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Hippydave
Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:00:44 PM

The frustrating thing on the models at present is looking at the PV reforming and/or never quite splitting as it's projected to.


Seem to recall last week most runs showed the PV ending up very disrupted and yet nearer to the time the PV is back and consequently it's mid latitude highs and just hints of a scandi ridge.


It's still a change from mild zonal stuff and if clear under HP it will be cold and sunny but until the PV wanders away from Greenie it's mid lat highs and gradual sinkers imo. I guess if you like colder weather it's encouraging that HP seems willing to build over us or just to the North despite the not too favourable conditions, which could be a useful signal if the pattern over the pole turns more condusive to high lat blocking.


Not really a major change on the ground from what the PV disrupted runs were showing (which were chilly but not out and out cold irrc) but less promising for further cold down the line.


(Of course the ECM tonight it interesting but again the tastier charts and disrupted PV is well in to FI and not getting any closer).


Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Whether Idle
Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:01:00 PM

What would happen with the polar vortex over Canada like that?

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 


Dunno, on that chart the PV has been fairly ripped apart anyhow.


 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=240&mode=1&map=1&type=0&archive=0


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
SEMerc
Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:04:55 PM




http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013111712/ECH0-192.GIF?17-0


The cold air floods back South


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


You certainly expect some snow in the Shetlands with that chart.


Originally Posted by: SEMerc 


Tidied.


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Freudian slip.

Whether Idle
Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:23:38 PM





http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013111712/ECH0-192.GIF?17-0


The cold air floods back South


Originally Posted by: SEMerc 


You certainly expect some snow in the Shetlands with that chart.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


Tidied.


Originally Posted by: SEMerc 


Freudian slip.


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Phonetic spelling I thought.


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
some faraway beach
Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:30:24 PM


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013111712/ECH1-168.GIF?17-0


 


VERTICAL - ALMOST the same as nov 2010


Originally Posted by: Steve Murr 


Compare with 22 November 2010:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/archives/archives.php?day=22&month=11&year=2010&hour=0&map=5&mode=0


I assume Murr is referring to the similar angle of the low pressure drawing milder air up the west coast of Greenland.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Jive Buddy
Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:34:55 PM






http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013111712/ECH0-192.GIF?17-0


The cold air floods back South


Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 


You certainly expect some snow in the Shetlands with that chart.


Originally Posted by: SEMerc 


Tidied.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


Freudian slip.


Originally Posted by: SEMerc 


Phonetic spelling I thought.


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


For a Kiwi?


It's not over, until the fat Scandy sinks.....

Location: St. Mary Cray, S.E. London border with Kent.
Ally Pally Snowman
Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:36:08 PM



http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013111712/ECH1-168.GIF?17-0


 


VERTICAL - ALMOST the same as nov 2010


Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 


Compare with 22 November 2010:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/archives/archives.php?day=22&month=11&year=2010&hour=0&map=5&mode=0


I assume Murr is referring to the similar angle of the low pressure drawing milder air up the west coast of Greenland.


Originally Posted by: Steve Murr 


The potential has been there for sometime we just need to get lucky now, another great run from ECM. And great analysis from Steve Murr once again.


 


 


 


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Steve Murr
Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:37:12 PM



http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013111712/ECH1-168.GIF?17-0


 


VERTICAL - ALMOST the same as nov 2010


Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 


Compare with 22 November 2010:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/archives/archives.php?day=22&month=11&year=2010&hour=0&map=5&mode=0


I assume Murr is referring to the similar angle of the low pressure drawing milder air up the west coast of Greenland.


Originally Posted by: Steve Murr 


 


1 day out


 


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/reana/2010/archivesnh-2010-11-21-0-0.png 

The Beast from the East
Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:52:07 PM

I can't get too excited by this yet, based on that 144h chart, which clearly isn't realistic (imo). I think the GFS scenario of a collapsing UK high is just as probable as the ECM. Still the NAVGEM agrees with the ECM so....

