Remove ads from site

Rob K
06 December 2020 23:31:50


I must be honest and say I'm starting to get that sinking feeling about December. I'm now wondering whether the month could come in (just for a change) above CET. Most winter forecasts - including the one I issued on TWO - have gone for December being the coldest month of the winter. Flip side of the coin is that things could quickly change!


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Both could very well turn out to be true, of course. (December being above average but also being the coldest month of the winter.)


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." β€” Jerome K. Jerome
Gandalf The White
06 December 2020 23:42:32

Finally... a run where you could say it looks cold into FI... (but no snow)

Totally against the run of form...

Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


I guess it depends on when you regard the 'form' as starting. It was only recently that blocked runs were being thrown out quite regularly.


The only obvious conclusion at the moment is that the behaviour of the atmosphere more than a few days ahead is proving difficult to predict.


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Phil24
06 December 2020 23:53:27
Strange really, most mammals come out of hibernation in spring. But I admit to being a winter freak and make no excuses.

Hi all, hopefully I’ll be able to add a little different perspective to your debates over the next few weeks.

Now I wonder, maybe an SSW late Dec early Jan. πŸ˜‰
Russwirral
07 December 2020 00:15:33


 


I guess it depends on when you regard the 'form' as starting. It was only recently that blocked runs were being thrown out quite regularly.


The only obvious conclusion at the moment is that the behaviour of the atmosphere more than a few days ahead is proving difficult to predict.


 


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


 


But this has been my point for a week now. 


 


We have lots of blocking... but the positioning and lack of cold air is just wasted


 


Its starting to become a bit of a problem we need to flush away... its blocking mild atlantic air but its blocking the cold air too...


tallyho_83
07 December 2020 00:18:15

Strange really, most mammals come out of hibernation in spring. But I admit to being a winter freak and make no excuses.

Hi all, hopefully I’ll be able to add a little different perspective to your debates over the next few weeks.

Now I wonder, maybe an SSW late Dec early Jan. πŸ˜‰

Originally Posted by: Phil24 


 


Possibly!? The models have been playing around with this idea of a warming ot SSW occurring over Siberia and pushing into the Arctic region for a while now at the end of FI:


Could all change but the theme has been consistent IE- seeing a warming of the stratosphere from the middle of December!?







Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Gandalf The White
07 December 2020 00:36:43


 


 


Possibly!? The models have been playing around with this idea of a warming ot SSW occurring over Siberia and pushing into the Arctic region for a while now at the end of FI:


Could all change but the theme has been consistent IE- seeing a warming of the stratosphere from the middle of December!?


 


Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


That looks like the typical gentle warming that occurs every winter; certainly it doesn’t fit the definition of a SSW, which is for much greater warming in just a couple of days: it’s like a sudden shock being injected into the stratosphere which then propagates down into the troposphere.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Tom Oxon
07 December 2020 00:52:08


 


 


But this has been my point for a week now. 


 


We have lots of blocking... but the positioning and lack of cold air is just wasted


 


Its starting to become a bit of a problem we need to flush away... its blocking mild atlantic air but its blocking the cold air too...


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


I think a pattern change yes, flushing it with the Atlantic can quickly turn into an 8 week toilet of wet, wind and mild.


 


What certainly does need to happen is troughing into the East - we need a Greenie and go from there.  Ural Highs aren't really getting us anywhere further than seasonal.



T/O.


S Warwickshire countryside, c.375ft asl.
Retron
07 December 2020 05:23:37
A lovely festive run from GFS this morning, with snow on the ground across most of the UK on the 23rd December. Of course, it's meaningless but it's nice to see on a foggy Monday morning!
Leysdown, north Kent
White Meadows
07 December 2020 05:45:44

A lovely festive run from GFS this morning, with snow on the ground across most of the UK on the 23rd December. Of course, it's meaningless but it's nice to see on a foggy Monday morning!

Originally Posted by: Retron 

Strange how it does not fit with the ensembles suite however: 


https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?model=gfs&lid=ENS&var=2&bw=1&geoid=49069


Doesn’t get much worse than this.

White Meadows
07 December 2020 05:50:07
Met office still plugging the cold theme in their update this morning, with snow to lower levels in the south later on in December. That crystal ball really must be dirty.
ballamar
07 December 2020 06:52:36
Pleasant surprise to see that GFS run, now that would be festive and ruin a few plans! Which would be in keeping with 2020 as a whole. Again shows how quickly it can get cold even if it’s not there at present
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
07 December 2020 07:00:35

Jetstream continuing to throw a big loop to the S in the Atlantic before  weak N'ly return over W Europe and as the week progresses more emphasis on the S'ly stream. Another loop forms  to the S on Mon 14th followed by a chaotic week with bits of jet flying everywhere, but always with the more coherent branches to the S of UK and often into the eastern Med.


GFS - Any prediction of HP shown yesterday has disappeared so confidence must remain low. For this week, a trough of LP pokes in from the NW and is renewed from time to time by more Atlantic input. Next week more movement, with LP passing Scotland Wed 16th with SW'lies for most and another LP in SW approaches with S'lies Fri 18th. These two eventually link up with major LP over Russia and on Wed 23rd this set-up feeds E'lies from a cold source over southern UK and HP 1040mb Orkney (cf Retron's comment above)


GEFS - temps rising slowly to a degree or two above norm around Tue 15th and mean of runs falling back to just below norm Wed 23rd (but the op run is a notable cold outlier, as above, 10C below). Small amounts of rain throughout plus a few extra spikes in N Scotland at first and in SW England later.


