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Solar Cycles
11 October 2018 08:54:26
I think the EC seasonals gets updated around the middle of the month so it will be interesting in seeing whether or not the blocked December/January is maintained in its outlook.
Russwirral
11 October 2018 09:02:56

I think the EC seasonals gets updated around the middle of the month so it will be interesting in seeing whether or not the blocked December/January is maintained in its outlook.

Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 


 


The way the charts are currently presenting - i wouldnt be surprised if a blocked November starts to show in the LRF's


Gray-Wolf
11 October 2018 09:08:54

We are certainly seeing our Atlantic storms 'mixing up' our atmosphere recently?


With all this energy floating around over the coming weeks we might expect our hemisphere to see some extreme weather events.


I'm still thinking that low solar/sea ice levels will leave us with a predominantly blocked winter?


Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
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Solar Cycles
11 October 2018 09:18:34


 


 


The way the charts are currently presenting - i wouldnt be surprised if a blocked November starts to show in the LRF's


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 

They're hinting at such a set up Russ, we could be looking at a very anticyclonic year come the end of 2018.

Chunky Pea
11 October 2018 09:47:31

I think the EC seasonals gets updated around the middle of the month so it will be interesting in seeing whether or not the blocked December/January is maintained in its outlook.

Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 


EC seasonal outlooks at this time of year nearly always show a blocked winter pattern ahead. I'd not take much heed of them to be honest. Fun to look at.. but that's about it. 


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Solar Cycles
11 October 2018 13:06:23


 


EC seasonal outlooks at this time of year nearly always show a blocked winter pattern ahead. I'd not take much heed of them to be honest. Fun to look at.. but that's about it. 


Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 

Agree, all seasonal modelling is JFF as Marcus says. Anything beyond the 7-10 day range whether monthly, seasonal or climatic are prone to huge errors....... Unless it’s cold and blocked with copious amounts of snow.

tallyho_83
11 October 2018 21:41:17


Interesting that it's mostly Average (white) or slightly above for the UK this winter - this could mean colder! Usually, Met Office over do the mild/warmth, but in this months update it seems to have edged a little colder for winter 2018/19!? - No light orange colors or dark oranges on the map anywhere in Europe. Just patches of yellow (slightly above normal). Meanwhile eastern seaboard esp the SE look colder than average. I wonder if the Met office are picking up on this approaching weak El Nino? Also no clear signal on above normal precipitation for the UK if anything it favours blocked weather? - The above average temps to north - north of Scandinavia (Svalbard) usually demotes blocking! This is for D,J,F anyway.


We are not looking at well above average temps, or above average - we (Uk are looking at average to perhaps slightly above at the very best1)


Next months Global long-range probability maps will prove crucial for how winter 2018/19 will turn out!?


Will we see this cooling trend continue?


 


Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Solar Cycles
12 October 2018 07:17:33



Interesting that it's mostly Average (white) or slightly above for the UK this winter - this could mean colder! Usually, Met Office over do the mild/warmth, but in this months update it seems to have edged a little colder for winter 2018/19!? - No light orange colors or dark oranges on the map anywhere in Europe. Just patches of yellow (slightly above normal). Meanwhile eastern seaboard esp the SE look colder than average. I wonder if the Met office are picking up on this approaching weak El Nino? Also no clear signal on above normal precipitation for the UK if anything it favours blocked weather? - The above average temps to north - north of Scandinavia (Svalbard) usually demotes blocking! This is for D,J,F anyway.


We are not looking at well above average temps, or above average - we (Uk are looking at average to perhaps slightly above at the very best1)


Next months Global long-range probability maps will prove crucial for how winter 2018/19 will turn out!?


Will we see this cooling trend continue?


 


Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

GLOSEA5 has been pretty dire for the last couple of winters, I suppose it’s no worse than any other long range model per se but it ranks pretty low in my estimations.

roger63
  • roger63
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
12 October 2018 09:34:06

A quick round up of key indicators.


1.ENSO


Awaiting latest NOAA discussion.The Mid September forecast was 65-70%  chance of a weak El Nino( 0.5-1.0) for the Northern Hemisphere winter.


I am not sure what this weak El Nino means in terms of winter temps.Any offers?


2.QBO


QBO heading  for transition to positive.I am very doubtful about links to winter weather type.I have not seen any figures that show significant correlation of QBO -winters to cold or QBO + winters to warm.On the face of it strong QBO +ve suggests a stronger than normal polar vortex and enhanced westerly flow.Any thoughts


3.SST's


There is a cooler than average band SST's stretching across the North Atlantic.However I don't really know what this suggests in term of winter circulation.Maybe HP Mid Atlantic?


4 Sunspot numbers


Last 3 months were 1.6,8.8,3.3.This is pretty low for this stage of the solar cycle with solar minimum in 2020.The suggested link is that around the solar minimum there is greater chance of  northern blocking with figures showing a slightly greater chance of this in the two years following solar minimum as well as the solar minim year itself.Any way we will in next five winters have a chance to see if more blocking does occur-a live experiment.

roger63
  • roger63
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
12 October 2018 09:36:11

Have looked at data on cold/blocked winters around solar minimum.


