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Shropshire
09 December 2020 19:57:17


ECM 12z average has higher heights to our north this evening, heading in right direction for cold.


 


Martin


Originally Posted by: marting 


Certainly a big +ve ensemble height mean over the Pole. But getting the pieces to fall into place from the projected pattern is another thing entirely.


From December 27th 2020, zonality will be banned from mixing with the UK. We appreciate that this may come as a shock to younger people and old Uncle Barty. This ban will last for a minimum of ten days.
haghir22
09 December 2020 20:08:17


Afternoon all on TWO.


This post is about the models output, so bear with me, as this could probably also be posted in the Nostalgia thread. It is also the musings of an interested amateur, so those with professional experience, either actual or accumulated through even greater obsession than most on this forum, please go easy on me....


I have been watching the weather since I can remember, which for those of a similar vintage, meant Jack Scott. I grew up in the North West and chose college in Yorkshire because during the 70s (particularly 1979) as it seemed that Yorkshire always got the most snow. I was rewarded by the winters of 84/85, 85/86 and 86/87. I took a job back in the Northwest, but moved to the Southeast in the late 80s (where I am now). 


The beauty and strength of modern forecasting models is also their curse. In my childhood, you had to watch Farming Today on Sundays to get an idea of a longer term forecast so we never got any more than around 5 or 6 days' notice of real cold and snow, and that wasn't reliable either. 


It seems that now, we exprience winters the are both the real (i.e. the "seasonal" damp and chill we are experiencing down here today) and also winters in an imaginary future. However, the sophisticated graphics and computer power behind them makes the imaginary seem so real and so compelling, that when the models change (or “flip” like many like to say - although they very rarely actually "flip"), we cold fans feel a sense of depression and dejection for something that was "promised" to arrive in the real world, is cruelly snatched away.


Its no longer science predicting a warming world but it is here for us all to see around us (or choose not to see in some cases). However, the full climatic consequences of this warming world, and feedback mechanisms, including changing synoptics, are less clear. So onto today's models...


For me, December as a winter month appeared to be changing. Other than a few days of sleet, hail and snow showers, November and even December (in my recollection I hasten to add before anyone posts stats to the contrary), were generally mobile, westerly months which rarely produced several days of real cold and lying snow in the North west of England. Proper cold spells came in January or February, sometimes from the north, but usually from the east. The big stand out anomaly for me was December 1981, dominated by low pressure and persistent airmasses from an arctic. But it was a one off, or so I thought.


Then came the December of 2009 (which went on into Jan 2010) and December 2010, both experienced by me in the Southeast of England (but similar elsewhere, the latter depositing the deepest undrifted lying snow I have ever seen in lowland UK. My hunch then was that winters (and early winter in particular) were changing. A warming world, particularly the arctic, is leading to the long-term decline of the power of the late autumn jet stream.


And, actually, I think this December is no different and the signs for other recent previous Decembers have also been there, but what cold air was around, missed us. However, what I also think is irrefutably different, is the increasingly problematical access - or even close proximity to - genuinely cold air in December (by that I mean 850s of -10 or colder).


Its clearly around - just look at the Northern Hemisphere charts - but it is much less widespread and in different places than it used to be. This is almost certainly the work of summer ice melt and heat accumulating and then taking time to dissipate in northern landmasses through summer. I wish I had the programming knowledge to throw a net over the winter months and establish a geographical representation (KM2) of the extent of -10 850s (or colder) for the Decembers of today verses previous decades. I am convinced this will show a significant decline over the last 30 years. When you are bored, just take a look at the 850 archives, even allowing for their estimation in early years


I think the synoptics of the last week are a great case in point. I think someone on here called them four cylinder synoptics with a three cylinder outcome, or similar. Even allowing the little transient snow that a number of areas experienced, would these synoptics have delivered an altogether different weather outcome 30 or 40 years ago?


We will have severe cold again, and it will come again in December, but the frequency of it coming and its duration, will continue to diminish. I think the same is true for the Death of the Midwinter Easterly – we could have a similar debate. It will be back, but not as often as it used to visit.


 


Jeff


Originally Posted by: Jeff 


Can I just add, what a lovely post. Such a difference from some of the points scoring bickering that pretends to be MO discussion sometimes. Sorry for off topic.


