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NickR
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 11:24:22 AM


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn21617.png


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn24017.png


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn27617.png


Ice days if verified, probably on the cold side of the runs I should imagine


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Certainly interesting to see where it lies in the ENS.


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
Steve Murr
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 11:31:30 AM


Really sorry Steve, it was not a dig at you. Apologies if you thought it was. It was referring to what you often say that the 6z is one of the less accurate runs, but certainly wasn't intended as a dig in any way. I think your posts are great, very clear and concise, and I always look forward to reading them.


It definitely has been a trend though hasn't it that there appears to be a cold snap creeping up on us?


Originally Posted by: moomin75 


 


No I quoted the wrong post.-


For reference as Martin hasnt replied above but has on NW-


 


Using the ECM Mean at day 10 is often pointless if the operational has a clear trend.


for example - of 50 members if 35 are like the operational & 15 have a toppler then the overall signal for an amplified pattern will be somewhat muted- hence the 'appearance' of a flatter pattern at day 10.-


As you get to day 6/ day 7 then that mean will take on the shape of the operational more closely -


Some days you get better Means somedays you get better operationals - today I would suggest the mean is behind the opertational trending..


S

NickR
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 11:35:52 AM
Just to say that Martin did respond in here: see bottom p. 15 of this thread. I think this makes it clear what S is responding to above. If it's a different post he's referring to then mea culpa.
Nick
Durham
[email protected]
GIBBY
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:09:37 PM

Just to clear this one up. My reviews each day are as I see it using all the data I have available to me. I appreciate that many delve deeper into other parts of the World for synopsis and trends and that's fine. I personally don't go down that route preferring to keep my info to the synopses as it is over and immediately around the area of the UK as that's what's most likely to affect us in the here and now and near future. I can clearly see the potential that Steve Murr and others highlight this morning but it's just my opinion only that with that slug of a High pressure down to the SW then any cold shot in the next 10-14 days will be transient at best with longer term profiles to me not showing any easy route to cold weather and snow on a widespread and disruptive scale with milder air just around the corner. I did doubt my own deduction of the charts this morning after reading the enthusiastic posts on here and elsewhere but having seen the ECM Day 10 mean from it's ECM members and read Ian Fergusons Twitter feed this morning I am now even more convinced that I am not that wide of the mark. Sorry Mods but felt this was going on long enough and not offering anything to the Model Output discussion. Now I have fully answered the questions raised perhaps it's best that we all move on.  


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
AJ*
  • AJ*
  • Advanced Member
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:19:50 PM


Agreed.


In a weather-watching-world where it seems common for some people just to focus on certain conditions they like and then disappear for the rest of the time, the fact you plug away every day at producing useful, balanced model output discussion, with actual weather forecasts people can use is to your credit. Not that there's anything wrong with just "dipping in" for certain types of weather, of course, but consistent and objective forecasting and discussion is the bedrock of the thread. 


We're fortunate to have other several members too who post decent analysis whatever the conditions. You know who you are, and it is much appreciated.


Originally Posted by: NickR 


I'd like to add my appreciation of Martin's steady, on-going, level-headed, unbiased model analysis.  I guess we don't want this thread clogged up with loads of 'thank you' posts every time, which is why I don't do this very often, but once in a while it deserves to be said.


And there's also the fun of looking for snow potential in the distant future and watching to see if it will ever happen...


Angus


Angus; one of the Kent crew on TWO.
Tonbridge, 40m (131ft) asl
ARTzeman
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:45:28 PM

Thank you Martin for your output.They  are always worth reading.


I also like your Somerset Weather Forecast. Also your Somerset Mid Term Outlook.  Both on your site.






