaking from the American side of the Pacific e.g. via an Alaskan Ridge tends to push polar vortex remnants toward Greenland, which is what happened last winter in late Jan/early Feb, diminishing and cutting short what would otherwise have been a decent cold spell for many of us.


Wave breaking from the Asian side, via a Siberian High, is another matter entirely, with high pressure over Greenland a favoured result.


Yet even then promises can't be made, as that high can end up too far west, the cold air plunging into the middle of the North Atlantic. So really, major strat. warming events are actually not that reliable at all - but when you have other background signals working against a cold pattern for the UK, they're among the most promising means of escaping the usual westerly regime. Such will be the case this winter... unless the El Nino goes full-on Central Pacific by the end of this year, which would be truly exceptional!


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


A very well done there James for some excellent information and using terminology we can all relate to. Cheers, thanks :-)


 


Gavin S. FRmetS.
TWO Moderator.
Contact the TWO team - [email protected]
South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.


David M Porter
22 November 2015 21:52:39


The El Nino background state is attempting to reinforce itself in the model output, hence the Azores High being displaced into Europe on a number of recent operational runs.


Unless tropical convection pulls out some new surprises, the theme of higher heights over Europe should gain ground over the coming few days. That's not to say they'll become stuck there like we had during the first half of November, but some periods of unusually high temps do look possible in between the polar maritime incursions. Following recent events, I'm not ruling out another unusual event or two though.


The current output has pretty much trended toward what the analogue years suggested we'd see in December this year, i.e. low pressure to our NW and high pressure Azores to Europe, while high pressure in the vicinity of Siberia is left relatively undisturbed. A good snow cover advance feedback is enhancing the Siberian High even further during the foreseeable future, which is promising for later in the season. So it all fits well with the theoretical side of things, but of course it's the theory that's behind the way in which the model handles certain situations, hence it can be considered most impressive if a model spots an unusual deviation a good way in advance.


 


The model trends of the past few days coupled with how things have panned out this month have reinforced my belief that our main hope for a significant cold, snowy spell of weather affecting locations beyond the usual benefactors lies with stratospheric wave breaking associated with that Siberian High, the hope being that this can achieve results by midwinter rather than mid-February as would be typical of a 'classic' El Nino winter. The hybrid nature of this year's events and its wobbles toward a more central ('Modoki') type event could prove helpful in this regard but a lot of this has little or no precedents to work with so... we're flying with (even) poorer vision than usual this season 


I know there are those who find it hard to place faith in stratospheric events and I can understand why; about half the time the resulting weather patterns end up shaped in the wrong way for the UK. Recent research has started to clarify the reason for this, though - it's to do with where the wave breaking takes place from. It turns out that wave breaking from the American side of the Pacific e.g. via an Alaskan Ridge tends to push polar vortex remnants toward Greenland, which is what happened last winter in late Jan/early Feb, diminishing and cutting short what would otherwise have been a decent cold spell for many of us.


Wave breaking from the Asian side, via a Siberian High, is another matter entirely, with high pressure over Greenland a favoured result.


Yet even then promises can't be made, as that high can end up too far west, the cold air plunging into the middle of the North Atlantic. So really, major strat. warming events are actually not that reliable at all - but when you have other background signals working against a cold pattern for the UK, they're among the most promising means of escaping the usual westerly regime. Such will be the case this winter... unless the El Nino goes full-on Central Pacific by the end of this year, which would be truly exceptional!


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


Excellent explanation there James, many thanks.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Chiltern Blizzard
22 November 2015 22:07:17
Thanks James. Very informative and interesting.
Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
doctor snow
22 November 2015 23:59:51


 


 


In the 15 Decembers so far this century, MBY - not exactly the snowiest place in the country - has had snow fall & settle in*:


2000


2001


2004


2009


2010


2011


2014


In all but 2011 & 2014, the snow sat on the ground for at least 48 hours. That's almost a 1 in 2 chance - and better than either Jan or Feb


 


 


* that I definitely remember - my memory's not as it was


 


 Not in the south of the uk it has not on hills in the north maybe and scotland 


 


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

Snowfan
23 November 2015 07:06:06

Interesting 00z, looks like a definite colder trend after Dec 5th smile


"Let It Snow, Let It Snow, Let It Snow! "
[/size]
doctormog
23 November 2015 07:47:13


Interesting 00z, looks like a definite colder trend after Dec 5th smile


Originally Posted by: Snowfan 


Actually, to be precise, the GFS 00z op run has cooler conditions for a couple of days at +300hrs. Overall it anod other models still show a generally mobile flow.


Maunder Minimum
23 November 2015 09:12:41

In the meantime, 2 metres of snow fell in Roskilde, Denmark at the weekend.


Some people have all the fun!


http://www.tv2lorry.dk/artikel/28672 
 
New world order coming.
Saint Snow
23 November 2015 09:28:16


Not in the south of the uk it has not on hills in the north maybe and scotland  


Originally Posted by: doctor snow 


 


I'm at 26m asl in Merseyside (technically in the southern half of the UK) 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Charmhills
23 November 2015 10:11:23

Generally very changeable across the model output today.


Wind and rain/showery, some mild spells/cold shots etc.


Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.

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