YNWA
Jeff
  • Jeff
  • Advanced Member
09 December 2020 20:18:33


 


Can I just add, what a lovely post. Such a difference from some of the points scoring bickering that pretends to be MO discussion sometimes. Sorry for off topic.


Originally Posted by: haghir22 


Thanks!


On the East/West Sussex Border
70m ASL
nsrobins
09 December 2020 20:32:24


 


Can I just add, what a lovely post. Such a difference from some of the points scoring bickering that pretends to be MO discussion sometimes. Sorry for off topic.


Originally Posted by: haghir22 


Seconded. It’s a tonic when someone takes time to compose such an interesting piece.


 


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
fairweather
09 December 2020 20:51:20


Afternoon all on TWO.


This post is about the models output, so bear with me, as this could probably also be posted in the Nostalgia thread. It is also the musings of an interested amateur, so those with professional experience, either actual or accumulated through even greater obsession than most on this forum, please go easy on me....


I have been watching the weather since I can remember, which for those of a similar vintage, meant Jack Scott. I grew up in the North West and chose college in Yorkshire because during the 70s (particularly 1979) as it seemed that Yorkshire always got the most snow. I was rewarded by the winters of 84/85, 85/86 and 86/87. I took a job back in the Northwest, but moved to the Southeast in the late 80s (where I am now). 


The beauty and strength of modern forecasting models is also their curse. In my childhood, you had to watch Farming Today on Sundays to get an idea of a longer term forecast so we never got any more than around 5 or 6 days' notice of real cold and snow, and that wasn't reliable either. 


It seems that now, we exprience winters the are both the real (i.e. the "seasonal" damp and chill we are experiencing down here today) and also winters in an imaginary future. However, the sophisticated graphics and computer power behind them makes the imaginary seem so real and so compelling, that when the models change (or “flip” like many like to say - although they very rarely actually "flip"), we cold fans feel a sense of depression and dejection for something that was "promised" to arrive in the real world, is cruelly snatched away.


Its no longer science predicting a warming world but it is here for us all to see around us (or choose not to see in some cases). However, the full climatic consequences of this warming world, and feedback mechanisms, including changing synoptics, are less clear. So onto today's models...


For me, December as a winter month appeared to be changing. Other than a few days of sleet, hail and snow showers, November and even December (in my recollection I hasten to add before anyone posts stats to the contrary), were generally mobile, westerly months which rarely produced several days of real cold and lying snow in the North west of England. Proper cold spells came in January or February, sometimes from the north, but usually from the east. The big stand out anomaly for me was December 1981, dominated by low pressure and persistent airmasses from an arctic. But it was a one off, or so I thought.


Then came the December of 2009 (which went on into Jan 2010) and December 2010, both experienced by me in the Southeast of England (but similar elsewhere, the latter depositing the deepest undrifted lying snow I have ever seen in lowland UK. My hunch then was that winters (and early winter in particular) were changing. A warming world, particularly the arctic, is leading to the long-term decline of the power of the late autumn jet stream.


And, actually, I think this December is no different and the signs for other recent previous Decembers have also been there, but what cold air was around, missed us. However, what I also think is irrefutably different, is the increasingly problematical access - or even close proximity to - genuinely cold air in December (by that I mean 850s of -10 or colder).


Its clearly around - just look at the Northern Hemisphere charts - but it is much less widespread and in different places than it used to be. This is almost certainly the work of summer ice melt and heat accumulating and then taking time to dissipate in northern landmasses through summer. I wish I had the programming knowledge to throw a net over the winter months and establish a geographical representation (KM2) of the extent of -10 850s (or colder) for the Decembers of today verses previous decades. I am convinced this will show a significant decline over the last 30 years. When you are bored, just take a look at the 850 archives, even allowing for their estimation in early years


I think the synoptics of the last week are a great case in point. I think someone on here called them four cylinder synoptics with a three cylinder outcome, or similar. Even allowing the little transient snow that a number of areas experienced, would these synoptics have delivered an altogether different weather outcome 30 or 40 years ago?


We will have severe cold again, and it will come again in December, but the frequency of it coming and its duration, will continue to diminish. I think the same is true for the Death of the Midwinter Easterly – we could have a similar debate. It will be back, but not as often as it used to visit.