Some people walk in the rain.
Others just get wet.
I Just Blow my horn or trumpet
Gooner
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:59:51 PM

http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/charts/gefs/gefsens850London0.png


On the cold side with not much support


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Quantum
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:20:13 PM

I think, the models are overdoing the collapse of the block. For that to happen significant energy needs to come from canada, and I just don't see that happening. I would think it would be more natural for some energy to be sent under the block which is generally what we would expect to see in upgrades anyway. Even this, not withstanding, I would still expect to see a moderately long cold spell, with all this northern blocking. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
nickl
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:33:54 PM

i still see a mlb to follow the northerly. thart could well mean that despite uppers recovering, surface coditions remain cool/cold.


now where will an MLB go ?  that depends how strong the canadian vortex becomes.

nickl
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:36:30 PM


Some encouraging trends emerging


ECM ens showing a cooling trend but nothing spectacular, though we would do better out of any northerly than holland


http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/vijftiendaagse/index.php


The control looks mad!


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


the control takes a shortwave across the centre of the uk, nw/se and just s of de bilt. significant snow event for n england/s scotland.

Gooner
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:47:30 PM

http://expert-images.weatheronline.co.uk/daten/proficharts/en/2013/11/27/basis06/ukuk/rart/13120500_2_2706.gif


JFF


Firts signs of something really wintry


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:54:07 PM

I'm thinking a short lived cold blast that likely won't be as potent as some of the op runs are showing but still strong enough to bring some snowfall, perhaps even to some southern areas.

Heights look to low over our side of the Arctic for pressure to build strongly to our north bringing a prolonged deeply cold spell. Unless some of the more knowledgable on here can tell me I've got that wrong

Karl Guille
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 2:18:58 PM


Thanks guys, will try that later!


St. Sampson
Guernsey
Quantum
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 3:47:10 PM

UKMO also looking very good, and the NAVGEM. 


BTW Ive really tried to post in charts, but I just can't seem to make them clickable. I don't think the URLs are invalid. If the unclickable nature is the only issue, then I will try and adress it; but it isn't despearately important. I'd be very concerned though if my links actually were ending up on 404 pages. 


Anyway, the events seem to have remakably panned out in much the way the models were suggesting over the last week. The deep high over the bearing, has produced strong WAA into the pacific arctic, promoting high pressure over northern canada (rather than greenland as originally thought). So now the HP over canada is merging with the high from the atlantic, as is to be expected with northern blocking about. The low heights over greenland are becoming less of an issue aswell with WAA now on our side. So the route was pretty indirect, but the results are pretty much the same. If the bearing high had directly merged with the greenland high instead of taking a more indirect route, then I would have expected the cold spell to have been seen on the models a good 3 or 4 days ealier perhaps. Anyway once the blocking reaches western greenland, the trough over the UK will introduce colder air from the NW pretty quickly. The WAA over alaska is also progged to continue, and the uppers are extremely warm over northern canada, with pacific winds even bringing heavy rain to alaska. My guess is, that this should stop any spoiler lows from developing from the PV. The weakened PV that is left in canada would be only capable of producing much weaker lows in the northern subtropics and southern temperate latitudes. Despite this, the jetstream is going to remain reasonably flat over our part of the world, which is slightly paradoxical. I think this corresponds to a very weak jetstream that will run just south of the UK. Given a height rise over greenland we would expect it to become less flat over the western atlantic, however a flat jet in the UK will cause stuff to come our way, abeilt slowly. So perhaps slider lows and an eventual collapse of the block, which would either become restablished if the WAA continues over N canada, or disintegrate into zonality if it doesn't (I was thinking that a flatish jetstream south of the UK could possibly lead to retrogression of HP to scandanavia, however this doesn't seem too plausible at the moment since thats basically where the PV is). 


However I do notably disagree with people on here that say the cold snap will be short lived. I would expect a good 5 days at the least. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Jonesy
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:09:55 PM

TEST http://meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2013112700/ECH100-240.GIF?27-12


Seeing what the problem is with Quantum's links


EDIT: Links are working Quantum, so it's how you insert them make sure you keep enough space when you paste them, i.e do have writing then paste without a space before. Like where it says Test.


Medway Towns (Kent)
The Weather will do what it wants, when it wants, no matter what data is thrown at it !
Gusty
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:11:20 PM


UKMO also looking very good, and the NAVGEM. 


