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roger63
17 December 2013 08:22:44

GEFS 0h has all Xmas  day ensembles with strong zonal flow.Subtle change to a more south westerly flow (80% ) compared to yesterday.

GIBBY
17 December 2013 08:30:13

Good morning everyone. Here is my take on the midnight outputs of the NWP (Numerical Westher Prediction) from the midnight outputs today Tuesday December 17th 2013.


All models show a period of potentially stormy weather with the exception of today where the weather is rather quieter as a brief ridge of high pressure crosses from the West. Later tonight and from tomorrow everywhere the winds will become strong for all from the SW and very strong for some with severe gale or even storm force gusts for a time in the NW later tomorrow as a vicious Low is shown to sweep NE across NW Scotland. Rain, very heavy for a time will sweep East followed by a 36-48 window of colder weather with strong West winds and showers, wintry on all hills even in the South and giving accumulations over Northern elevations. Then on Friday and the weekend the weather becomes milder again with spells of rain and gale force SW winds though the colder and showery variety of weather could spill back across at least Northern areas for a time again over the weekend.


The GFS operational run shows the run up to Christmas simply put as wet and windy with strong to gale SW winds and mild weather particularly in the South. Over Christmas itself the weather turns colder and there will be plenty of showers around for all areas, especially in the West driven in by gale force winds with snow on all high ground of the North and maybe in the South too at times. The very volatile pattern of rain followed by showers continues then up to and including the New Year with rain and strong winds alternating with colder and brighter spells with showers, wintry in the North.


UKMO shows next Monday as a windy and wet affair as another wave disturbance runs quickly East in the near gale WSW flow bringing further heavy rain across Southern areas through the day followed by righter colder and more showery weather in the north and West later.


GEM shows unsettled weather throughout next week, becoming deeply unsettled by Christmas with very low pressure values over the UK, strong Westerly winds and heavy rain and showers at times, increasingly falling as sleet and wet snow at times over high ground, especially over the Christmas period itself and in the North.


NAVGEM also shows a wet and relatively mild start to next week before things become more alternating over Christmas itself between wet and windy weather to rather colder and showery conditions with strong winds continuing unabated throughout.


ECM today shows a wet and windy run up to christmas followed by a rather chilly and very windy Christmas with squally showers of rain and hail with sleet and snow over the hills.


The GFS Ensembles continue to show no let up in the powerful Westerly flow across the Atlantic aided by a Jet Stream rushing East across the British Isles from the Atlantic. Hence periods of wet and windy weather is indicated from all members with an overall trend of maintaining average temperatures but very wet conditions at times for all.


The Jet Stream is shown to continue in it's powerful state crossing the Atlantic and over the UK in the period up until Christmas. Beyond that it sinks somewhat South at times bringing much of the UK on the cold side of the flow with the increased threat of wintriness in the showers for the UK later in the period.


In Summary the weather looks like remaining and becoming even more deeply unsettled throughout the forecast period this morning. All models show the potential of quite a wild Christmas with cold Westerly winds and wintry showers from which some places could indeed see a white Christmas though wide scale snowfall is not expected with the higher ground favoured for any settling snow albeit briefly. At other times severe gales could occur giving their own brand of travel disruption and when coupled with the likelihood of heavy rain with attendant flooding issues there looks to be plenty to talk about over the UK in the next few weeks weatherwise to distract observers from the family festive activities.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
ARTzeman
17 December 2013 08:35:08

Thanks Martin.


Sou-Westers,Gum Boots and string to tie the hat on are all ready..






Some people walk in the rain.
Others just get wet.
I Just Blow my horn or trumpet
RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
17 December 2013 08:52:06

Impressive jet streak for Christmas Day.


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121700/gfsnh-5-192.png?0


 


No sign of an end to the zonal train. What will it take to derail it?


Rob
In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.
Maunder Minimum
17 December 2013 09:11:38


Impressive jet streak for Christmas Day.


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121700/gfsnh-5-192.png?0


 


No sign of an end to the zonal train. What will it take to derail it?


Originally Posted by: RobN 


That is easy to answer - displacement of the PV, probably following an SSW - does not appear to be one on the cards anytime soon though.


There is a seasonal SSW effect in late February however, which is why the zonal train is sometimes derailed in that month in these types of winters. We can probably write off January however, unless we get an early strat warming - but that appears unlikely, if you read the strat threads.


New world order coming.
nsrobins
17 December 2013 09:15:21

My God, on this mornings GFS northern England and Scotland is under purple uppers by Boxing Day, what conditions could we expect at the surface?

