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Gandalf The White
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:03:49 PM


ECM heads towards cold zonality this morning as the PV focuses more to our NE, while GFS prefers to keep more energy to our NW with milder air at times until later on in the run when it starts to follow the ECM idea.


In both versions of events, the PV is elongated in such a way that it doesn't fire much energy right at the UK, with high pressure tending to dominate.


I can take 4 to 5 weeks of this before I start to get concerned... may the long period of finger-tapping begin 


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


4 or 5 months perhaps?   At least that takes us to next spring....


Seriously, looking at the 00z ECM run I don't see cold zonality?   The T+240 mean chart has low pressure sitting between Iceland and Greenland, with most of England sitting in >0 850hPa air.


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013112000/EDH1-240.GIF?20-12 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013112000/EDH0-240.GIF?20-12 


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


picturesareme
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:43:20 PM

I think we are "overdue" a cold Christmas. The last 2 were hideously mild down here


 

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



Northerners on the other hand have had at least 2 in past 5 years. Relatives in the Newcastle area had 2 consecutive White Xmas 09/10 or 10/11 I think.

I don't even remember last time I had a frosty xmas
Rob K
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:59:17 PM


I think we are "overdue" a cold Christmas. The last 2 were hideously mild down here


 


Originally Posted by: picturesareme 



Northerners on the other hand have had at least 2 in past 5 years. Relatives in the Newcastle area had 2 consecutive White Xmas 09/10 or 10/11 I think.

I don't even remember last time I had a frosty xmas

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


You must have a pretty short memory . Christmas 2010 was one of the coldest on record. The maximum temperature at Solent MRSC (not too far from you) on Christmas Day 2010 was —0.9C. In this part of Hampshire, 2010 certainly had snow on the ground on Christmas Day and I think 2009 may have done as well. If not on the day itself then certainly a couple of days before (looking at the Tutiempo climate records, 21/12 and 23/12/2009 had snow falling at Farnborough).


 


As for the last two Xmas Days being "horribly mild", well 2011 did fall into the mild category (min 6.2C, max 11.6C) but 2012 was only slightly abovre average (min 5.6C, max 9.1C).


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
picturesareme
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:17:45 PM


I think we are "overdue" a cold Christmas. The last 2 were hideously mild down here


 


Originally Posted by: Rob K 



Northerners on the other hand have had at least 2 in past 5 years. Relatives in the Newcastle area had 2 consecutive White Xmas 09/10 or 10/11 I think.

I don't even remember last time I had a frosty xmas

Originally Posted by: picturesareme 


You must have a pretty short memory . Christmas 2010 was one of the coldest on record. The maximum temperature at Solent MRSC (not too far from you) on Christmas Day 2010 was —0.9C. In this part of Hampshire, 2010 certainly had snow on the ground on Christmas Day and I think 2009 may have done as well. If not on the day itself then certainly a couple of days before (looking at the Tutiempo climate records, 21/12 and 23/12/2009 had snow falling at Farnborough).


 


As for the last two Xmas Days being "horribly mild", well 2011 did fall into the mild category (min 6.2C, max 11.6C) but 2012 was only slightly abovre average (min 5.6C, max 9.1C).

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



The only snow cover I remember that winter was over night November 30 into first of December - that 1st of December was coldest day I can remember in Portsmouth with the maximum day temperature remaining below -2.5.

I just looked at the records using tutiempo and for Solent and thorny they have gotten the wrong records.

doctormog
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:42:54 PM
Chiltern Blizzard
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:46:37 PM



I think we are "overdue" a cold Christmas. The last 2 were hideously mild down here


 


Originally Posted by: picturesareme 



Northerners on the other hand have had at least 2 in past 5 years. Relatives in the Newcastle area had 2 consecutive White Xmas 09/10 or 10/11 I think.

I don't even remember last time I had a frosty xmas

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


You must have a pretty short memory . Christmas 2010 was one of the coldest on record. The maximum temperature at Solent MRSC (not too far from you) on Christmas Day 2010 was —0.9C. In this part of Hampshire, 2010 certainly had snow on the ground on Christmas Day and I think 2009 may have done as well. If not on the day itself then certainly a couple of days before (looking at the Tutiempo climate records, 21/12 and 23/12/2009 had snow falling at Farnborough).