BTW Ive really tried to post in charts, but I just can't seem to make them clickable. I don't think the URLs are invalid. If the unclickable nature is the only issue, then I will try and adress it; but it isn't despearately important. I'd be very concerned though if my links actually were ending up on 404 pages. 


Anyway, the events seem to have remakably panned out in much the way the models were suggesting over the last week. The deep high over the bearing, has produced strong WAA into the pacific arctic, promoting high pressure over northern canada (rather than greenland as originally thought). So now the HP over canada is merging with the high from the atlantic, as is to be expected with northern blocking about. The low heights over greenland are becoming less of an issue aswell with WAA now on our side. So the route was pretty indirect, but the results are pretty much the same. If the bearing high had directly merged with the greenland high instead of taking a more indirect route, then I would have expected the cold spell to have been seen on the models a good 3 or 4 days ealier perhaps. Anyway once the blocking reaches western greenland, the trough over the UK will introduce colder air from the NW pretty quickly. The WAA over alaska is also progged to continue, and the uppers are extremely warm over northern canada, with pacific winds even bringing heavy rain to alaska. My guess is, that this should stop any spoiler lows from developing from the PV. The weakened PV that is left in canada would be only capable of producing much weaker lows in the northern subtropics and southern temperate latitudes. Despite this, the jetstream is going to remain reasonably flat over our part of the world, which is slightly paradoxical. I think this corresponds to a very weak jetstream that will run just south of the UK. Given a height rise over greenland we would expect it to become less flat over the western atlantic, however a flat jet in the UK will cause stuff to come our way, abeilt slowly. So perhaps slider lows and an eventual collapse of the block, which would either become restablished if the WAA continues over N canada, or disintegrate into zonality if it doesn't (I was thinking that a flatish jetstream south of the UK could possibly lead to retrogression of HP to scandanavia, however this doesn't seem too plausible at the moment since thats basically where the PV is). 


However I do notably disagree with people on here that say the cold snap will be short lived. I would expect a good 5 days at the least. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Fair analysis Quantum.


One minor point to correct you on is your spelling of the word 'Bearing'...it should be spelt 'Bering'


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/stevewall69/ 



NickR
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:14:09 PM



UKMO also looking very good, and the NAVGEM. 


BTW Ive really tried to post in charts, but I just can't seem to make them clickable. I don't think the URLs are invalid. If the unclickable nature is the only issue, then I will try and adress it; but it isn't despearately important. I'd be very concerned though if my links actually were ending up on 404 pages. 


Anyway, the events seem to have remakably panned out in much the way the models were suggesting over the last week. The deep high over the bearing, has produced strong WAA into the pacific arctic, promoting high pressure over northern canada (rather than greenland as originally thought). So now the HP over canada is merging with the high from the atlantic, as is to be expected with northern blocking about. The low heights over greenland are becoming less of an issue aswell with WAA now on our side. So the route was pretty indirect, but the results are pretty much the same. If the bearing high had directly merged with the greenland high instead of taking a more indirect route, then I would have expected the cold spell to have been seen on the models a good 3 or 4 days ealier perhaps. Anyway once the blocking reaches western greenland, the trough over the UK will introduce colder air from the NW pretty quickly. The WAA over alaska is also progged to continue, and the uppers are extremely warm over northern canada, with pacific winds even bringing heavy rain to alaska. My guess is, that this should stop any spoiler lows from developing from the PV. The weakened PV that is left in canada would be only capable of producing much weaker lows in the northern subtropics and southern temperate latitudes. Despite this, the jetstream is going to remain reasonably flat over our part of the world, which is slightly paradoxical. I think this corresponds to a very weak jetstream that will run just south of the UK. Given a height rise over greenland we would expect it to become less flat over the western atlantic, however a flat jet in the UK will cause stuff to come our way, abeilt slowly. So perhaps slider lows and an eventual collapse of the block, which would either become restablished if the WAA continues over N canada, or disintegrate into zonality if it doesn't (I was thinking that a flatish jetstream south of the UK could possibly lead to retrogression of HP to scandanavia, however this doesn't seem too plausible at the moment since thats basically where the PV is). 


