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The Beast from the East
14 December 2014 17:32:16

Yet again we see pressure rising towards Greenland post day 10. Could happen sooner, maybe in time for Christmas but good consistency emerging. The most interesting run up to Christmas for 4 years


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
NDJF
14 December 2014 17:58:24

interesting synoptics but still nothing of confidence from Exeter....yet?

Ally Pally Snowman
14 December 2014 18:12:17


 


Yes a massive snowfest to end the GFSP. Some sort of snow event between Christmas and New Year is definitely possible.


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=360&mode=2&runpara=1


 


 


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Brian Gaze
14 December 2014 18:39:32

The vast majority of the GEFS tonight at 384 still do not support a long cold spell. You can step through them all here:


http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/datmdlout.aspx


Nonetheless there is some twitching taking place and I expect MOGREPS is similar. The best guidance during the coming week is likely to be the MetO extended range forecast and the GEFS. They both need to begin firming up otherwise I'd still back a continuation of the present pattern with high pressure to the south putting a brake on any potential. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Whether Idle
14 December 2014 18:52:00


The vast majority of the GEFS tonight at 384 still do not support a long cold spell. You can step through them all here:


http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/datmdlout.aspx


Nonetheless there is some twitching taking place and I expect MOGREPS is similar. The best guidance during the coming week is likely to be the MetO extended range forecast and the GEFS. They both need to begin firming up otherwise I'd still back a continuation of the present pattern with high pressure to the south putting a brake on any potential. 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


 A level headed summary, thank you Brian 


Edit: My forward guidance for taking note of FI with regard to a possible cold spell and the end of the year is to wait and see what the models are showing by next weekend before drawing too many conclusions.  Nevertheless, the possibility of a pattern change does make for more interesting model watching than we have been used to of late, even if it may, like so many other situations in the past, end up being a red herring. 


Keep Calm and Carry on Watching


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Zubzero
14 December 2014 18:56:31

GEFS do not have a clue what will happen after the 20th 


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/runs/2014121412/graphe3_1000_283_88___.gif


 


The smart money would be on what the ECM is showing with a continuation of the standard UK winter borefest


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2014121412/ECH1-240.GIF?14-0 

idj20
14 December 2014 19:08:15

Until we get to all that, it does seem that fresh to strong westerly wind associated with a zonal-type set up is going to be the dominating weather feature over the next few days . . .



Folkestone Harbour. 
Stormchaser
14 December 2014 19:36:11

Ouch ECM -  the Christmas Grinch of the models this evening!


There is one major point at which it chooses the pretty much the worst option on the table if you're looking at cold conditions around Christmas Day.


This happens days 6-7, when instead of having a low linger off the coast of Newfoundland such as the GFSP (below-left), GFS and GEM runs do, it totally removes low heights from the area (below-right).


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.  No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


This ECM solution favours a trough NW of the UK with the northerly taking place on the other side of the North Atlantic while we're in a mild SW flow. It's essentially amplification in the wrong place to do the UK any good within the target period.


By day 10, the U.S. pattern is becoming seriously amplified and as a trough digs down west of the Azores, a high would be able to rapidly develop just NW of the UK and at least attempt to draw up the Euro High in the process. Not the most secure route to take!


 


GFSP does a great job tonight of showing how the highly amplified upstream pattern can allow a strong Euro High to be transformed into a well amplified mid-Atlantic ridge in the space of two days:


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.  No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


Some fascinating output from that model, the likes of which has been long awaited by the likes of myself 


I daresay ECM would at least show similar potential if it ran out to 384 hours like GFSP does - the strong East Pacific ridge and trough digging down across the East U.S. is almost identical across the two.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
White Meadows
14 December 2014 19:39:27
A couple of definite sharp droppers on the Nao group tonight.
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/pna/new.nao_index_ensm.html 

The sensible assumption would take them as outliers or not connected to any cold spell but the signal remains... For now
Whether Idle
14 December 2014 20:12:39


GEFS do not have a clue what will happen after the 20th 


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/runs/2014121412/graphe3_1000_283_88___.gif


 


The smart money would be on what the ECM is showing with a continuation of the standard UK winter borefest


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2014121412/ECH1-240.GIF?14-0 


Originally Posted by: Zubzero 


This from Fergie on NW:


12z EC-EPS awaited, but nothing surprising in broad output... the DET remains in keeping with Exeter's thoughts from today's earlier analysis looking into the 10-15d period:



"... 00z DECIDER products still indicate remarkably low levels of (Shannon) entropy throughout the f/c period, corresponding to relatively high levels of confidence in the associated forecast (zonal) pattern. Examination of latest circulation biases indicate some weakening of the strong westerly component into the trend period, although mobility from the western quadrant is still indicated."


Not Gospel, but giving a guide out to around 29 December, I wouldn't bet against this. 


 


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Stormchaser
14 December 2014 20:30:56

The 12z ECM op run's day 6-7 handling has support from the 12z JMA op run.


Of the other op runs, GFS and GEM go with a flat pattern days 7-9 before amplification brings a northerly day 10.


GFSP is alone in having such a prominent Atlantic ridge to our NW by day 8.


