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Devonian
17 May 2020 21:01:22


 


So how do you propose to lift people out of poverty? How are you going to provide the energy they need? Why aren't XR (you) prepared to lower your living standards and consumption to the level of billions of people across the world. 


 


 


Originally Posted by: Northern Sky 


Well, I guess, given your previous comments, you think I want to lift them out of poverty by making them poorer... I mean, wtf is the point in talking with you what that is your attitude?..


Do you know what the phrase I used 'make the world a better place' means? Why twist is so.


No! No one in XR wants to keep the poor poor. Its shows the grubby level of the opposition to them that the 'best' lines of attack you have is to pick out the 'middle class' (I mean, are you also despoiled by knowing someone, just an odd exception to your debating purity will do it, who is 'middle class'?) or shriek 'hypocrisy!' when you scrabble about in a haystack and find the one, lone, needle; or try to make out they want to keep people poor.


It's pathetic


 

Saint Snow
17 May 2020 21:04:04


So how do you propose to lift people out of poverty? How are you going to provide the energy they need? Why aren't XR (you) prepared to lower your living standards and consumption to the level of billions of people across the world. 


Originally Posted by: Northern Sky 


 


At present, the bulk of the proceeds of production (production that leads to increased GHG's) does not flow into the pockets of the workers who live in poverty.


The most vital step toward lifting people out of poverty is the exclusion of both multinational corporations and existing indigenous financial elite in the ownership of enterprises that use natural resources. Worker cooperatives and owner-managed small businesses are how to most efficiently lift masses out of poverty.


On the same theme, government/official corruption also drags $billions each year from the hands of those who live in poverty, as scumbags in office abuse their positions to siphon off money into their own coffers. Nepotism is also a massive problem.


Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Devonian
17 May 2020 21:08:36


 


 


We get one chance at life; four-score and twenty years give or take. After that, nothing. Our brains - and therefore minds and consciousness - cease to function and we become urn-ballast or worm food.


So whilst meandering through our lives, what is wrong with a bit of wanting a bit of fun, a bit of luxury, a bit of excess?


I think most people know very well the difference between 'need' and 'want'. They just don't want an existence that only fulfils needs and ignores wants.


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


At about 3pm today I was sat watching: a pair of stone chats, a pair of linnets, a pair of whitethroats, a willow warbler and a single yellow hammer at a beautiful, magical even, bit of scrubby moorland a bike ride from my home. I could hear the chat chastise me for being near his nest, the whitethroats churred, the the sky was blue, bluebells were still evident, gorse flowers and scent evident, the wind warm and gentle. Bliss.


If that's not enough 'need' or 'want' 'excess' or 'luxury' enough then either there is something wrong me or with millions of others. Clue; its not me with the problem.

Northern Sky
17 May 2020 21:08:59


 


NS, perhaps there are no answers, except to fulfill a self-affirming need to demonstrate, much as the Vietnam Solidarity Campaign did in the 60s. There will be something reassuringly worse to worry about by the time today's infants reach 20. Vietnam's doing rather well now - but is it thanks to the VSC?


R.


Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 


The thing is Roger I think there are answers. I've loved the silence and the birdsong of lockdown, I would love people to reconnect with nature and preserve instead of destroy. Where I differ from Dev (and it appears Justin) is that I think we have to use solutions that have a chance of working in the real world, rather than a fantasy that is almost always based on hypocrisy. 


There are solutions that are possible so if we want less cars on the roads we don't need to stop people working, we need to find ways of using technology so people are able to work from home. Maybe we can learn lessons from this, maybe we don't need to fly to Italy for a meeting when it can be done just as easily online. 


I don't think we can or should stop economic growth but we can and should change the way we manage the resources we use. 

Essan
17 May 2020 21:09:16


We get one chance at life; four-score and twenty years give or take. After that, nothing. Our brains - and therefore minds and consciousness - cease to function and we become urn-ballast or worm food.


So whilst meandering through our lives, what is wrong with a bit of wanting a bit of fun, a bit of luxury, a bit of excess?


I think most people know very well the difference between 'need' and 'want'. They just don't want an existence that only fulfils needs and ignores wants.