Originally Posted by: Quantum 



I agree. GFS shows the worst case scenario which looks equally plausible. The potential to ridge north is there but there seem to be too many barriers
"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Polar Low
Sunday, November 17, 2013 8:10:07 PM

Yes Steve ecm swing from negative alignment which was not bad in its self.


very nice at the pole ecm with a nice little nose from here.


also gfs hits at that also earlier on with adjustment earlier on  with more energy into Europe


Nice Trend 





http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013111712/ECH1-168.GIF?17-0


 


VERTICAL - ALMOST the same as nov 2010


Originally Posted by: Steve Murr 


Compare with 22 November 2010:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/archives/archives.php?day=22&month=11&year=2010&hour=0&map=5&mode=0


I assume Murr is referring to the similar angle of the low pressure drawing milder air up the west coast of Greenland.


Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 


 


1 day out


 


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/reana/2010/archivesnh-2010-11-21-0-0.png 


Originally Posted by: Steve Murr 

haghir22
Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:03:00 PM
Ladies and gents....

Can someone summarise for me, been working all day and so much has changed.
YNWA
Matty H
  • Matty H
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:08:15 PM

Ladies and gents....

Can someone summarise for me, been working all day and so much has changed.

Originally Posted by: haghir22 



Not an awful lot has changed today. Still going to turn colder in the coming week. Temps down in single digits for most by Tuesday.

Snow chances? At a premium for most on lower ground, unlikely in southern areas in any form. There is a band of precip moving down Wednesday which may have a wintry flavour for favoured areas further north and particularly over high ground. Higher ground of Scotland bound to do ok this week.

After that it appears a still chilly more settled theme of high pressure may attempt to rule, but it's all speculation beyond the end of this coming week. Some outputs showing absolute polar opposites in their operational outputs, with others going for a return to the Atlantic.
GIBBY
Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:09:12 PM

Good evening. Here is the report on the 12 noon outputs from GFS, UKMO, GEM, NAVGEM and ECM for today Sunday November 17th 2013.


All models show a change to colder conditions soon. The change comes in two tiers, the first being a rather unsettled tier with a band of rain crossing SE tonight and tomorrow and introducing a rather cold and showery NW flow for 24 hours or so with wintry showers over the hills and most frequent in the North and West. Then a depression crossing SE down the North Sea on Wednesday brings a spell of wind and rain for all with sleet or snow on the highest ground before a change to colder and more showery weather returns on Thursday, leading us into the second tier. This phase then shows strong rises in pressure with an Anticyclone shown to be firmly over the UK next weekend with attendant still, cold and frosty conditions with the potential for dense and freezing fog patches reluctant to clear by day.


GFS then shows it's entire remainder of the run with the UK bathed in High pressure either over or nearby to the NW. As a result little change from this cold and settled theme with frost and fog coming and going day to day seems likely with very little rainfall for anyone.


UKMO closes it's run with High pressure firmly across the UK with fine and settled conditions with the twin winter perils of frost and fog in abundance for most of the UK.


GEM tonight shows a more temporary phase of High pressure next weekend before it drifts away to the NE before collapsing altogether late in it's run at the expense of deep Atlantic Low pressure with wind and rain moving slowly in from the SW and West. Temperatures would be held somewhat below average until the milder air associated with the wind and rain arrives later.


NAVGEM keeps High pressure close to the NW with a cold NNE drift across the UK for most of the time. This would be insufficiently strong to prevent frost and fog problems developing night and morning in an otherwise dry and sunny spell of weather.


ECM shows High pressure over the weekend and being reinforced from the NW later with cold conditions sustained across all areas with copious amounts of frost and freezing fog too if the light NE feed stays slack enough. By Day 10 High pressure lies close to NW Britain with a chilly and dry theme for most with a cold wind from the NNE with some sunshine by day but still with the risk of frost and freezing fog overnight. 


The GFS Ensembles show a cold period to come, particularly across the South before conditions are shown to average the long term mean from the mid point of the run. More unsettled weather is also shown to develop from many members in the second half of the run with rain at times as the Atlantic gathers momentum later. The operational was a cold outlier especially across the South.