ECM - tends to keep LP out to the NW though it does promote a trough S'wards Sat 14th, and then back to LP off NW Scotland Tue 15th. For the last couple of days of the run, pressure pattern over NW Europe has no real definition.


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Heavy Weather 2013
07 December 2020 07:18:55
I was fearing the worst during the 0z when I run it through, it boy it deceivers at the end. Yes it’s too far away, but nice to actually get an exciting run for once.

Meanwhile today. Service cold here in the SE will me it feel Brrrrrr.
Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
Russwirral
07 December 2020 08:15:10
another decent end to the GFS

this after a week or so of failing to create any cold... hopefully this continues
07 December 2020 08:22:29

Met office still plugging the cold theme in their update this morning, with snow to lower levels in the south later on in December. That crystal ball really must be dirty.

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 


Perhaps they should be changing it every 6 hours in line with the GFS? 


Malcolm UserPostedImage
Wakefield & Gothenburg, SWE
Gandalf The White
07 December 2020 09:09:23


Strange how it does not fit with the ensembles suite however: 


https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?model=gfs&lid=ENS&var=2&bw=1&geoid=49069


Doesn’t get much worse than this.


Originally Posted by: White Meadows 


Oh, it can be a lot worse than this; as you well know.


Synoptically the Op run isn't that far out of line with a good few ensemble members; I was pleasantly surprised to see how many have blocked or largely blocked evolutions and how many feature a strong Arctic high. Of course, getting all the pieces into the right place is the issue: the Op does that but several others get close.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
07 December 2020 09:12:11

Met office still plugging the cold theme in their update this morning, with snow to lower levels in the south later on in December. That crystal ball really must be dirty.

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 


Or maybe your crystal ball isn't as good?


GFS 00z mean 500 hPa anomaly chart at Day 10 shows quite a decent signal for higher pressure to our north and NE.



Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Ally Pally Snowman
07 December 2020 11:12:44

6z gfs  not as spectacular as the 0z  but still ends with significant  blocking again . We need some luck as ever in the UK but the Christmas period is looking pretty good for some very seasonal weather. Best chance of a proper white Christmas for many a year.


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
ballamar
07 December 2020 11:35:29
He link just misses on this occasion but still fairly promising for the end. Hopefully will be festive weather for the big day
White Meadows
07 December 2020 11:58:43


 


Or maybe your crystal ball isn't as good?


GFS 00z mean 500 hPa anomaly chart at Day 10 shows quite a decent signal for higher pressure to our north and NE.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

I don’t have one, but the 06z is another westerly run to p1ss on their Christmas turkey. 

Ally Pally Snowman
07 December 2020 12:05:58

Lots of blocking in the gefs 6z not always in the right place for UK though but no sign of anything zonal.


P18 ,P23,P26, P27 and P28 are very cold. 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Rob K
07 December 2020 13:16:53
Finally a couple of runs dipping below -10C (P18 and P23) but generally the GEFS are looking pretty devoid of festive cheer with the next two days the coldest we'll see until Christmas at least (on the balance of probabilities).
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." β€” Jerome K. Jerome
nsrobins
07 December 2020 13:25:23


Lots of blocking in the gefs 6z not always in the right place for UK though but no sign of anything zonal.


P18 ,P23,P26, P27 and P28 are very cold. 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


P18 would surpass any severe spell since the early 90s IMO.


As in any winter model watching season, it’s all about sifting the genuine signals from the noise. You’ll always get a smattering of Stella runs in any ENS set, especially now there are 30 GFS perturbations and the ECM available. The trick is to identify if any of the more ‘favourable’ solutions (and remember, the Operational is always preferred to any of it’s ensemble siblings in isolation) are a genuine sign of a particular synoptic forecast or just ripples on the lake. And to assist that process you need to look at the background signals that may be influencing those solutions - MJO, AAM, u-wind trends, strat temps, etc. This is where you need to make judgements and assign a degree of confidence on whether the extended range offered by any particular model seems plausible or not whether it makes sense given the above - and other - known parameters. The computers of course take these and many other parameters into account to churn out their solutions but it’s rare to achieve above 85% accuracy at 5 days and much less at 10 days so anyone saying it will definitely be this or that in two weeks is at best guessing. 
The best even a hugely experienced forecaster can hope to achieve is an ‘idea’ of the set up in two weeks and that’s where means can be useful - to spot rough trends. That’s why I council against taking individual runs in isolation. It’s nice art but very unlikely to be a solution.


Now I’ve forgotten where this post was heading πŸ˜‚β˜ΊοΈ


 


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Rob K
07 December 2020 13:42:08
The general theme seems to be high pressure to our north and also to the south across Europe, with a window of low pressure in between. The variations are in how far each belt of high pressure extends north and south, which affects the UK weather greatly.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." β€” Jerome K. Jerome
Ally Pally Snowman
07 December 2020 13:45:57

P18 is indeed a beauty.  


I just think there is room for optimism at the moment . ECM ensembles have a lot of blocking in the 11 -15 day zone. Gfs seemingly also picking up this signal now. It wouldn't surprise me if the output gets significantly better over the next couple of days. 


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.

Remove ads from site

Ads