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 




And thus they spend their lives in misery (just look at all the very rich people who still want more and suffer depression .... )

Need isn't necessarily just about having the basics for survival   But want is rarely if ever achieved.   The more you have the more you want - and the more your see others have, the more you think you need (and the more you despise those who have what you do not have).  The key to happiness is knowing the difference.   And accepting that actually, you don't need all you want.

Poor man wanna be rich
Rich man wanna be king
King ain't satisfied till he owns everything

As The Boss once said

(all totally off topic, and all IMO, of course)

Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Saint Snow
17 May 2020 21:09:48


 


NS, perhaps there are no answers, except to fulfill a self-affirming need to demonstrate, much as the Vietnam Solidarity Campaign did in the 60s. There will be something reassuringly worse to worry about by the time today's infants reach 20. Vietnam's doing rather well now - but is it thanks to the VSC?


R.


Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 


 


The VSC (and other opposition groups across the world) brought to public attention to evil being committed by the US, exposing the reality of the war that was being, if not censored then studiously ignored by the British MSM.


I guess a more pertinent, recent and effective example of a 'self-affirming need to demonstrate' () is the opposition of the repugnant Apartheid regime in South Africa. Condemned widely - curiously enough by right-wing Tory types like Maunder - at the time, but which ultimately helped turn global pressure onto the regime and causing it to backtrack.


Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Northern Sky
17 May 2020 21:12:10


 


Well, I guess, given your previous comments, you think I want to lift them out of poverty by making them poorer... I mean, wtf is the point in talking with you what that is your attitude?..


Do you know what the phrase I used 'make the world a better place' means? Why twist is so.


No! No one in XR wants to keep the poor poor. Its shows the grubby level of the opposition to them that the 'best' lines of attack you have is to pick out the 'middle class' (I mean, are you also despoiled by knowing someone, just an odd exception to your debating purity will do it, who is 'middle class'?) or shriek 'hypocrisy!' when you scrabble about in a haystack and find the one, lone, needle; or try to make out they want to keep people poor.


It's pathetic


 


Originally Posted by: Devonian 


Just answer the question(s) it would be far more productive.

Saint Snow
17 May 2020 21:14:48


 


At about 3pm today I was sat watching: a pair of stone chats, a pair of linnets, a pair of whitethroats, a willow warbler and a single yellow hammer at a beautiful, magical even, bit of scrubby moorland a bike ride from my home. I could hear the chat chastise me for being near his nest, the whitethroats churred, the the sky was blue, the wind warm and gentle. Bliss.


If that's not enough 'need' or 'want' excess or luxury then either there is something wrong me or with millions of others. Clue; its not me with the problem.


Originally Posted by: Devonian 


 


Peter, it's marvellous that you get your contentment from such things, and I wouldn't want to foist a pleasure deemed to be 'commercial' onto you that you didn't find enjoyable.


But I'm sure you'll appreciate that we are all different and all get our metaphorical kicks from different things.


On Friday evening, I went on a motorway for the first time in about 6 weeks. Just before I turned onto the sliproad, I flicked the car into 'sport mode' and floored it, going from 20'ish to 80 in around 5 seconds. I literally smiled at the sensation, the unleashing of the power, the itching of a scratch. I wouldn't expect you for one second to find that anything to get happy about. But as I said, we like different things.


Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Essan
17 May 2020 21:16:42


 At about 3pm today I was sat watching: a pair of stone chats, a pair of linnets, a pair of whitethroats, a willow warbler and a single yellow hammer at a beautiful, magical even, bit of scrubby moorland a bike ride from my home. I could hear the chat chastise me for being near his nest, the whitethroats churred, the the sky was blue, the wind warm and gentle. Bliss.


If that's not enough 'need' or 'want' excess or luxury then either there is something wrong me or with millions of others. Clue; its not me with the problem.


Originally Posted by: Devonian 






I don't have the benefit of quite such a variety of birdlife here.  But watching the fledgling robins bathe in the water bath I put out for them, whist the sparrows and a blackbird take their turn to have a drink or a wash, is worth a platinum selling record, to me.