The Jet Stream flow is unavailable tonight. 


In Summary the weather looks like becoming and staying rather cold for a week or so at least. There are strong signs from GFS and possibly GEM later that an Atlantic breakdown will end the colder theme while ECM is more dogmatic with a new surge of cold sinking over Europe and then SW over Britain following several days of cold and frosty conditions. Which is right will need more runs to solve but there is plenty of scope shown from reliable model sources that cold weather will never be far away over the coming few weeks.


Transcript taken from:-http://www.norton-ra...is(2859336).htm


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
haghir22
Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:15:54 PM

Ladies and gents....

Can someone summarise for me, been working all day and so much has changed.

Originally Posted by: Matty H 



Not an awful lot has changed today. Still going to turn colder in the coming week. Temps down in single digits for most by Tuesday.

Snow chances? At a premium for most on lower ground, unlikely in southern areas in any form. There is a band of precip moving down Wednesday which may have a wintry flavour for favoured areas further north and particularly over high ground. Higher ground of Scotland bound to do ok this week.

After that it appears a still chilly more settled theme of high pressure may attempt to rule, but it's all speculation beyond the end of this coming week. Some outputs showing absolute polar opposites in their operational outputs, with others going for a return to the Atlantic.

Originally Posted by: haghir22 



Thks MH
YNWA
Phil G
Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:47:00 PM
The countryfile forecast showed 7c here for this week. GFS going in with 4c starting Tuesday.
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn4217.png 
Phil G
Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:58:18 PM
Lot lower than what the been are forecasting on GFS, only +2c
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn9017.png 
Matty H
  • Matty H
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
Sunday, November 17, 2013 10:02:48 PM

Lot lower than what the been are forecasting on GFS, only +2c
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn9017.png 

Originally Posted by: Phil G 



Historically the GFS temp charts are pretty awful. However, it's worth noting that the temps shown on Countryfile will be for towns and cities, not rural spots, which will always be lower.
Phil G
Sunday, November 17, 2013 10:17:56 PM

Lot lower than what the been are forecasting on GFS, only +2c
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn9017.png 

Originally Posted by: Matty H 



Historically the GFS temp charts are pretty awful. However, it's worth noting that the temps shown on Countryfile will be for towns and cities, not rural spots, which will always be lower.

Originally Posted by: Phil G 


That's true Matty. Temps for 6pm are higher, so these were not the max temps I posted.
nsrobins
Sunday, November 17, 2013 10:30:51 PM

GFS 18Z has corrected the high north and is trending towards ECM.
I would expect a a result somehwere between the two TBH = high pressure mostly dominates from Thursday with a slack cool/cold flow across the south.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
squish
Sunday, November 17, 2013 10:55:57 PM
Karl Guille
Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:05:28 PM

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/navgem/runs/2013111718/navgemnh-0-144.png?17-23

Originally Posted by: squish 



Certainly as plausible as any of the other options! 🙂


St. Sampson
Guernsey
White Meadows
Monday, November 18, 2013 7:18:55 AM
Oh wow ECM really sets the pulse racing this morning with proper sustained blocking to our north. Of course GFS is a mess in these situations but a strong rise in pressure over Greenland signal is present later in the run. Many more options appearing in the ensembles too.
Stormchaser
Monday, November 18, 2013 7:30:33 AM

http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/ecmimages/20131118/00/npsh500.240.png


Remarkable to see the PV so broken and depleted on the ECM 00z op run!


It and GFS diverge by just 96 hours, with GFS insisting on having the Atlantic energy pile into Greenland while ECM instead focuses the energy on a new trough over Canada.


That's crucial to allowing the high pressure to stand tall on the ECM run.


http://www.meteociel.fr/ukmo/archives/2013111800/UW144-21.GIF


UKMO is almost right with ECM this morning, but the trough into Scandi doesn't dig south as much. At the same time, low pressure in the Atlantic is supressed further south, so a cut-off wedge of higher heights near Iceland is not out of the question shortly beyond day 6.


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