 


Jeff


Originally Posted by: Jeff 


Super post with which I entirely concur. I am also very lucky to have experienced the decade before you and of course one of just a few here to be a teenager in the 1962-3 winter. I suppose this has unfairly "tainted" my view of more recent cold winters as this was a once in possibly over a hundred years type event but I agree about your assessment of synoptics. Funnily enough the '63 winter was somewhat less severe in the north and the 2010 winter, whilst extremely cold for December, didn't produce anything that especially dramatic in way of snow in South Essex and was beaten many a time over between 1960 and 1985. Apart from what you have so well summarised I have noticed the massive drop in North Sea snow showers and "windy" snow days producing drifts feet deep that block roads in the south. But one day if the young people can live through 80 years I'm sure there will be another special winter or two......


S.Essex, 42m ASL
scillydave
09 December 2020 21:01:47


Afternoon all on TWO.


This post is about the models output, so bear with me, as this could probably also be posted in the Nostalgia thread. It is also the musings of an interested amateur, so those with professional experience, either actual or accumulated through even greater obsession than most on this forum, please go easy on me....


.........


We will have severe cold again, and it will come again in December, but the frequency of it coming and its duration, will continue to diminish. I think the same is true for the Death of the Midwinter Easterly – we could have a similar debate. It will be back, but not as often as it used to visit.


 


Jeff


Originally Posted by: Jeff 


I've snipped the above to not clog up the thread but wanted to say that this is the best post I've seen on here for a long while. Interesting,  informed and informative - thanks Jeff, I really enjoyed it. 


Currently living at roughly 65m asl North of Cowbridge in the Vale of Glamorgan.

Formerly of, Birdlip, highest village in the Cotswolds and snow heaven in winter; Hawkinge in Kent - roof of the South downs and Isles of Scilly, paradise in the UK.
western100
09 December 2020 21:41:21
Looking through the models this evening. There is large presence of blocking to the North. Not delivering anything particularly cold at the moment or in the next week or so.

However what is notable that this December the Synoptics are very different to recent Decembers and it’s certainly not mild.

Temperatures over the next week, while they are higher than recent days, they remain around average, maybe slightly above but only a nudge above. Certainly no 12-13-14 degree days this year.

A lot will depend on the nighttime temps. As with any winter month, the CET is heavily dependent on the nighttime. An 8 degree day and 0 at night is remarkably different to an 8 degree day and 5 degree night.

Both are technically chilly but would have different outcomes.

It’s looking unsettled, that will peg back temperatures where it’s wet.

Christmas build up does have more intrigue this year, which is nice as recent years it’s been pretty poor for seasonal weather, let alone cold.
Worcestershire / Warwickshire Border
100m ASL
Twitter…..@Weather4u2
Steve Murr
09 December 2020 21:50:43


 


Thanks!


Originally Posted by: Jeff 


Nice post you might find this interesting


https://journals.ametsoc.org/jcli/article/28/9/3764/106758/Contraction-of-the-Northern-Hemisphere-Lower

Brian Gaze
09 December 2020 21:59:39


I wish I had the programming knowledge to throw a net over the winter months and establish a geographical representation (KM2) of the extent of -10 850s (or colder) for the Decembers of today verses previous decades. 


Jeff


Originally Posted by: Jeff 


I can easily do that. Not sure if I'll get time this side of the new year. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Brian Gaze
09 December 2020 22:01:27


 


Nice post you might find this interesting


https://journals.ametsoc.org/jcli/article/28/9/3764/106758/Contraction-of-the-Northern-Hemisphere-Lower


 


Originally Posted by: Steve Murr 


 Seems like it has already been done properly and in greater depth than anything I would quickly put together using the reanalysis datasets.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
some faraway beach
09 December 2020 22:13:01


 


We will have severe cold again, and it will come again in December, but the frequency of it coming and its duration, will continue to diminish. I think the same is true for the Death of the Midwinter Easterly – we could have a similar debate. It will be back, but not as often as it used to visit.


 


Jeff


Originally Posted by: Jeff 


I don't understand this at all. You detailed how the decade just gone saw two Decembers of extraordinary cold compared with the usually mild Decembers of the past, yet at the same time you claim that this is all evidence of global warming.