 


As for the last two Xmas Days being "horribly mild", well 2011 did fall into the mild category (min 6.2C, max 11.6C) but 2012 was only slightly abovre average (min 5.6C, max 9.1C).


Originally Posted by: picturesareme 



The only snow cover I remember that winter was over night November 30 into first of December - that 1st of December was coldest day I can remember in Portsmouth with the maximum day temperature remaining below -2.5.

I just looked at the records using tutiempo and for Solent and thorny they have gotten the wrong records.

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Just one of snow day in November/December 2010!!  The curse of being in Portsmouth and loving snow!


Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
The Beast from the East
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:48:27 PM

another attempt at a northerly in deep FI.


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Polar Low
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:50:14 PM

intresting at the pole we may have not been defeated for long


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=192&mode=0&carte=1

nsrobins
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:03:48 PM


intresting at the pole we may have not been defecated for long


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


I'm sure it's not that bad


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Polar Low
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:03:52 PM

any s/e feed into the s/e England will feel very cold upgrade on 0z temps for europe.


Frost sets in Europe


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/temperatures-2m/162h.htm

Gandalf The White
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:06:29 PM



intresting at the pole we may have not been defecated for long


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


I'm sure it's not that bad


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


Wasn't that just a wee bit unnecessary?



Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


David M Porter
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:09:16 PM



ECM heads towards cold zonality this morning as the PV focuses more to our NE, while GFS prefers to keep more energy to our NW with milder air at times until later on in the run when it starts to follow the ECM idea.


In both versions of events, the PV is elongated in such a way that it doesn't fire much energy right at the UK, with high pressure tending to dominate.


I can take 4 to 5 weeks of this before I start to get concerned... may the long period of finger-tapping begin 


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


4 or 5 months perhaps?   At least that takes us to next spring....


Seriously, looking at the 00z ECM run I don't see cold zonality?   The T+240 mean chart has low pressure sitting between Iceland and Greenland, with most of England sitting in >0 850hPa air.


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013112000/EDH1-240.GIF?20-12 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013112000/EDH0-240.GIF?20-12 


 


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


The thing that got my interest most about this morning's ECM is that it shows the main chuck of the Polar Vortex sitting to the north of Scandinavia instead of over Greenland/NE Canada as often seen in the past. Don't know that would be any help to us in terms of cold prospects, but one never knows.


 


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
LA2B MeridFlowEuro09
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:14:04 PM
Well not much at all is on Weather Model GFS- The Eastern N Atlantic and NW Europe UK Outputs 12z, show dry cold settled and frosty early and late every day Weather type, from Friday right through Weekend and much of the following Week, the a change in Weekend 2 after new week, NW flow as we get Low Pressure meander in- bring some heavy or mod. Rain and breezy weather for That Weekend or Sunday Moday time (not this Weekend).

Tropical Storm MELISSA Tracks North to Greenland then SE Arctic during the new Week and - this Weekend plus next 48 hours- the next few days it spreads round over Western N Atlantic.

And during next week, after this Weekend, Deep Low Pressure move ESE from Central NE USA SE Canada pushing into the TS Melissa Low over NW N Mid Atlantic- it merges and cross Greenland next Sunday and the Monday to Wednsday onwards- while Bigh High in Eastern N Central Atlantic and Western NW Europe persists giving lots chances of cold frost nights, and dry clear and sunny but with some fog night and day in NW Europe and the UK.

Deep Low and Cold Vortex next few days over Iceland Svalbard SE Arctic and this moves ESE through to Norway NE N Europe Thursday to Sunday with NNW flow as the Low heads across!.

This pattern bodes well for Cold and changeable Weather in early and Mid December 2013.

We live in hope, best of luck with all efforts to keep it interesting in the UK.
Climate is warming up, Scotland and N Ireland and North England still often gets some Winter frost, ice and snow, November to March, but the SE and South UK including S Central England and Wales, together with the West and North through the year, they sometimes get more rain than London and S SE England, where some longer dry fine spells without much heavy rain is seen every year.

The North Atlantic Sea often gets some much Colder Wintry conditions from November to March Months, and Mild SW and South winds tend to be more frequent over the East and SE of North Atlantic Sea, as the Azores High tends to stay in charge. 

