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nsrobins
07 December 2017 10:50:12
Liking the later stages of the 06Z - it’s a recurring theme. Yes 850s are subdued but whilst the surface synoptics are favourable the chance of a deep CAA of surface cold exists. Revert to the usual pattern and it’s a long way off.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Saint Snow
07 December 2017 10:50:47

 


I disagree with the positioning of the snow. Looks good for anywhere North of the N Midlands I think.


Originally Posted by: Gary L 


 


WeatherOnline suggest different:


12pm



 


3pm




Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
roger63
07 December 2017 10:57:46


Yes another easterly set-up at the end of the run but it would be a complete waste of time with a "cold pool" of about -6C to tap into.

Unless we can get a 2010-style cross-polar flow from Siberia we're not going to get any deep cold to our shores in the foreseeable future (after today's northerly outbreak of course).


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Wouldn,t be unhappy with this a couple of days before Xmas!


tallyho_83
07 December 2017 11:00:39

Just for fun? Regen? Means rain over Moors?


 



Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Rob K
07 December 2017 11:01:07

FWIW the JMA has the low on Sunday centred over southern Scotland 


 



 


GEM disappears the low altogether into a flabby trough



Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
tallyho_83
07 December 2017 11:01:41


 


Wouldn,t be unhappy with this a couple of days before Xmas!



Originally Posted by: roger63 


 


Why not? HP could retrogress and join Greenland HP block!??? - Then we could pull in some proper cold air to the east!?


Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


tallyho_83
07 December 2017 11:04:38


Just for fun? Regen? Means rain over Moors?


 



Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


 


Gefr. Regen means frozen rain/sleet! now I know.


Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Maunder Minimum
07 December 2017 11:04:48


this run restores the faith but it may be an outlier. lets see in an hour


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


T+240 is too far away to worry about Beast. All that concerns me at the moment is the prospect for snow on Sunday. Was looking good for the Midlands previously and now not so good - the positioning of the slider low is critical and that won't be nailed down for another couple of runs at least.


New world order coming.
Downpour
07 December 2017 11:05:19


Yes another easterly set-up at the end of the run but it would be a complete waste of time with a "cold pool" of about -6C to tap into.

Unless we can get a 2010-style cross-polar flow from Siberia we're not going to get any deep cold to our shores in the foreseeable future (after today's northerly outbreak of course).


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


Yes, a warm easterly would certainly be the most pyrrhic of victories. As you say, cold in the wrong place for us currently, from the north, from the east. Today's northerly won't be that cold either, at the surface – 6c maxes are not what I call cold. 


Chingford
London E4
147ft
Stormchaser
07 December 2017 11:10:59

It's feasible that none of the models have Sunday right yet. Certainly too early to say which ones may be closer to the mark.



This isn't just favoured spots in the north getting snow though so what Downpour was looking at, I don't know?


 


 


Sufficient cold air in the mix during the middle part of next week for marginal snow events to pop up here and there, even in the south as the GFS 06z shows (though this model tends to be a little optimistic with the thresholds required).


 


A little further ahead and a comparison of the 00z and 06z GFS runs for 8 days range reveals that the significant changes have taken place by this point to set up a colder, more wintry 9-16 day progression; the trough by the UK does not extend so far NW so there is less squeeze on the ridging across Greenland from that side, while the Canadian trough is displaying more of a splitting tendency against the SW tip of Greenland, which sees a secondary low undercutting the ridge that settles down over that island. That's only for a day or so but this is enough to seriously mess with the attempts of the Canadian vortex to advance into the N. Atlantic. This is all aided by better placement of the Arctic High.


These are all changes that depend heavily on the track of various LP systems beforehand and so are subject to much uncertainty, but these improvements from the 06z do at least increase the probability that the 00z runs were getting carried away with a small modification to the U.S. pattern taking place in the nearer-term. Fingers crossed! 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

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2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Stormchaser
07 December 2017 11:17:31

 


Couldn't resist - ARPEGE 06z a tad south of the 00z so the spread of possibilities continues to include more southern areas as well.


The timing of interaction with the trough to our NE is critical. The strength and position of that feature is also playing a role here so we've two major sources of uncertainty rather than one! 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Gandalf The White
07 December 2017 11:21:32


once the models agree on shifting the pv to Greenland, its game over unless we can get a scandi block in place


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


If the polar vortex sets up over Greenland you can forget about a Scandi block. The northern arm of the jet sinks or forces it back virtually every time.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Rob K
07 December 2017 11:30:58


 


If the polar vortex sets up over Greenland you can forget about a Scandi block. The northern arm of the jet sinks or forces it back virtually every time.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Not much sign of that happening though, for a while at least. We have almost all the ingredients for a cold spell in place... except the cold 


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Saint Snow
07 December 2017 11:31:02


A little further ahead and a comparison of the 00z and 06z GFS runs for 8 days range reveals that the significant changes have taken place by this point to set up a colder, more wintry 9-16 day progression; the trough by the UK does not extend so far NW so there is less squeeze on the ridging across Greenland from that side, while the Canadian trough is displaying more of a splitting tendency against the SW tip of Greenland, which sees a secondary low undercutting the ridge that settles down over that island. That's only for a day or so but this is enough to seriously mess with the attempts of the Canadian vortex to advance into the N. Atlantic. This is all aided by better placement of the Arctic High.