Lest we forget, just ten years ago, while half the posters on here were spending week after week gloomily obsessing over the +384 hrs breakdown on GFS, this was going on outside their window:


The winter of 2010–11 was a weather event that brought heavy snowfalls, record low temperatures, travel chaos and school disruption to the islands of Great Britain and Ireland. It included the United Kingdom's coldest December since Met Office records began in 1910, with a mean temperature of -1 °C, breaking the previous record of 0.1 °C in December 1981. Also it was the second-coldest December in the narrower Central England Temperature (CET) record series which began in 1659, falling 0.1 °C short of the all-time record set in 1890.[2] Although data has never officially been compiled, December 2010 is thought to be colder than December 1890 over the United Kingdom as a whole, as Scotland was up to 2 °C warmer than England. Hence, it is thought to be the coldest December across the UK as a whole since before 1659.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_2010%E2%80%9311_in_Great_Britain_and_Ireland


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Saint Snow
09 December 2020 22:35:17


 


I don't understand this at all. You detailed how the decade just gone saw two Decembers of extraordinary cold compared with the usually mild Decembers of the past, yet at the same time you claim that this is all evidence of global warming.


Lest we forget, just ten years ago, while half the posters on here were spending week after week gloomily obsessing over the +384 hrs breakdown on GFS, this was going on outside their window:


The winter of 2010–11 was a weather event that brought heavy snowfalls, record low temperatures, travel chaos and school disruption to the islands of Great Britain and Ireland. It included the United Kingdom's coldest December since Met Office records began in 1910, with a mean temperature of -1 °C, breaking the previous record of 0.1 °C in December 1981. Also it was the second-coldest December in the narrower Central England Temperature (CET) record series which began in 1659, falling 0.1 °C short of the all-time record set in 1890.[2] Although data has never officially been compiled, December 2010 is thought to be colder than December 1890 over the United Kingdom as a whole, as Scotland was up to 2 °C warmer than England. Hence, it is thought to be the coldest December across the UK as a whole since before 1659.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_2010%E2%80%9311_in_Great_Britain_and_Ireland


Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 


 


I don't know if this is what Jeff was alluding to, but I remember a theory back around that 2009/10/11 period being that AGW had caused increased summer ice melt, leading to a shift in HP positioning (and even the global belts of relative high and low pressure systems) going forwards, potentially improving the likelihood of early winter HLB in that Greenland-UK-Svalbard area.


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
some faraway beach
09 December 2020 22:52:01


 


 


I don't know if this is what Jeff was alluding to, but I remember a theory back around that 2009/10/11 period being that AGW had caused increased summer ice melt, leading to a shift in HP positioning (and even the global belts of relative high and low pressure systems) going forwards, potentially improving the likelihood of early winter HLB in that Greenland-UK-Svalbard area.


 


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


I'm just lost. Remember this from a few years ago?


Scientists have agreed for the first time that recent severe cold winter weather in the UK and US may have been influenced by climate change in the Arctic, according to a new study.



The research, carried out by an international team of scientists including the University of Sheffield, has found that warming in the Arctic may be intensifying the effects of the jet stream's position, which in the winter can cause extreme cold weather, such as the winter of 2014/15 which saw record snowfall levels in New York.


...


"We've always had years with wavy and not so wavy jet stream winds, but in the last one to two decades the warming Arctic could well have been amplifying the effects of the wavy patterns," Professor Hanna said. He added: "This may have contributed to some recent extreme cold winter spells along the eastern seaboard of the United States, in eastern Asia, and at times over the UK (e.g. 2009/10 and 2010/11).


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161026081551.htm


There we are, then. Our recent record-breakingly cold winters, such as 2009/10 and 2010/11, are proof of climate change. Great. I can buy that. So, how is it that so many posters on here blame mild winters on climate change too?

Which is it? One or the other, please.



2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
ballamar
09 December 2020 22:55:01
Trust the pub run
Gandalf The White
09 December 2020 23:01:10


 


I'm just lost. Remember this from a few years ago?


Scientists have agreed for the first time that recent severe cold winter weather in the UK and US may have been influenced by climate change in the Arctic, according to a new study.