With this warmth and heat, the Central and South UK has become mostly free of snow and frost.
Jive Buddy
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:18:48 PM




intresting at the pole we may have not been defecated for long


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


I'm sure it's not that bad


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Wasn't that just a wee bit unnecessary?



Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


Typical Model Output...always someone ready to poo poo an idea


It's not over, until the fat Scandy sinks.....

Location: St. Mary Cray, S.E. London border with Kent.
Polar Low
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:31:02 PM

Apologies GTW just felt like Davrous for a bit






intresting at the pole we may have not been defecated for long


Originally Posted by: Jive Buddy 


I'm sure it's not that bad


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Wasn't that just a wee bit unnecessary?



Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Typical Model Output...always someone ready to poo poo an idea


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 

LA2B MeridFlowEuro09
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:35:18 PM

Just need to add more RE: it is interesting to see more Unsettled Very Wet and chilly cold weather in the Southern Central W Europe which also quickly affects SE France The Meditteranean and much of Italy etc, more flash flooding for them, likely.

Climate is warming up, Scotland and N Ireland and North England still often gets some Winter frost, ice and snow, November to March, but the SE and South UK including S Central England and Wales, together with the West and North through the year, they sometimes get more rain than London and S SE England, where some longer dry fine spells without much heavy rain is seen every year.

The North Atlantic Sea often gets some much Colder Wintry conditions from November to March Months, and Mild SW and South winds tend to be more frequent over the East and SE of North Atlantic Sea, as the Azores High tends to stay in charge. 

With this warmth and heat, the Central and South UK has become mostly free of snow and frost.
picturesareme
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:40:01 PM



I think we are "overdue" a cold Christmas. The last 2 were hideously mild down here


 


Originally Posted by: Chiltern Blizzard 



Northerners on the other hand have had at least 2 in past 5 years. Relatives in the Newcastle area had 2 consecutive White Xmas 09/10 or 10/11 I think.

I don't even remember last time I had a frosty xmas

Originally Posted by: picturesareme 


You must have a pretty short memory . Christmas 2010 was one of the coldest on record. The maximum temperature at Solent MRSC (not too far from you) on Christmas Day 2010 was —0.9C. In this part of Hampshire, 2010 certainly had snow on the ground on Christmas Day and I think 2009 may have done as well. If not on the day itself then certainly a couple of days before (looking at the Tutiempo climate records, 21/12 and 23/12/2009 had snow falling at Farnborough).


 


As for the last two Xmas Days being "horribly mild", well 2011 did fall into the mild category (min 6.2C, max 11.6C) but 2012 was only slightly abovre average (min 5.6C, max 9.1C).


Originally Posted by: Rob K 



The only snow cover I remember that winter was over night November 30 into first of December - that 1st of December was coldest day I can remember in Portsmouth with the maximum day temperature remaining below -2.5.

I just looked at the records using tutiempo and for Solent and thorny they have gotten the wrong records.

Originally Posted by: picturesareme 


Just one of snow day in November/December 2010!!  The curse of being in Portsmouth and loving snow!

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



Well there might have been the odd flurry that I've forgotten of but certainly only one proper snowfall and covering... Yes Portsmouth is a cursed city for snow!!!

P.s. Thanks doc for the link 🙂
nickl
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 6:16:14 PM

anyone fancy doing it all over again ? the GEFS say its time for act 1 scene 2.

Quantum
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:22:36 PM

The ECM is at least trying. But the cold incursion attempt at 216, was very poorly organised, so its not a suprise it failed at 240. What I want, is that High over the beufort to move south into the central arctic, and the high over canada to absorb the midatlantic one and push towards greenland. If they meet in the middle than thats job done. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
GIBBY
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:28:46 PM

Good evening. Here is the report on the 12 noon outputs of the regular five model outputs for today Wednesday November 20th 2013.


All models look very similar in synoptic set-up for the next week or so as High pressure settles across the UK and nudges away Low pressure from the SE over the next few days removing the shower risk as it goes. Instead variations in the weather over the next week will be on a much more local scale with varying amounts of frost and fog jostling with otherwise sunny and bright days. Overall temperatures will be on the low side of average with daytime values entirely dependant on whether freezing fog patches form and become resistant to clearance through the day or not.


