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David M Porter
14 December 2014 09:35:17


agree with gavin - period post xmas and pre new year offers our first chance of a snow event this winter. (not that gav went that far!)


Originally Posted by: nickl 


The end of this morning's GFS run looks rather more interesting than many recent runs from that model. Still too far ahead to be taken seriously but it could, repeat could perhaps be onto something.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Justin W
14 December 2014 10:14:15

Nothing to get excited about for us southerners this morning although the odd long-fetch south-westerly with HP close to the SE will make things pretty pleasant at times.


A lot of scatter beyond high-res, a sure sign that people will tell us it's a sure sign that something's brewing. Aside from the GFS op, I can't see it.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Stormchaser
14 December 2014 10:30:12

Interesting that although the Euro models' idea of a stronger Atlantic ridge days 6-7 has been dropped, we now have ECM, GFSP and GFS agreeing that the low from Canada will be slow enough to permit a more amplified outcome in which it does not race NE to merge with low pressure to our N or NE, instead digging south in the middle of the North Atlantic.


It still results in a day or two of very mild SW'rlies around the NW flank of a strong Euro High, but the digging trough provides a means of eroding that in favour of another mid-Atlantic ridge around Christmas Day itself.


GFSP even suggests that the low could detach from the jet and allow a the ridge to build over the top of it.


 


If we get the digging trough and a decent mid-Atlantic ridge, it looks like the next steps will depend on yet another of those lows associated with the subtropical jet.


The behaviours shown by ECM and GFSP - either developing as a slow moving low separate from the main Atlantic jet (ECM, below-left) or tracking north and providing good warm air advection up the western flank of the ridge (GFSP, below-right) - are good for attempting a Christmas northerly. Obviously GFSP went off down a different road with a half-hearted Scandi High attempt but the Atlantic progression looks overdone to me.


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.  No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


 


Meanwhile the GFS run is a curious affair in lower-res (days 8-16) because it only allows the more amplified U.S. pattern to stand for a day or two before flattening it again, yet drives a rapid response to that fleeting influence in the form of a considerable Greenland High (perhaps even a full-on blocking feature), with a very interesting day 16 chart as the U.S. pattern amplifies once again.


 


Beyond the broad idea outlined at the top of this post, there's little if any cross-model consistency to work with this morning. Meanwhile GEFS are all over the place. A fair few feature a good push of cold from the north, but an irritatingly large number have powerful storms W and SW of the UK making a right mess of things, much like the 00z GFSP and GFS op runs.


 


For what it's worth, uppers below -5*C across pretty much the whole of the UK on Christmas Day is achieved by two GEFS members, with four coming very close. A larger number feature a very mild setup instead. During the following week, the number of notably cold outcomes increases markedly, as can be seen on the line graph for London:


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


 


When all's said and done though, the aspect of the output that I'm most pleased about is the major change in the Pacific pattern as the jet finally winds down over there, as the strong jet has been the main culprit behind the runs of colder conditions so far being fleeting affairs.


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Keep Calm and Forecast On
sizzle
14 December 2014 10:42:25

thanks stormchaser, a Excellent and very detailed, post, as always, laughing

Phil G
14 December 2014 10:42:59
GFS keeps toying with idea of moving the high pressure belt over the continent further south, which in turn allows more low pressure over us.
Could be a wet spell before a transition to a cold outbreak which could come from anywhere between the North and East.
The Beast from the East
14 December 2014 11:05:26

Encouraging FI again. Southerly jet and pressure rising to the NW. Probably wont come in time for the big day but perhaps we could get our once "traditional" post Xmas cold spell


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
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tallyho_83
14 December 2014 11:26:27
All a long way away but do you think this is a sign of a pattern change?

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3361.gif 
Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
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Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


White Meadows
14 December 2014 11:36:38


 It also shows up the fiction spouted from the likes of Madden and He Who Cant Be Named in recent weeks for the total pigswill it really is.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


can you explain that comment please?

Joe Bloggs
14 December 2014 11:59:06

Just a thought, I always like to look at the SLP ensembles for Reykjavik when approaching a potential pattern change.


What we really want to see is a rise in pressure over Iceland. It doesn't guarantee cold weather in the UK, but it often helps. 


I would post the latest 06z version but struggling on my phone... There is a trend to higher pressure there after Christmas, with a notable cluster breaching 1020 hPa.


Worth watching.. 



Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

Brian Gaze
14 December 2014 12:27:56

All in 'FI' of course but in 2009 and 2010 from recollection we saw a large number of GEFS runs bring very cold air across the UK at their outer limits as they latched onto a 'pattern change'. Currently there are signs of a shift but it all looks quite messy with very few runs suggesting persistent cold, and a number punching the cold shot down to the west with the UK remaining relatively mild. I'm looking forward to the watching the nwp during the coming week but it will take a LOT more evidence before I'm convinced.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Fothergill
14 December 2014 12:28:29

Still looking poor for coldies until Christmas but tentative signs of some kind of pattern change as we head into the New Year? There's been a steady increase in more blocked charts around that period lately. The NAEFS anomaly chart is interesting for the 27th


 



Suggests potential for a mid-Atlantic high possibly riding up to Greenland. However at this point a full blown Greenland high doesn't look likely as the PV looks to remain around that area, so maybe nothing too prolonged.



So if we get lucky, something like the GFS 06z control. Of course its silly looking at details at this range but just musing.


colin46
14 December 2014 12:50:16

All a long way away but do you think this is a sign of a pattern change?

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

No">http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3361.gif

No


shine on you crazy diamond
192.104 m / 630.262 feet ASL
JACKO4EVER
14 December 2014 13:24:36
I will know when the pattern changes to a colder outlook- Steve M will start his excellent posts. Until then, looking reasonably mild at times, especially so midweek coming.
Gooner
14 December 2014 15:47:55

I will know when the pattern changes to a colder outlook- Steve M will start his excellent posts. Until then, looking reasonably mild at times, especially so midweek coming.

Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 


He isn't shy of a post on N W


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
14 December 2014 15:53:15

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/cfs/runs/2014121400/run1m/cfsnh-0-492.png?00


CFS


Start of January


JFF of course


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


JACKO4EVER
14 December 2014 16:00:33


 


He isn't shy of a post on N W


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


I don't bother with N W Marcus, just preferring to cast my misery here... LOL


A few tentative signs of some pattern change ahead.... Some interesting model watching coming up this week for sure 

Phil G
14 December 2014 16:21:48
That big storm to the NW of Iceland wasn't there on the 6z.
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1621.gif 
idj20
14 December 2014 16:31:34

That big storm to the NW of Iceland wasn't there on the 6z.
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1621.gif

Originally Posted by: Phil G 



Pressure being above 1035 mb over the South East of the UK . . . I'd bank that. Mind you, it does involve a fair bit of Atlantic incursion = anticyclonic gloom.


Folkestone Harbour. 
doctormog
14 December 2014 16:38:52
Once again there is interest in the deepest darkest depths of FI in the 12z GFS op run:

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3601.gif 
jondg14
14 December 2014 16:39:58

That big storm to the NW of Iceland wasn't there on the 6z.
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1621.gif

Originally Posted by: Phil G 


It's not there on the 12z UKMO either. Very different charts at 144hrs:


 


 



Each run seems to lead to more doubt at the moment even in the short to medium range let alone FI.

Phil G
14 December 2014 16:46:08
GFS continues to show the high pressure belt to the south slowly being eroded away, but it is such a slow process.
Can see a wet spell to welcome in the new year, with perhaps a cold outbreak thereafter.
doctormog
14 December 2014 16:46:15

I rather like the GFS parallel run's 12z output so far: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rpgfs2131.gif


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rpgfs2222.gif 


I'm not sure the bookies will like it too much if that continues. 


Still at least it shows that nothing is set in stone.


Quantum
14 December 2014 17:10:15

I haven't been posting that much recently because I've been using my 'TWO time' to play with GRADS. I'm making quite a lot of progress. I hope people won't mind if I show some of the fruitions of my work. This is the 'lake effect potential chart'.



I'm very proud of this, essentially it is the crude method I have mentioned before to determine the lake effect potential, that is the snow shower (or rain shower if you are unlucky) potential from cold air masses. I am using the 850hpa temperature data and the global SST data here. Because the SST data only updates every week (I think) the lake effect potential is likely to be somewhat overestimated at this time of year.


Anyway the higher the number, the greater the chance of seeing the snow showers. 13C is the minimum to reliably see snow showers (provided it is cold enough of course), while 17C would make moderate, heavy, or prolonged snow showers likely. Anything above 21 (yellow or red on this chart) would suggest thunder storms.


Hope you enjoy :) 


Please note there are other important factors, such as wind direction and sheer. In the former case the wind needs to be pointing from the bright colours towards the coast line, and in the later case the wind direction should change as much as possible with altitude. I'll add wind vectors and sheer contours in future maps.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Gooner
14 December 2014 17:24:31

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/runs/2014121412/gfsnh-0-222.png?12


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/runs/2014121412/gfsnh-0-348.png?12


GFSP giving some interesting options


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Brian Gaze
14 December 2014 17:27:27

First UK wide cold snap of the winter between Xmas and the NY on the 12z GFSP:



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

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