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Rob K
09 December 2020 13:22:19
https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/runs/2020120906/gens-1-1-336.png 

Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
moomin75
09 December 2020 13:36:54


 


Thanks, didn't know you had this functionality on TWO now, I will bookmark it.


Hope that the 06Z GFS run isn't too representative of the ensembles though 


Originally Posted by: Rob K 

Was one of the milder runs but within a pack.


Has to be said, very slim pickings from the Ensembles just now, but while the pattern remains unusual, I will continue to be optimistic. Christmas Day is out at 384 hours today so PLENTY of time for improvement.


Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
Russwirral
09 December 2020 14:30:32

yeh - I think we will need a xmas Miracle to get anything other than wet weather in the charts for the next 2-3weeks


Starting to look alot like 2014 with lots of small intense features eddying their way across the UK.


2014 was a stinker btw


 


Dee Estuary News January 2014


Russwirral
09 December 2020 14:34:09

Total rainfall for UK looks very similar to the areas that had issues in 2014 (was it the Fens that hadnt been dredged?)


 



Rob K
09 December 2020 14:43:37
Still some chance of snow for Christmas - until these charts go totally blank for the lowland UK I will hold on to some hope!

https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gensp/runs/2020120906/gensprob-26-384.png 

Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
fairweather
09 December 2020 15:58:03


 


I disagree on several points, Ian.


First, it is not about timing or trigger lows any more than it has ever been.


Second, the persistence of high pressure to the East is a common feature of winter synoptics: it's about that balance between the jetstream and the block.  Nothing can change  geography: we sit with a warm ocean to the west and potentially cold land mass to the east.


It has always been the case that we need the jetstream to play ball to get sustained cold to our corner of NW Europe.  The underlying climate change signal is making the odds slightly worse with the passing of time but that's it.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


I see the block to the East as more of a problem. It seems to becoming a warmer block year on year. Until the Continent gets cold we are only likely to get short transient cold spells.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
fairweather
09 December 2020 16:00:57


 


 


I was going to say - 63% chance of it being between -4c and 0c isn't bad for Xmas eve!? BUT OH so frustrating it's the 850's.


Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


Surely nobody that's been looking at the charts leading up to Christmas could ever have thought they might be 2m temperatures?


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Col
  • Col
  • Advanced Member
09 December 2020 16:10:31


 


Surely nobody that's been looking at the charts leading up to Christmas could ever have thought they might be 2m temperatures?


Originally Posted by: fairweather 


Not seriously I would imagine. I did something of a double take after looking at the figures and checked what they were actually were!


Col
Bolton, Lancashire
160m asl
Snow videos:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3QvmL4UWBmHFMKWiwYm_gg
ballamar
09 December 2020 16:22:41
Split PV Arctic high lows looking like they want to slide - what could go wrong!! Oh yes damn Azores and Euro stubborn highs deflecting over us to stall in milder air. Let’s hope this can be broken.
idj20
09 December 2020 16:39:23

Still some chance of snow for Christmas - until these charts go totally blank for the lowland UK I will hold on to some hope!

https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gensp/runs/2020120906/gensprob-26-384.png

Originally Posted by: Rob K 




Folkestone Harbour. 
Ally Pally Snowman
09 December 2020 16:55:14

Just a incredible amounts of HLB on both the GEM and the GFS but we can't seem to get the cold to the UK. Frustrating!


European high getting in the way we need an Italian low pressure.


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
ballamar
09 December 2020 17:03:00
Interest for Xmas notched up on this 1 run!
Jeff
  • Jeff
  • Advanced Member
09 December 2020 17:15:57

Afternoon all on TWO.


This post is about the models output, so bear with me, as this could probably also be posted in the Nostalgia thread. It is also the musings of an interested amateur, so those with professional experience, either actual or accumulated through even greater obsession than most on this forum, please go easy on me....


I have been watching the weather since I can remember, which for those of a similar vintage, meant Jack Scott. I grew up in the North West and chose college in Yorkshire because during the 70s (particularly 1979) as it seemed that Yorkshire always got the most snow. I was rewarded by the winters of 84/85, 85/86 and 86/87. I took a job back in the Northwest, but moved to the Southeast in the late 80s (where I am now). 


The beauty and strength of modern forecasting models is also their curse. In my childhood, you had to watch Farming Today on Sundays to get an idea of a longer term forecast so we never got any more than around 5 or 6 days' notice of real cold and snow, and that wasn't reliable either. 


It seems that now, we exprience winters the are both the real (i.e. the "seasonal" damp and chill we are experiencing down here today) and also winters in an imaginary future. However, the sophisticated graphics and computer power behind them makes the imaginary seem so real and so compelling, that when the models change (or “flip” like many like to say - although they very rarely actually "flip"), we cold fans feel a sense of depression and dejection for something that was "promised" to arrive in the real world, is cruelly snatched away.


Its no longer science predicting a warming world but it is here for us all to see around us (or choose not to see in some cases). However, the full climatic consequences of this warming world, and feedback mechanisms, including changing synoptics, are less clear. So onto today's models...


For me, December as a winter month appeared to be changing. Other than a few days of sleet, hail and snow showers, November and even December (in my recollection I hasten to add before anyone posts stats to the contrary), were generally mobile, westerly months which rarely produced several days of real cold and lying snow in the North west of England. Proper cold spells came in January or February, sometimes from the north, but usually from the east. The big stand out anomaly for me was December 1981, dominated by low pressure and persistent airmasses from an arctic. But it was a one off, or so I thought.