GFS then shows High pressure persisting across the UK for the majority of the run tonight with only small day to day movements of the position of the centre. Late in the run a temporary breakdown takes place with a period of rain at times in rather chilly conditions with the threat of something rather colder weather persisting with frost and fog at night.


UKMO shows High pressure over Southern Ireland with a moderate Westerly flow over Northern areas. Fog and frost would gradually become more restricted to Southern areas as cloud moves in from off the Atlantic across the North then slips slowly South. Temperatures would be close to average across the North but rather chillier in the South.


GEM tonight, like this morning shows High pressure over the South gradually slipping further South later in the run opening the door to the Atlantic wind and rain moving across the North and then areas further South as a cold front passes. Temperatures will recover to nearer the average at the onset of the more unsettled conditions.


NAVGEM shows High pressure just about holding control over the UK for the next week with the end of the run suggesting more cloud cover and perhaps a little rain as weak fronts cross SE down over the UK. Frost and fog would become rather less of a problem should this evolve and daytime temperatures as a result could approach the average.


ECM tonight shows High pressure either over or to the West of the UK with fine and settled weather but with overnight frost and fog patches to clear away at first each day which could prove problematical at times. The run ends with High pressure still out to the West of the UK and with a colder plunge over Europe the UK could be on the periphery of this maintaining temperatures below average but removing the fog risk with the extra wind flow.


The GFS Ensembles tonight show a sustained period of High pressure over or near the UK with light winds throughout and little in the way of rain shown by most members throughout. Temperatures remain close to average at the 850 level and somewhat below in stagnant surface air.


The Jet Stream remains at high latitudes for the foreseeable future forced North by the presence of High pressure over or near to the UK.


In Summary it's another set of High pressure based model output tonight. It is hard to see anything other than a sustained and prolonged period of quiet weather with light winds, frost and fog at night and some sunshine by day over the coming week to 10 days. As one would expect some cracks in the pattern do begin to turn up late in the run from various outputs but there looks unlikely to be any significant or noteworthy events to mark anything other than a partial breakdown.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Rob K
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:29:32 PM


anyone fancy doing it all over again ? the GEFS say its time for act 1 scene 2.


Originally Posted by: nickl 


They do? After the weekend this set looks about as average as average can be. The white mean line couldn't follow the red long-term average line any closer if it tried!


 


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/MT8_London_ens.png


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Stormchaser
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:41:30 PM

Well I know the ECM 00z wasn't mild zonality... guess regular zonality will have to suffice 


GFS is below average all the way today, but that's largely down to much of the UK being under high pressure, with inversions turning up quite a lot to give 3-8°C maximums and minimums near or below freezing - but that assumes a decent amount of clear skies, and we know GFS can tend to underestimate cloud development in the mid-range.


With the PV in a fitful state, we'll probably see stuff like the 12z GFS op run in far FI cropping up quite often over the next fortnight, with that tending to come and go in FI without much progress towards verification.


...but at least of them might verify. I'm talking a very amplified ridge spending at least a few days in the Greenland area combining with one of the troughs digging down into Europe. I'd be surprised to see full-blown blocking that soon though - that's what I'll be keeping an eye out for late next month.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Stormchaser
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:47:47 PM

...in fact, we might see many versions of what's going on today, and with any luck the future versions will manage to resist the westerlies for increasingly long periods of time, with colder and colder results.


This is all part of the sequence of amplified ridges that keep nosing poleward on the GFS and ECM 12z runs. They're acting as 'speed humps' to the westerlies, causing the PV a real headache.


This is why I keep banging on about the potential later next month - I should probably give that a rest now, as it's based on everthing going to plan i.e. no sudden end to the amplified ridges and revival of the PV! 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Polar Low
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:48:44 PM

Quite a few are split pv or heights rising fast at Grenny later on Rob many more than yesterday  if you look throu ens but it does not develope as a coldie would hope thus it does not show up as a colder upper on the graph.. gfs maybe on to someting who knows?


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=9&ech=174&mode=0&carte=1




anyone fancy doing it all over again ? the GEFS say its time for act 1 scene 2.


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


They do? After the weekend this set looks about as average as average can be. The white mean line couldn't follow the red long-term average line any closer if it tried!


 


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/MT8_London_ens.png


Originally Posted by: nickl 

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