I do hope that some people have used this lockdown to discover such joys.  Which people may not want, but may perhaps need ....  Far more than a Costa Coffee or a even a holiday in Majorca.  I have noticed more people walking in the countryside round here.  Which is good.

Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Devonian
17 May 2020 21:17:11


 


Just answer the question(s) it would be far more productive.


Originally Posted by: Northern Sky 


It would be far more productive if you didn't, first, try to slur people like me with your 'want to keep the poor poor' bull.

Northern Sky
17 May 2020 21:21:10


 


It would be far more productive if you didn't, first, try to slur people like me with your 'want to keep the poor poor' bull.


Originally Posted by: Devonian 


But it's not bull, it's the exact consequence of your and XR's 'solutions'. You and they might well want to brush that under the carpet but I'm sorry there's no getting away from it.

Devonian
17 May 2020 21:23:12


 


 


Peter, it's marvellous that you get your contentment from such things, and I wouldn't want to foist a pleasure deemed to be 'commercial' onto you that you didn't find enjoyable.


But I'm sure you'll appreciate that we are all different and all get our metaphorical kicks from different things.


On Friday evening, I went on a motorway for the first time in about 6 weeks. Just before I turned onto the sliproad, I flicked the car into 'sport mode' and floored it, going from 20'ish to 80 in around 5 seconds. I literally smiled at the sensation, the unleashing of the power, the itching of a scratch. I wouldn't expect you for one second to find that anything to get happy about. But as I said, we like different things.


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


Mostly you're top bloke


People have different likes. That's fine. It's when, instead of making way for all of them, some likes barge others out of the way that I bridle.

Devonian
17 May 2020 21:24:12


 


But it's not bull, it's the exact consequence of your and XR's 'solutions'. You and they might well want to brush that under the carpet but I'm sorry there's no getting away from it.


Originally Posted by: Northern Sky 


Bollox.


Goodnight

Northern Sky
17 May 2020 21:32:53


 


Bollox.


Goodnight


Originally Posted by: Devonian 


Goodnight to you too. Perhaps while you're drifting off to sleep you could think about how you are going to stop billions of people aspiring to the living standards you currently enjoy - and consuming the energy required to do that?


I'd be genuinely interested in your answer. 


 

Justin W
17 May 2020 22:03:17


 


Says the most sanctimonious poster on TWO. Tell me what answers you think XR have?


 


Originally Posted by: Northern Sky 


You have no answers. You never have. You spend your life carping about democracy and the climate and poverty. But do precisely f4ck all about any of it.


And don’t lecture me about sanctimony. Your bewildering cant on Brexit was a masterclass in student bar whataboutery.

Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
NickR
17 May 2020 22:13:51





Whereas you presume to know everything about me and anyone else whom you disagree with.

Pot Kettle Black



And in case you didn't know it, you touched a nerve too.  And not for the first time 



Originally Posted by: Essan 


I don't presume anything. All I did was comment on what you yourself had said: that you were poor. You, on the other hand..


 

Nick
Durham
[email protected]
Northern Sky
17 May 2020 22:24:13


 


You have no answers. You never have. You spend your life carping about democracy and the climate and poverty. But do precisely f4ck all about any of it.


And don’t lecture me about sanctimony. Your bewildering cant on Brexit was a masterclass in student bar whataboutery.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


That's not really an answer to my question. In fact I'm not really sure what it is.


 

The Beast from the East
17 May 2020 23:34:59

"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Roger Parsons
18 May 2020 05:09:07


 


 


The VSC (and other opposition groups across the world) brought to public attention to evil being committed by the US, exposing the reality of the war that was being, if not censored then studiously ignored by the British MSM.


I guess a more pertinent, recent and effective example of a 'self-affirming need to demonstrate' () is the opposition of the repugnant Apartheid regime in South Africa. Condemned widely - curiously enough by right-wing Tory types like Maunder - at the time, but which ultimately helped turn global pressure onto the regime and causing it to backtrack.


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


I agree that lobbying has sometimes worked and agree with the optimism that you and NS express and hope for. However, I put little hope in the latest batch of zealots and see no reason to trust them more or less that the media or politicians. A way forward will be eventually found, and a variety of players and contributors will be involved.


R.

RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830

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