However I do notably disagree with people on here that say the cold snap will be short lived. I would expect a good 5 days at the least. 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


Fair analysis Quantum.


One minor point to correct you on is your spelling of the word 'Bearing'...it should be spelt 'Bering'


Originally Posted by: Quantum 



This is now taking on all the hallmarks of a Whitehall Farce. So insistent is he, I'm beginning to wonder whether "Bearing" is, in fact, correct.


Great contributions, though, Quantum. A good read as always. 


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
nouska
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:23:52 PM




UKMO also looking very good, and the NAVGEM. 


BTW Ive really tried to post in charts, but I just can't seem to make them clickable. I don't think the URLs are invalid. If the unclickable nature is the only issue, then I will try and adress it; but it isn't despearately important. I'd be very concerned though if my links actually were ending up on 404 pages. 


Anyway, the events seem to have remakably panned out in much the way the models were suggesting over the last week. The deep high over the bearing, has produced strong WAA into the pacific arctic, promoting high pressure over northern canada (rather than greenland as originally thought). So now the HP over canada is merging with the high from the atlantic, as is to be expected with northern blocking about. The low heights over greenland are becoming less of an issue aswell with WAA now on our side. So the route was pretty indirect, but the results are pretty much the same. If the bearing high had directly merged with the greenland high instead of taking a more indirect route, then I would have expected the cold spell to have been seen on the models a good 3 or 4 days ealier perhaps. Anyway once the blocking reaches western greenland, the trough over the UK will introduce colder air from the NW pretty quickly. The WAA over alaska is also progged to continue, and the uppers are extremely warm over northern canada, with pacific winds even bringing heavy rain to alaska. My guess is, that this should stop any spoiler lows from developing from the PV. The weakened PV that is left in canada would be only capable of producing much weaker lows in the northern subtropics and southern temperate latitudes. Despite this, the jetstream is going to remain reasonably flat over our part of the world, which is slightly paradoxical. I think this corresponds to a very weak jetstream that will run just south of the UK. Given a height rise over greenland we would expect it to become less flat over the western atlantic, however a flat jet in the UK will cause stuff to come our way, abeilt slowly. So perhaps slider lows and an eventual collapse of the block, which would either become restablished if the WAA continues over N canada, or disintegrate into zonality if it doesn't (I was thinking that a flatish jetstream south of the UK could possibly lead to retrogression of HP to scandanavia, however this doesn't seem too plausible at the moment since thats basically where the PV is). 


However I do notably disagree with people on here that say the cold snap will be short lived. I would expect a good 5 days at the least. 


Originally Posted by: NickR 


Fair analysis Quantum.


One minor point to correct you on is your spelling of the word 'Bearing'...it should be spelt 'Bering'


Originally Posted by: Gusty 



This is now taking on all the hallmarks of a Whitehall Farce. So insistent is he, I'm beginning to wonder whether "Bearing" is, in fact, correct.


Great contributions, though, Quantum. A good read as always. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


We could get round the problem with the more commonly used Aleutian high/ridge.

dicko
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:24:56 PM
It is spelt Bering after the Dutch explorer Vitus Bering , I hope this helps clear things up
Roonie
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:30:03 PM

It is spelt Bering after the Dutch explorer Vitus Bering , I hope this helps clear things up

Originally Posted by: dicko 


And just in case it does not....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bering_Sea


not to be confused with Barents Sea.......


Still Lurking.......

North Worcestershire
llamedos
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:37:16 PM




UKMO also looking very good, and the NAVGEM. 


BTW Ive really tried to post in charts, but I just can't seem to make them clickable. I don't think the URLs are invalid. If the unclickable nature is the only issue, then I will try and adress it; but it isn't despearately important. I'd be very concerned though if my links actually were ending up on 404 pages. 