The research, carried out by an international team of scientists including the University of Sheffield, has found that warming in the Arctic may be intensifying the effects of the jet stream's position, which in the winter can cause extreme cold weather, such as the winter of 2014/15 which saw record snowfall levels in New York.


...


"We've always had years with wavy and not so wavy jet stream winds, but in the last one to two decades the warming Arctic could well have been amplifying the effects of the wavy patterns," Professor Hanna said. He added: "This may have contributed to some recent extreme cold winter spells along the eastern seaboard of the United States, in eastern Asia, and at times over the UK (e.g. 2009/10 and 2010/11).


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161026081551.htm


There we are, then. Our recent record-breakingly cold winters, such as 2009/10 and 2010/11, are proof of climate change. Great. I can buy that. So, how is it that so many posters on here blame mild winters on climate change too?

Which is it? One or the other, please.



Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 


If you really think it's 'one or the other' then I don't think you understand the complexities.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
09 December 2020 23:03:19

Trust the pub run

Originally Posted by: ballamar 


Yes, quite interesting but, importantly another variation on a theme of high latitude height rises.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


some faraway beach
09 December 2020 23:08:19


 


If you really think it's 'one or the other' then I don't think you understand the complexities.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Can you just describe for me a type of winter which would not be evidence of climate change then. A cold one evidently is, because "scientists agree." A mild one is - everyone agrees. 


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
tallyho_83
09 December 2020 23:11:46

Good cross model agreement for blocking right over the Arctic on most if not all models BY +240z: - Indicative of a -AO and NAO and weakened zonal flow. Just a shame this doesn't look like bringing in much in the way of cold air...!?


 


18z Operational:



 


ECM:



 


GEM:



Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Downpour
09 December 2020 23:17:41


 


Can you just describe for me a type of winter which would not be evidence of climate change then. A cold one evidently is, because "scientists agree." A mild one is - everyone agrees. 


Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 


 


A bang average one? 


Chingford
London E4
147ft
Steve Murr
09 December 2020 23:32:31

Its worth noting the GFS 10 Day mean on the 18z


 The model is starting to get to grips with the pressure rises over the pole.


Im not sure whats more notable > the GH pressure increases or the anomalous cold appearing over the area of PV dropping south...

Gandalf The White
09 December 2020 23:35:20


 


Can you just describe for me a type of winter which would not be evidence of climate change then. A cold one evidently is, because "scientists agree." A mild one is - everyone agrees. 


Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 


I don't think this thread is the right place for this discussion but the only thing we can say is that there's an unarguable warming trend, most pronounced in northern latitudes and clearly present in the CET. The next clear message is that adding energy and shifting the energy balance in our complex atmospheric system should be expected to have, and is having, consequences.  Third, a warming Arctic means a reduced volume of cold air, and that air is less cold (as evidenced in that research linked to by Steve Murr): then warming oceans means more modification of those cold air masses as they advect south. Finally, there's evidence of the high pressure belt to our south encroaching slightly further north (also a prediction of the climate models).


None of this means cold spells won't happen; it means they become less severe and less common. I think, again, that the records support this.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
09 December 2020 23:40:08


 


Thanks!


Originally Posted by: Jeff 


I will add my thanks as well. It was an interesting read and echoed some of my thoughts.


Over the years here a number of people have reminisced about the times when the weather sprung surprises, simply because the forecasters had so much less data and we had none at all to scrutinise.  I remember going to bed when the forecast was for overnight rain and waking to heavy snow; and the opposite. 


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


White Meadows
09 December 2020 23:45:51
https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPNH18_240_2.png 

Arctic high pressure signals yes, but technically not blocking as the Atlantic train continues to bring muck to the UK.
picturesareme
09 December 2020 23:54:53


 


If you really think it's 'one or the other' then I don't think you understand the complexities.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Forgive but this is kind of answer I would expect some religious nut or politician to give. 

Saint Snow
10 December 2020 00:04:52


 


Forgive but this is kind of answer I would expect some religious nut or politician to give. 


Originally Posted by: picturesareme 


 


Read GtW's other [excellent] post #901, where he goes into more detail.


Then take on board his suggestion in the opening sentence. 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan

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