Andy

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 


Cold rain, strong wnds, etc.
The low 500HPa values indicate a vertically deep low pressure (height in decametres of the 500HPa geopot). The lower the upper pressure the lower the height.
Of much more value to surface conditions are the 850HPa temps which on the chart you mention are between 0 and -3. Surface conditions would be strong westerly winds with showers and rain.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
David M Porter
17 December 2013 09:29:07



Impressive jet streak for Christmas Day.


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121700/gfsnh-5-192.png?0


 


No sign of an end to the zonal train. What will it take to derail it?


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


That is easy to answer - displacement of the PV, probably following an SSW - does not appear to be one on the cards anytime soon though.


There is a seasonal SSW effect in late February however, which is why the zonal train is sometimes derailed in that month in these types of winters. We can probably write off January however, unless we get an early strat warming - but that appears unlikely, if you read the strat threads.


Originally Posted by: RobN 


I recall though that the weather over the festive season last year was just as unsettled as at present and the model output at the time was little if at all better in terms of cold weather, and I guess that at that time there were some people that thought last January would continue in similar vein. But it didn't. I'm not sure if there was a SSW last January or not, but no way would I write off the whole of January coming at this time.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
micahel37
17 December 2013 09:59:34


I'm not sure if there was a SSW last January or not, but no way would I write off the whole of January coming at this time.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


There was indeed a well forecast SSW last January. I suspect it was a major factor in the very cold end to winter and the cold spring.


Polbeth, West Lothian 150m asl
JoeShmoe99
17 December 2013 10:03:01



Impressive jet streak for Christmas Day.


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121700/gfsnh-5-192.png?0


 


No sign of an end to the zonal train. What will it take to derail it?


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


That is easy to answer - displacement of the PV, probably following an SSW - does not appear to be one on the cards anytime soon though.


There is a seasonal SSW effect in late February however, which is why the zonal train is sometimes derailed in that month in these types of winters. We can probably write off January however, unless we get an early strat warming - but that appears unlikely, if you read the strat threads.


Originally Posted by: RobN 


Even then though the PV is so strong this year (far more so than the last 4 or 5 years) that even a strong SSW might not fragment it and even it does there is of course no gaurantee it is displaced where it favours NW europe


In the meantime those who quite like winter storms (i do!) have plenty to be interested in, sure beats cold grey anticyclonic gloom

Charmhills
17 December 2013 10:06:08

Yes, I would rather have the Atlantic than a euro high for weeks on end.


Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.
nsrobins
17 December 2013 11:22:44

No comment on the 06Z GFS run?


Thought not

(edit - that doesn't include my comment above)


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Rob K
17 December 2013 11:25:38


There is a seasonal SSW effect in late February however, which is why the zonal train is sometimes derailed in that month in these types of winters. We can probably write off January however, unless we get an early strat warming - but that appears unlikely, if you read the strat threads.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


That is a truly ridiculous thing to say in mid-December!


Could I just remind people that less than two weeks ago this thread was full of people saying "boring high pressure locked in till Christmas and beyond, anticyclonic gloom till the end of time, driest December on record... blah blah"


 


Now, instead, we are looking at one of the most unsettled periods of weather for a long time. In other words, the doom-mongers couldn't have been more wrong about this month. The models can and have flipped completely in the space of a week to 10 days, so making predictions about the whole of January is just silly.


 


 


Edit: Neil, I was going to comment. A brief pressure rise over Greenland just after Christmas looks like the best chance of some proper wintriness for the northern third of the UK: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn2401.png


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3002.png 


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
colin46
17 December 2013 11:36:45

just goes to prove that models beyond 5-6 days are meaningless and pointless


shine on you crazy diamond
192.104 m / 630.262 feet ASL
nickward_uk
17 December 2013 11:38:47



There is a seasonal SSW effect in late February however, which is why the zonal train is sometimes derailed in that month in these types of winters. We can probably write off January however, unless we get an early strat warming - but that appears unlikely, if you read the strat threads.


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


That is a truly ridiculous thing to say in mid-December!


 


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


Its very easy to see why some folks are feeling/sounding quite despondent - but thats a very good point...  It is only Mid december


I'm no forecaster, and gernerally stick to just browsing this thread feasting on the usually excellent insites the more experienced/knowledgeable folk have


That said, the many outdoor activities I regularly partake in mean I pay very close attention to the nowcast... and to me, it seems increasingly apparent that the seasons are shifting - everything is a good 4 weeks late happening these days... December is now almost only a transition month with January seeming to kick winter off.  The wintry weather is probably on a East Coast Mainline Train somewhere.. it'll get here eventually, just a little delayed ;)

nsrobins
17 December 2013 11:53:28


Could I just remind people that less than two weeks ago this thread was full of people saying "boring high pressure locked in till Christmas and beyond, anticyclonic gloom till the end of time, driest December on record... blah blah"


 

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


I agree wholeheartedly Rob and you post with a lot of common sense, but as Darren pointed out earlier we aren't even getting sporadic decent runs in the spread at the moment, a few of which you would normally expect even in the most zonal spells.