These are all changes that depend heavily on the track of various LP systems beforehand and so are subject to much uncertainty, but these improvements from the 06z do at least increase the probability that the 00z runs were getting carried away with a small modification to the U.S. pattern taking place in the nearer-term. Fingers crossed! 


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


 


A great read, great analysis James - many thanks for sharing your thoughts. Hopefully you've got this nailed (and the weather gods are in a benign mood this side of Xmas!)


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Gandalf The White
07 December 2017 11:34:35


 


Couldn't resist - ARPEGE 06z a tad south of the 00z so the spread of possibilities continues to include more southern areas as well.


The timing of interaction with the trough to our NE is critical. The strength and position of that feature is also playing a role here so we've two major sources of uncertainty rather than one! 


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


Isn't the extent of that wedge of upper heights near Greenland/Iceland also playing an initial role?


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Saint Snow
07 December 2017 11:37:20


 We have almost all the ingredients for a cold spell in place... except the cold 


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 




Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Quantum
07 December 2017 11:41:21

The OP 6Z run is probably in my top 5 deterministic GFS runs of all time.


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
fairweather
07 December 2017 11:49:35

GFS 06z  850 hPa ensemble for London is better than 00z especially in the longer term, below average in run up towards Christmas.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Quantum
07 December 2017 11:54:02

I've added fronts to the 6Z GFS output. This is for midday on Sunday



Snow will fall on the northern edge of the main occluded front with a mixture of rain,sleet and snow coming in behind. A secondary feature is also flirting with the SW coast although I suspect that will be all rain.


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Downpour
07 December 2017 11:56:20
Better news from the French model.

Low budged south.
Chingford
London E4
147ft
Rob K
07 December 2017 12:22:24


 


Couldn't resist - ARPEGE 06z a tad south of the 00z so the spread of possibilities continues to include more southern areas as well.


The timing of interaction with the trough to our NE is critical. The strength and position of that feature is also playing a role here so we've two major sources of uncertainty rather than one! 


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


 


Close-up view at T72:



 


Compared to the 78hr 00Z chart:



 


Meanwhile the ICON high-res chart is very different:



 


The leading edge low gets absorbed back into the main circulation and crosses southern Scotland.


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
polarwind
07 December 2017 12:26:46


This is our problem- HP over the Azores ruining the cold and snowy potential and modifying any northerly:



 


At least the PV is still split:



 


Also - Look how milder than average it is across Eastern Europe/Baltics into most of western and central Russia:


It';s only Siberia where the real cold stays put.



 


 


Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

It's the strong Azores high, ridging towards Newfoundland, that allows the jet to dive SE into Europe with a much increased chance of Arctic outbreaks - if it's weak and flabby, it often extends into Europe (Euro or Bartlett high) and sends warm SW winds over us and into the Arctic.


May the Azores high remain strong with ridging NW and repeatedly swinging and pointing towards Greenland to provide essentials for building the Greenland High.


"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
"If climate science is sound and accurate, then it should be able to respond effectively to all the points raised…." - Grandad
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
"A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”- Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat
Dave,Derby
Rob K
07 December 2017 12:28:10

Better news from the French model.

Low budged south.

Originally Posted by: Downpour 


And the high-res NOAA model has it much further north on the 06Z!



Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
johncs2016
07 December 2017 12:49:20


It's the strong Azores high, ridging towards Newfoundland, that allows the jet to dive SE into Europe with a much increased chance of Arctic outbreaks - if it's weak and flabby, it often extends into Europe (Euro or Bartlett high) and sends warm SW winds over us and into the Arctic.


May the Azores high remain strong with ridging NW and repeatedly swinging and pointing towards Greenland to provide essentials for building the Greenland High.


Originally Posted by: polarwind 


And May the Azores High swing in this direction of the UK once we get to next summer.


The north of Edinburgh, usually always missing out on snow events which occur not just within the rest of Scotland or the UK, but also within the rest of Edinburgh.
Rob K
07 December 2017 13:23:08

Talking of the Azores High, the NAO is forecast to head negative although there's a lot of uncertainty.


 



Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

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