 


5 GEFS runs follow a similar route to the GFS op run.


Nearly all runs go on to develop large storms around the Azores which prevent what is often extensive high latitude blocking from bringing Arctic or Polar air to the UK. Again similar to the GFS op run in that sense.


The amplifying Pacific/U.S. pattern is gaining more and more support for days 8-16 (i.e. the second week of the forecast period) but we need to hope that the GFS and GEFS output to be displaying their usual over-progressive nature. The GFSP 12z op run does a fair job of showing what the GEFS would look like with the progressiveness turned down a bit.


 


Bringing it all together, the pattern for the final week of December currently looks like being the most favourable for a significant incursion of Arctic air that we've had in the past two months. I must stress 'currently' because all I'm doing here is working with recent model output and trends.


There seems to be a chance of a transient northerly before that period, which may coincide with Christmas if we are extremely lucky (or unlucky depending on your situation!), but this is really just another version of the various chances we've been having of late, in which we need the timing and placement of various features to be just right in order to get anything much. If we saw a significant cold spell arrive that early, it would represent a very fast result from the Pacific/U.S. amplification, not something I would bet on at this point in time.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
sizzle
14 December 2014 20:39:11

amazing post again stormchaser just like others on here i cant thank you enough for your posts they are so detailed and intresting and exciting to read.thanks alot matey, [  i have read else where some artic change over xmas post xmas into the new year, and gavins blog flash is  a VERY intresting read to, which he has just updated a while ago, laughing [ sorry if im off topic ] laughingcool

David M Porter
14 December 2014 21:21:56


The 12z ECM op run's day 6-7 handling has support from the 12z JMA op run.


Of the other op runs, GFS and GEM go with a flat pattern days 7-9 before amplification brings a northerly day 10.


GFSP is alone in having such a prominent Atlantic ridge to our NW by day 8.


 


5 GEFS runs follow a similar route to the GFS op run.


Nearly all runs go on to develop large storms around the Azores which prevent what is often extensive high latitude blocking from bringing Arctic or Polar air to the UK. Again similar to the GFS op run in that sense.


The amplifying Pacific/U.S. pattern is gaining more and more support for days 8-16 (i.e. the second week of the forecast period) but we need to hope that the GFS and GEFS output to be displaying their usual over-progressive nature. The GFSP 12z op run does a fair job of showing what the GEFS would look like with the progressiveness turned down a bit.


 


Bringing it all together, the pattern for the final week of December currently looks like being the most favourable for a significant incursion of Arctic air that we've had in the past two months. I must stress 'currently' because all I'm doing here is working with recent model output and trends.


There seems to be a chance of a transient northerly before that period, which may coincide with Christmas if we are extremely lucky (or unlucky depending on your situation!), but this is really just another version of the various chances we've been having of late, in which we need the timing and placement of various features to be just right in order to get anything much. If we saw a significant cold spell arrive that early, it would represent a very fast result from the Pacific/U.S. amplification, not something I would bet on at this point in time.


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


Thanks James. Seems that something with a bit more interest may develop as we move nearer to the end of December- we shall see!


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
TomC
  • TomC
  • Advanced Member
14 December 2014 21:40:57


The vast majority of the GEFS tonight at 384 still do not support a long cold spell. You can step through them all here:


http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/datmdlout.aspx


Nonetheless there is some twitching taking place and I expect MOGREPS is similar. The best guidance during the coming week is likely to be the MetO extended range forecast and the GEFS. They both need to begin firming up otherwise I'd still back a continuation of the present pattern with high pressure to the south putting a brake on any potential. 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Its about 50/50 for a cold spell at T+360 on both MOGREPS and ECM

Brian Gaze
14 December 2014 21:47:44


 


Its about 50/50 for a cold spell at T+360 on both MOGREPS and ECM


Originally Posted by: TomC 


Sounds more favourable for a cold spell than GEFS. Interesting. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Ally Pally Snowman
14 December 2014 22:02:18


 


Its about 50/50 for a cold spell at T+360 on both MOGREPS and ECM


Originally Posted by: TomC 


 


Matt Hugo only going for 30% ec ens. So maybe MOGREPS more favourable?


 


Matt Hugo Twiitter.


Small minority for now still but 16 out of 51 EC ENS members show a similar blocked evolution as per the GFS after approx 26th.


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
sunny coast
14 December 2014 22:19:24

countryfile forecast said nothing remarkable about the weather for next ten days either average temps or maybe mild into next week

Quantum
14 December 2014 22:31:03

The formation of a Greenland high in low res may be something to watch, sometimes epic cold can come out of vague trends in low resolution. I'm not getting my hopes up though when it takes until 300hrs to get that 552 isopleth to greenland 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
14 December 2014 22:32:17


 


 


Matt Hugo only going for 30% ec ens. So maybe MOGREPS more favourable?


 


Matt Hugo Twiitter.


Small minority for now still but 16 out of 51 EC ENS members show a similar blocked evolution as per the GFS after approx 26th.