Yes synoptics do flip like a switch but from all the available data to hand today - ENS means, up tick in solar activity, lack of a modeled strat warming, a steep gradient across the eastern CONUS fueling an incessant jet, a PV seemingly rooted to our North - the very mobile, unsettled and fairly average temps look set in for some time.

Hope I'm wrong though and my bargain 40cm wide snow shovel has at least one outing in the next three months.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Russwirral
17 December 2013 12:13:21




There is a seasonal SSW effect in late February however, which is why the zonal train is sometimes derailed in that month in these types of winters. We can probably write off January however, unless we get an early strat warming - but that appears unlikely, if you read the strat threads.


Originally Posted by: nickward_uk 


That is a truly ridiculous thing to say in mid-December!


 


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


Its very easy to see why some folks are feeling/sounding quite despondent - but thats a very good point...  It is only Mid december


I'm no forecaster, and gernerally stick to just browsing this thread feasting on the usually excellent insites the more experienced/knowledgeable folk have


That said, the many outdoor activities I regularly partake in mean I pay very close attention to the nowcast... and to me, it seems increasingly apparent that the seasons are shifting - everything is a good 4 weeks late happening these days... December is now almost only a transition month with January seeming to kick winter off.  The wintry weather is probably on a East Coast Mainline Train somewhere.. it'll get here eventually, just a little delayed ;)


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


Its quite easy to think that the seasons are "shifting" as we hear in the press.  But i really cant express how much they are not.  we live in a temperate climate, which from time to time means we get warmth or cold.  On average our Decembers are usually mild and wet, and frosts usually only occur from lack of cloud cover and long nights.


On average i only remember say 3-4 wintry decembers, most of my xmasses have been green, and a good portion of the winter breaks i remember being stormy. 97, 99 are standout years for me.


We are surrounded by water meaning it takes out island a few more weeks than a large continent to cool doown - like wise in the summer to warm up! 


 


 


nickward_uk
17 December 2013 12:25:49




 


Its quite easy to think that the seasons are "shifting" as we hear in the press.  But i really cant express how much they are not.  we live in a temperate climate, which from time to time means we get warmth or cold.  On average our Decembers are usually mild and wet, and frosts usually only occur from lack of cloud cover and long nights.


 


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


 

Originally Posted by: nickward_uk 

Originally Posted by: Rob K 

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


I'll be honest - I've not heard this in the press.  This is based on my own experience of the weather - and not constrained to winter. 


But then I dont really listen tot eh press when it comes to weather - this thread usually has it nailed on (as much as its possible to do...

some faraway beach
17 December 2013 12:47:32

It's only three years since the UK enjoyed its coldest December for a century. That surely quashed any idea of December becoming a transition month for the foreseeable future. Just think of the generations of Britons who had lived their lives without ever experiencing a Christmas period like we did in 2010. I took my avatar picture on 24 Dec 2010, a few miles south of Taunton in the balmy West Country.


On topic, most of the UK and Ireland under 528 decametre thicknesses on Christmas Day according to the 6z:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?mode=3&ech=204


Combine that with the wind and rain and you'd hope not too many people will be nagged to go for a Christmas Day walk:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=204&mode=0


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Gooner
17 December 2013 12:48:00



There is a seasonal SSW effect in late February however, which is why the zonal train is sometimes derailed in that month in these types of winters. We can probably write off January however, unless we get an early strat warming - but that appears unlikely, if you read the strat threads.


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


That is a truly ridiculous thing to say in mid-December!


Could I just remind people that less than two weeks ago this thread was full of people saying "boring high pressure locked in till Christmas and beyond, anticyclonic gloom till the end of time, driest December on record... blah blah"


 


Now, instead, we are looking at one of the most unsettled periods of weather for a long time. In other words, the doom-mongers couldn't have been more wrong about this month. The models can and have flipped completely in the space of a week to 10 days, so making predictions about the whole of January is just silly.