Then came the December of 2009 (which went on into Jan 2010) and December 2010, both experienced by me in the Southeast of England (but similar elsewhere, the latter depositing the deepest undrifted lying snow I have ever seen in lowland UK. My hunch then was that winters (and early winter in particular) were changing. A warming world, particularly the arctic, is leading to the long-term decline of the power of the late autumn jet stream.


And, actually, I think this December is no different and the signs for other recent previous Decembers have also been there, but what cold air was around, missed us. However, what I also think is irrefutably different, is the increasingly problematical access - or even close proximity to - genuinely cold air in December (by that I mean 850s of -10 or colder).


Its clearly around - just look at the Northern Hemisphere charts - but it is much less widespread and in different places than it used to be. This is almost certainly the work of summer ice melt and heat accumulating and then taking time to dissipate in northern landmasses through summer. I wish I had the programming knowledge to throw a net over the winter months and establish a geographical representation (KM2) of the extent of -10 850s (or colder) for the Decembers of today verses previous decades. I am convinced this will show a significant decline over the last 30 years. When you are bored, just take a look at the 850 archives, even allowing for their estimation in early years


I think the synoptics of the last week are a great case in point. I think someone on here called them four cylinder synoptics with a three cylinder outcome, or similar. Even allowing the little transient snow that a number of areas experienced, would these synoptics have delivered an altogether different weather outcome 30 or 40 years ago?


We will have severe cold again, and it will come again in December, but the frequency of it coming and its duration, will continue to diminish. I think the same is true for the Death of the Midwinter Easterly – we could have a similar debate. It will be back, but not as often as it used to visit.


 


Jeff


On the East/West Sussex Border
70m ASL
Ally Pally Snowman
09 December 2020 18:19:28

Some crazy GEFS on the 12z . Huge amounts of HLB many get the cold in by Christmas Eve!


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
GTurner
09 December 2020 18:21:36


Some crazy GEFS on the 12z . Huge amounts of HLB many get the cold in by Christmas Eve!


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


 


Hi AP,


Can you share the link to the GFS that you you refer to?


Cheers, 


Formally 'SpeedyG - the friend of the Schaf' (who can remember that far back)
Based in Kent, London and Suffolk
Rob K
09 December 2020 18:37:20
https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/runs/2020120912/gens-5-1-372.png 

P4 is none too shabby either.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Ally Pally Snowman
09 December 2020 18:41:23


 


 


Hi AP,


Can you share the link to the GFS that you you refer to?


Cheers, 


Originally Posted by: GTurner 


 


Here you go! It's all available on TWO as well. The link is to P28 and a snowy Christmas Eve.


 


https://www.wetterzentrale.de/de/topkarten.php?map=1&model=gfs&var=2&time=360&run=12&lid=P28&h=0&tr=6&mv=0


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Gandalf The White
09 December 2020 18:52:22


P1 also delivers a white Christmas for southern areas - Midlands south.


P26 and P28 are also encouraging.


Overall, having waded through all 30 for Xmas Eve and Xmas Day, there are a good number of Easterlies and Northerlies of varying intensities and few mild options. Encouragingly quite a few have the Arctic High and a split PV at some stage in the evolution but quite a few break down into various patterns, including a fee mobile patterns and several with high pressure over the continent or over the UK.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


doctormog
09 December 2020 18:52:31
I guess potential deep in FI is better than no potential deep in FI. Hopefully for those who want a White Christmas the trend for that time period will continue. It is beyond the reaches of most models so the next few days/week will be key to see if there is support for what is being hinted at. Before then, in the more reliable time, things look a bit milder than recently and a bit soggy.
marco 79
09 December 2020 18:58:37
Yesterdays 12z...7 ENS -5C Or under...today's 12z..5 Ens under -5c....looking at 24th Dec..and focus on N.Midlands...
Home : Mid Leicestershire ...135m ASL
Jeff
  • Jeff
  • Advanced Member
09 December 2020 19:10:03

The Arctic High is surely a thing of beauty on the 240 ECM NH view


https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=2&model=ecm&var=2&run=12&time=240&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=24#mapref


 


 


 


On the East/West Sussex Border
70m ASL
Ally Pally Snowman
09 December 2020 19:11:53


The Arctic High is surely a thing of beauty on the 240 ECM NH view


https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=2&model=ecm&var=2&run=12&time=240&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=24#mapref


 


 


 


Originally Posted by: Jeff 


 


It is but it's a painfully long journey to UK cold. 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Jeff
  • Jeff
  • Advanced Member
09 December 2020 19:46:39


 


 


It is but it's a painfully long journey to UK cold. 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


If you run the ECM NH sequence between T96 and T168, you can see both the movement of this huge, impressive high, and also the effect of how at the surface air subsides within high pressure and rises in low pressure and consequentially how air close to the surface (including the 850s) moves outwards and southwards from high to low (instead of being trapped by the vortex), twisted to the right by the Coriolis of course. Progress is forecast ) to be halted after this but - and its just one of many forecasts - note how the very cold air is now much better distributed around the main NH landmasses, and in a much better position to be available and accessed over the next few weeks both at lower latitudes and by more maritime climes, including ours, should the synoptic pieces fall together. Meanwhile the high in situ over the pole will continue to "manufacture" deep cold through outgoing radiation over ice. Simples.   


On the East/West Sussex Border
70m ASL
marting
09 December 2020 19:50:44

ECM 12z average has higher heights to our north this evening, heading in right direction for cold.


 


Martin


Martin
Greasby, Wirral.
doctormog
09 December 2020 19:57:11


ECM 12z average has higher heights to our north this evening, heading in right direction for cold.


 


Martin


Originally Posted by: marting 


Yes it is certainly an interesting mean



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