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


A few weeks ago wasn't it said that 50% of the EC members pointed to cold? 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Chiltern Blizzard
14 December 2014 22:39:48


I haven't been posting that much recently because I've been using my 'TWO time' to play with GRADS. I'm making quite a lot of progress. I hope people won't mind if I show some of the fruitions of my work. This is the 'lake effect potential chart'.



I'm very proud of this, essentially it is the crude method I have mentioned before to determine the lake effect potential, that is the snow shower (or rain shower if you are unlucky) potential from cold air masses. I am using the 850hpa temperature data and the global SST data here. Because the SST data only updates every week (I think) the lake effect potential is likely to be somewhat overestimated at this time of year.


Anyway the higher the number, the greater the chance of seeing the snow showers. 13C is the minimum to reliably see snow showers (provided it is cold enough of course), while 17C would make moderate, heavy, or prolonged snow showers likely. Anything above 21 (yellow or red on this chart) would suggest thunder storms.


Hope you enjoy :) 


Please note there are other important factors, such as wind direction and sheer. In the former case the wind needs to be pointing from the bright colours towards the coast line, and in the later case the wind direction should change as much as possible with altitude. I'll add wind vectors and sheer contours in future maps.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


 


You've been busy...  Hopefully you'll have many chances to put it to the test over the coming months, and see if the "red" colours really do deliver snow thunderstorms over the UK!   Based on the above, Western Greenland seems to be the place to be if you want extreme snow...  The nearest settlement to this appears to be Qeqertarsuaq, but according to worldweatheronline, its partly cloudy and cold (-11c) tomorrow....  Either convective snow activity isn't picked up on this forecast,the forecast is wrong, or other factors are at play?  Regarding this, to what extent does atmospheric stability play I wonder to your predictions... Clearly a significant air/sea difference will create some instability in itself, but whether it occurs near the centre of a windless high pressure system or in the midst of low pressure system with steep thermal gradients would have a major, possibly the major, influence. 


Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
Stormchaser
14 December 2014 22:48:22

GFS 18z op run has shifted much closer to the GFSP 12z op run, with the jet energy tracking west to east days 6-7 rather than southwest to northeast, this taking LP away from both Greenland and the low near Canada.


It's not building the high to our NW as rapidly as GFSP did, though.


Meanwhile GFSP has also increased the separation between the low near Canada and the one passing just North of the UK. The consistency with the previous run is impressive, though that high to the NW is not quite as strong... no surprises there given that the GFSP 12z was the most positive of all runs in that area.


 


Given that this represents a shift further away from ECM's version of events by both of the above models, it means we have a major disagreement at just 6-7 days range to sort out tomorrow. Details beyond that aren't worth paying much attention to until this matter is settled.


 


I see the 18z GFS op is then too progressive with the low off the U.S. to allow the Atlantic ridge time to establish, and does the same again with the one after it as well. That's been the main troublemaker in the vast majority of GEFS runs lately. Again, hoping that's the old progressive bias showing its hand. The charts start to look more interesting again towards the end of week two, much as to be expected given the background signals at play.


The 18z GFSP is also too progressive with the first low, but not with the second.


So get this... the GFS runs have increased the room for a mid-Atlantic ridge to form days 6-7, moving further away from the ECM solution, but despite this have gone on to be more progressive, making them appear closer to ECM days 8-10.


You couldn't make it up could you?


It also highlights just how many factors need to fall into place to get the mid-Atlantic ridge and cold shot around Christmas.


 


Remember, this is a totally separate period of potential to the much greater one that looks likely to develop for the final week of the month. It attempts to unfold prior to the upstream Pacific/U.S. changes being able to exert much influence on our pattern.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Medlock Vale Weather
14 December 2014 22:52:49

Well lets hope that HP to our south doesn't hang on and get larger, I don't want a repeat of Bartlett xmas 2011. It felt so mild and wrong lol


As ever things can and do change quickly. Here's hoping for better charts tomorrow. 


Alan in Medlock Valley - Oldham's frost hollow. 103 metres above sea level.
What is a frost hollow? http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/Frost-hollow.htm 
Quantum
14 December 2014 22:54:06


 


 


You've been busy...  Hopefully you'll have many chances to put it to the test over the coming months, and see if the "red" colours really do deliver snow thunderstorms over the UK!   Based on the above, Western Greenland seems to be the place to be if you want extreme snow...  The nearest settlement to this appears to be Qeqertarsuaq, but according to worldweatheronline, its partly cloudy and cold (-11c) tomorrow....  Either convective snow activity isn't picked up on this forecast,the forecast is wrong, or other factors are at play?  Regarding this, to what extent does atmospheric stability play I wonder to your predictions... Clearly a significant air/sea difference will create some instability in itself, but whether it occurs near the centre of a windless high pressure system or in the midst of low pressure system with steep thermal gradients would have a major, possibly the major, influence. 


Originally Posted by: Chiltern Blizzard 


Yeh this is only one factor (albeit a very important one!), the main thing is that the wind does need to be blowing from the sea, so if there is just a blob of high pressure over a cold air-mass it might show yellows and reds, whereas in reality there would be nothing there. For the UK it should perform better because you don't usually get insanely cold air-masses trapped under shallow highs, and if the air is frigidly cold the wind is probably from the north or east! 


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Gooner

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