Anyway, the events seem to have remakably panned out in much the way the models were suggesting over the last week. The deep high over the bearing, has produced strong WAA into the pacific arctic, promoting high pressure over northern canada (rather than greenland as originally thought). So now the HP over canada is merging with the high from the atlantic, as is to be expected with northern blocking about. The low heights over greenland are becoming less of an issue aswell with WAA now on our side. So the route was pretty indirect, but the results are pretty much the same. If the bearing high had directly merged with the greenland high instead of taking a more indirect route, then I would have expected the cold spell to have been seen on the models a good 3 or 4 days ealier perhaps. Anyway once the blocking reaches western greenland, the trough over the UK will introduce colder air from the NW pretty quickly. The WAA over alaska is also progged to continue, and the uppers are extremely warm over northern canada, with pacific winds even bringing heavy rain to alaska. My guess is, that this should stop any spoiler lows from developing from the PV. The weakened PV that is left in canada would be only capable of producing much weaker lows in the northern subtropics and southern temperate latitudes. Despite this, the jetstream is going to remain reasonably flat over our part of the world, which is slightly paradoxical. I think this corresponds to a very weak jetstream that will run just south of the UK. Given a height rise over greenland we would expect it to become less flat over the western atlantic, however a flat jet in the UK will cause stuff to come our way, abeilt slowly. So perhaps slider lows and an eventual collapse of the block, which would either become restablished if the WAA continues over N canada, or disintegrate into zonality if it doesn't (I was thinking that a flatish jetstream south of the UK could possibly lead to retrogression of HP to scandanavia, however this doesn't seem too plausible at the moment since thats basically where the PV is). 


However I do notably disagree with people on here that say the cold snap will be short lived. I would expect a good 5 days at the least. 


Originally Posted by: NickR 


Fair analysis Quantum.


One minor point to correct you on is your spelling of the word 'Bearing'...it should be spelt 'Bering'


Originally Posted by: Gusty 



This is now taking on all the hallmarks of a Whitehall Farce. So insistent is he, I'm beginning to wonder whether "Bearing" is, in fact, correct.


Great contributions, though, Quantum. A good read as always. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 

At the end of the day does it have any bearing on Quantum's thoughts though?


"Life with the Lions"

TWO Moderator
Maunder Minimum
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:50:46 PM


It is spelt Bering after the Dutch explorer Vitus Bering , I hope this helps clear things up

Originally Posted by: Roonie 


And just in case it does not....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bering_Sea


not to be confused with Barents Sea.......


Originally Posted by: dicko 


I got confused - I earlier said it should be Baring - a cross between the two...


So what area is Quantum trying to reference, the Bering Sea or the Barents Sea?


New world order coming.
Russwirral
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 5:03:57 PM

http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/gfsimages/gfs.20131127/12/192/h850t850eu.png


 


theres that storm again... anywhere north of the centre would get substantial snowfall... anywhere on the cusp would also get strong winds.


 


Potential for a Winter storm looms.


SnowyHythe(Kent)
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 5:05:31 PM
Hmmmm, bit of a snow fest for the 10th Dec on GFS this eve. JFF and all that....
Quantum
Wednesday, November 27, 2013 5:07:45 PM

Lol I was talking about the bering sea (correct spelling now I think). Its the bit of water/ice between alaska and russia. The reason Ive been banging on about it so much, for so long, is that I have thought for some time that the deep high over that region would promote northern blocking in the first week of dec. It looks like I am going to be proven right , but I think the confusion was caused by my incessant misspelling, which I promise wasn't intentional. I suppose, this is going to end up being one of my memes along with the navgem now  


 


Anyway the GFS12z illustrates what I said, in my last post 


http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/gfsimages/gfs.20131127/12/171/h500slp.png


The low that manages to push in between the canadian and mid atlantic high ends up being a slider. There is just no energy to deepen it and send it NE as would be typical. Tbh, I would expect the nature of such a low to be downgraded as we get closer to the time, so it might be the SW that ends up in the firing line for any snow, should the event arise. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
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