 


 


Edit: Neil, I was going to comment. A brief pressure rise over Greenland just after Christmas looks like the best chance of some proper wintriness for the northern third of the UK: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn2401.png


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3002.png 


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Good post Rob, as you say it was High pressure all the way a week or so back now look what is in the offing


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Chiltern Blizzard
17 December 2013 13:25:51



There is a seasonal SSW effect in late February however, which is why the zonal train is sometimes derailed in that month in these types of winters. We can probably write off January however, unless we get an early strat warming - but that appears unlikely, if you read the strat threads.


Originally Posted by: nickward_uk 


That is a truly ridiculous thing to say in mid-December!


 


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


Its very easy to see why some folks are feeling/sounding quite despondent - but thats a very good point...  It is only Mid december


I'm no forecaster, and gernerally stick to just browsing this thread feasting on the usually excellent insites the more experienced/knowledgeable folk have


That said, the many outdoor activities I regularly partake in mean I pay very close attention to the nowcast... and to me, it seems increasingly apparent that the seasons are shifting - everything is a good 4 weeks late happening these days... December is now almost only a transition month with January seeming to kick winter off.  The wintry weather is probably on a East Coast Mainline Train somewhere.. it'll get here eventually, just a little delayed ;)

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 



After Decembers 2009 and 2010, I'm not where the notion 'everything is a good 4 weeks late these days' comes from! That said, I also hope wintry weather will get here evntually - my totally unscientific hunch is in the final third of Jan.

Andrew
Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
Maunder Minimum
17 December 2013 13:49:50



Could I just remind people that less than two weeks ago this thread was full of people saying "boring high pressure locked in till Christmas and beyond, anticyclonic gloom till the end of time, driest December on record... blah blah"


 

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


I agree wholeheartedly Rob and you post with a lot of common sense, but as Darren pointed out earlier we aren't even getting sporadic decent runs in the spread at the moment, a few of which you would normally expect even in the most zonal spells.

Yes synoptics do flip like a switch but from all the available data to hand today - ENS means, up tick in solar activity, lack of a modeled strat warming, a steep gradient across the eastern CONUS fueling an incessant jet, a PV seemingly rooted to our North - the very mobile, unsettled and fairly average temps look set in for some time.

Hope I'm wrong though and my bargain 40cm wide snow shovel has at least one outing in the next three months.


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


You have hit the nail on the head. Until we see a major change in the MO, transient cold spells as ridge follows trough, appears to be the best we can hope for.


My earlier comment was simply based on previous experience - of course the weather can bowl a googly and surprise us all, but until signs start to show up in the model output, we should expect zonality to rule the roost.


New world order coming.
colin46
17 December 2013 13:57:10

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/archive/ra/1963/Rrea00119630113.gif


shine on you crazy diamond
192.104 m / 630.262 feet ASL
colin46
17 December 2013 14:00:09

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/archive/ra/1963/Rrea00119630119.gif  if only


shine on you crazy diamond
192.104 m / 630.262 feet ASL
colin46
17 December 2013 14:08:01

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/archive/ra/1947/Rrea00119470216.gif                 i believe this was one of the coldest spells in the uk since records began


shine on you crazy diamond
192.104 m / 630.262 feet ASL
nickward_uk
17 December 2013 14:29:12




There is a seasonal SSW effect in late February however, which is why the zonal train is sometimes derailed in that month in these types of winters. We can probably write off January however, unless we get an early strat warming - but that appears unlikely, if you read the strat threads.


Originally Posted by: Chiltern Blizzard 


That is a truly ridiculous thing to say in mid-December!


 


Originally Posted by: nickward_uk 


 


Its very easy to see why some folks are feeling/sounding quite despondent - but thats a very good point...  It is only Mid december


I'm no forecaster, and gernerally stick to just browsing this thread feasting on the usually excellent insites the more experienced/knowledgeable folk have


That said, the many outdoor activities I regularly partake in mean I pay very close attention to the nowcast... and to me, it seems increasingly apparent that the seasons are shifting - everything is a good 4 weeks late happening these days... December is now almost only a transition month with January seeming to kick winter off.  The wintry weather is probably on a East Coast Mainline Train somewhere.. it'll get here eventually, just a little delayed ;)


Originally Posted by: Rob K 



After Decembers 2009 and 2010, I'm not where the notion 'everything is a good 4 weeks late these days' comes from! That said, I also hope wintry weather will get here evntually - my totally unscientific hunch is in the final third of Jan.

Andrew

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


Mostly it comes from the fact that for atleast the past 2 years, I've been doing everything later than I would normally, due to the weather - my summer climbing starts later, the sea fish I spear for come in later and the winter mountianeering starts later...  


 


I dont mean to suggests its a progressive, or neccesarily permenant... but certainly noticably, and a few mates who are farmers sugegst similar


 


 


 


 

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