If we take the year of the solar minimum and the two years preceding and two years following this gives us five years to look at for each solar minimum A cold winter is counted if DJF CET is 3.5 and below.


This analysis gives the following results.


Solar minimum 1955 - cold winters 55,56


Solar minimum 1964 -cold winters 62,63,64,65.


Solar minimum 1977 -cold winters 77,79


Solar minimum 1986 -cold winters 85,86.87


Solar minimum 1997-cold winters 96


Solar minimum 2009 -cold winters 09,10,11


Solar minimum 2020?

Solar Cycles
12 October 2018 20:48:38
Thanks Roger, if not this winter I think within the next three we’ll see a well below average one for at least two of the three winter months.
picturesareme
14 October 2018 15:46:25


Have looked at data on cold/blocked winters around solar minimum.


If we take the year of the solar minimum and the two years preceding and two years following this gives us five years to look at for each solar minimum A cold winter is counted if DJF CET is 3.5 and below.


This analysis gives the following results.


Solar minimum 1955 - cold winters 55,56


Solar minimum 1964 -cold winters 62,63,64,65.


Solar minimum 1977 -cold winters 77,79


Solar minimum 1986 -cold winters 85,86.87


Solar minimum 1997-cold winters 96


Solar minimum 2009 -cold winters 09,10,11


Solar minimum 2020?


Originally Posted by: roger63 


This is somewhat incorrect though as we are already in the solar minimum. Also early signs of sunspot pole reversion have already been observed in this year indicating the start of solar cycle 25.


http://spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=26&month=08&year=2018


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cycle_25


 

roger63
  • roger63
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
15 October 2018 08:38:15

Graph of Sunspot Numbers


 


The latest forecast from the Australians suggests we still have  another year before solar minimum

picturesareme
15 October 2018 11:26:42


Graph of Sunspot Numbers


 


The latest forecast from the Australians suggests we still have  another year before solar minimum


Originally Posted by: roger63 


The fact is though is there have been at least 2 spots this year with reversed polarity, and this would suggest that sun cycle 25 has now begun - albeit very slowly. 

roger63
  • roger63
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
15 October 2018 11:51:01


 


The fact is though is there have been at least 2 spots this year with reversed polarity, and this would suggest that sun cycle 25 has now begun - albeit very slowly. 


Originally Posted by: picturesareme 


Picturesareme.d,oes that suggest that the solar minimum is likely shorter and less deep than is being suggested by the sunspot graph?

pdiddy
15 October 2018 12:07:49

What is the official definition of solar minimum? Is is it some switch in poles in the sun or fewest sunspots?


 

picturesareme
15 October 2018 12:30:31


 


Picturesareme.d,oes that suggest that the solar minimum is likely shorter and less deep than is being suggested by the sunspot graph?


Originally Posted by: roger63 


it would seem that even the experts don't really know for sure..


 https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/news/solar-cycle-24-status-and-solar-cycle-25-upcoming-forecast


But regardless of whether the transition to cycle 25 halts or steam rolls ahead over the coming months, one thing we can say for sure is cycle 24 saw far fewer spots then normal.

tallyho_83
15 October 2018 16:41:52
Comprenez vous?



I posted this in the media thread - just wondering what you think of this and what model they base their winter forecast 2018/19 on?

November looks good for Devon, Especially Exeter 😛 pause this at 0:37 secs!
Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Bertwhistle
15 October 2018 17:01:37

Comprenez vous?

https://youtu.be/T18NF1Kqgt8

I posted this in the media thread - just wondering what you think of this and what model they base their winter forecast 2018/19 on?

November looks good for Devon, Especially Exeter 😛 pause this at 0:37 secs!

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


Pause at 37 but then play again to get that snowflake!


Bertie, Itchen Valley.
Retire while you can still press the 'retire now' button.
tallyho_83
15 October 2018 23:55:06


 


Pause at 37 but then play again to get that snowflake!


Originally Posted by: Bertwhistle 


But your thoughts on forecast!?


Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


16 October 2018 20:48:27

The Arctic ice refreeze has been very slow this year. It has started to pick up the pace over the past few days. But currently the ice extent is on a par with 2007 and not far behind the exceptional year of 2012. Whether that, together with the relatively active tropical storm / hurricane season in the Atlantic, will have any impact on the weather patterns in the arctic in the coming weeks remains to be seen.


https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/charctic-interactive-sea-ice-graph/


The NAO has been consistently positive or close to zero since the middle of June. Latest output suggests it could go negative towards the end of October.


http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/pna/new.nao_index_ensm.html

16 October 2018 21:03:16

Referring back to my post below from the Sept CET thread it is interesting to note that of the three years that have all the following characteristics - CET for 21-30 Sept between 10.5C and 11.5C, very low solar activity and summer CET of 16C+, the CET for the start of October 2018 is also similar to these earlier three years.


The CET for 1-13 Oct is 13.09C by my calculations. Of the years in the table below there are not many warm Octobers. But the three matches I refer to above - 1878, 1807 and 1822, all three had warm starts to October.


1878 saw a CET of 12.63C to the 13th, 1807 had 12.99C and 1822 12.31C. None quite as warm as this year but still close enough.


All these years had very cold winters: 0.7C in 1878, 2.4C in 1807 and 1.5C in 1822. November was also very cold in two years but quite mild in 1822.


Worth noting, if I recall correctly, that 1878 is coming up a lot in Gavin P's winter analogues this year. It does seem to be a very good match indeed. That was one of the coldest winters on record. This is all speculative of course but interesting nonetheless.


Just looking at when the cold weather set in during those three years, in 1878 the CET went sub 5C on 29 October and apart from a handful of days in November and again in February it stayed below 5C until early March. There are signs of much colder weather potentially kicking in this year in the final few days of October.


In 1807 the cold did not really kick in until 8 November. In 1822 it was on 29 November. 



I did some further work on looking at the impact of cool late Septembers on the following winters. I have now extended the analysis back to 1800 and also included years where the CET for 21-30 Sept is 11.45C and below. The figure for this year is likely to be around 10.95C so the really cold late Septembers are not such a good match.


UserPostedImage


TABLE1


UserPostedImage


TABLE2


What this undated analysis shows is that although a cold end to September usually results in a very cold October, a somewhat less cold end to September actually results in October being less cold, although still below average. Where the late September CET is between 10.45C and 11.45C the following October comes in at 9.6C on average. Whereas if the late September CET is below 10.5C the following October comes in at 8.9C on average.


The extended analysis brings in a lot more years because there are many years in the first half of the 1800s that match the criteria. If we just look at the years with low solar activity we see that it does not make much difference compared to all the years put together. The exception is December which is much less cold, in fact slightly above average. January is also closer to average.


But if we consider years with very low solar activity, i.e. close to solar minimum we see a very different picture. December and January become very cold indeed, as does March. October is less cold and other months are largely unchanged. The data set for solar minimum years is actually reasonably large with 8 matching years having cool ends to September. They are 1808, 1824, 1809, 1822, 1807, 1888, 1878, 1811. The downside is all these years are a very long time ago and mostly in a small window between 1807 and 1824. So may not be a good comparison for today.


This updated list also has a much larger number of years with very warm summers. If we look at summers with a CET of 15.5C or more there is little difference to the overall average temperature by month. But if we look at years with 16C or more (there are 9 matches) we see that, as for low solar activity, December and January become very cold indeed and all months, apart from October are colder with an anomaly of at least 1.3C.


Combining years with a 16C+ summer CET and late September CET between 10.45C and 11.45C we have 6 matches. This shows an interesting trend. October is now slightly above average compared to the overall mean for all years which showed a negative anomaly of more than 1C. But November through to February all show very negative anomalies of 1.5C or more, with January at -3C. Finally if we add the low solar criteria (low rather than very low) we have just 3 matches. This includes one modern year, 1990, as well as two from long ago, 1878 and 1807. The data here are very stark. October is again just above average but all Nov, Dec, Jan and Mar all have negative anomalies of 2C or more, with December and January above 3C. The overall winter CET is just 1.6C. Now of course there are only 3 data points here and so this should be taken with a bit of a pinch of salt. 1990 is perhaps the year to focus on. This actually had a very mild Oct and Mar with an average Nov. The winter was cold though, especially February with the overall CET 1.5C below average for the winter. 1807 and 1878 were both incredibly cold from November right through to March.


So some interesting data there I think. Based on those years that are the closest match to 2018, the data would suggest that actually October may be a fairly average month. But after that things could turn quite cold and potentially stay that way for some time. All just for fun of course but interesting nonetheless.


Originally Posted by: Global Warming 

Dingle Rob
16 October 2018 21:23:50

Thanks for the tremendous analysis, GW. Makes for fascinating reading. Will be intriguing to see how the next 4 to 6 weeks pan out.

some faraway beach
16 October 2018 21:25:05
We're constricted, of course, when it comes to knowing what conditions prevailed in the months leading up to those epic pre-20th century winters. All we have, really, is CET and sunspots, I guess. So pattern-matching that far back is a bit of a shot in the dark, but we might as well make use of the data we do have, and see how it works out.

At the very least it offers a bit of excitement at this stage, so thanks for sharing your work, GW.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Solar Cycles
17 October 2018 07:56:53


 


But your thoughts on forecast!?


Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

Looks great from a coldies  perspective, heights to out NE extending towards Greenland with a southerly tracking jet attacking the SW of the country in November then  an Easterly flow for December with  the Atlantic trying to break through from the West but stalling against the block, all the while heights are lower over the Med to prop up the +height anomalies to the north......... Now what could possibly go wrong  from here on.

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