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nsrobins
26 December 2014 08:01:11

In summary only the old GFS of the big three keeps the block patent to the east. UKM and ECM along with GFSP both collapse the high SE and allow westerlies in, although at +144 on the UKM a colder S drift still exists in the South.

If there are data issues, the bulk of the NWP is doing a very good job of coming up with the same result this morning. Even at this late stage though, there is still just enough time to save the Scandy block scenario as it's demise depends largely on the behaviour of this weekend's low and any subsequent shortwave developments which have yet to be resolved.


 


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Matty H
26 December 2014 08:07:17

The data issue thing is banded around every Xmas when the models don't show snowmageddon. Someone, and I cannot remember who, disproved it as nonsense on here a couple of years back. 


Retron
26 December 2014 08:28:20


Someone, and I cannot remember who, disproved it as nonsense on here a couple of years back. 


Originally Posted by: Matty H 


Wasn't me, and it's clearly not nonsense! A big loss in observation data will have some effect and no matter how small it'll still have an impact on the model output. It won't be until later today that things finally get back to normal. Over on the other channel they're saying that the models will compensate for lost data (true to a limited extent, but you can't "magic up" lost data) and that data loss happens every day (also true, but you don't lose half the aircraft obs each day!).


In short - data loss happens at Christmas. Whether it has much effect is open to debate.


FWIW, here are the data figures for aircraft, ship and SYNOP observations so far.


Time  Aircraft  Ship/Synop obs
23/06 113141 73720
23/12 112318 65868
23/18 192319 73024
24/00 193542 63402
24/06 115009 73299
24/12 101293 65816
24/18 177831 72963
25/00 155527 63069
25/06   62505 72938
25/12   49240 65391
25/18 151856 72553
26/00 154841 62917


Leysdown, north Kent
Matty H
26 December 2014 08:31:52

No it wasn't you. IIRC it was either Brian or that wanabee weather god that used to come on here preaching about SSW and scorning anyone who didn't kneel before him. In which case, that makes sense now. 


nsrobins
26 December 2014 08:32:10


The data issue thing is banded around every Xmas when the models don't show snowmageddon. Someone, and I cannot remember who, disproved it as nonsense on here a couple of years back. 


Originally Posted by: Matty H 


To coin a phrase you often use, I wonder if people read these threads first before posting


Darren posted a link yesterday to show the reduction in aircraft data input , but these obs may only effect the first day or so of the higher-resolution output and later stages may be smoothed or else interpolated data used.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Matty H
26 December 2014 08:33:29


 


To coin a phrase you often use, I wonder if people read these threads first before posting


Darren posted a link yesterday to show the reduction in aircraft data input , but these obs may only effect the first day or so of the higher-resolution output and later stages may be smoothed or e lse interpolated data used.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


the irony of your opening sentence is above 


 


Retron
26 December 2014 08:50:21


In which case, that makes sense now. 


Originally Posted by: Matty H 


TBH, it's one of those things I wish I'd checked years ago - for whatever reason I just didn't think to see if ECM data acquisition stats were available. Still, the actual effects are unquantifiable so although the question of whether data loss occurs is solved, the question of what effect it has will probably never be answered fully.


(I seem to remember it first coming to prominence back in the bad old days of the late 90s, not even on this board - for a few years in a row the models, especially MRF*, switched from zonal to more blocked and back to zonal over Christmas Day/Boxing Day. Once TWO came along, people posted who'd been on the BBC boards, usw etc and thus the question of data loss was brought over. And as people then filtered over to UKWW and NW, so it followed to there as well. It's the stuff of (a not very exciting) legend!)


* MRF was nicknamed Misleading Rubbishy Forecast as a result of these swings that happened over Christmasses past. In time it turned into AVN and these days it's the GFS.


Leysdown, north Kent
The Beast from the East
26 December 2014 08:53:15


In summary only the old GFS of the big three keeps the block patent to the east. UKM and ECM along with GFSP both collapse the high SE and allow westerlies in, although at +144 on the UKM a colder S drift still exists in the South.

If there are data issues, the bulk of the NWP is doing a very good job of coming up with the same result this morning. Even at this late stage though, there is still just enough time to save the Scandy block scenario as it's demise depends largely on the behaviour of this weekend's low and any subsequent shortwave developments which have yet to be resolved.


 


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


NAVGEM holds the block as well. The only model that had done this consistently


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
The Beast from the East
26 December 2014 08:57:14

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/run/gens-19-1-150.png?0


Quite a few GEFS members hold the block. This isnt dead yet


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Matty H
26 December 2014 09:04:32


 


TBH, it's one of those things I wish I'd checked years ago - for whatever reason I just didn't think to see if ECM data acquisition stats were available. Still, the actual effects are unquantifiable so although the question of whether data loss occurs is solved, the question of what effect it has will probably never be answered fully.


(I seem to remember it first coming to prominence back in the bad old days of the late 90s, not even on this board - for a few years in a row the models, especially MRF*, switched from zonal to more blocked and back to zonal over Christmas Day/Boxing Day. Once TWO came along, people posted who'd been on the BBC boards, usw etc and thus the question of data loss was brought over. And as people then filtered over to UKWW and NW, so it followed to there as well. It's the stuff of (a not very exciting) legend!)


* MRF was nicknamed Misleading Rubbishy Forecast as a result of these swings that happened over Christmasses past. In time it turned into AVN and these days it's the GFS.


Originally Posted by: Retron 


AVN! Bloody hell there's a blast from the past. I'd forgotten that.


Steve Murr
26 December 2014 09:04:36
Er The UKMO doesnt flatten is an undercutter....
Nothing like ECM

uKMO has the -4c line moving West @ 144 into england
Yesterdays 144 had the 0c line on the SE coast.....

S
nsrobins
26 December 2014 09:06:17


 


the irony of your opening sentence is above 


 


Originally Posted by: Matty H 


LOL. I typed my post then had to get some emergency hangover relief before posting


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
nsrobins
26 December 2014 09:07:24

Er The UKMO doesnt flatten is an undercutter....
Nothing like ECM

uKMO has the -4c line moving West @ 144 into england
Yesterdays 144 had the 0c line on the SE coast.....

S

Originally Posted by: Steve Murr 


Morning Steve. So are sausages still on the menu?


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Matty H
26 December 2014 09:09:29


 


LOL. I typed my post then had to get some emergency hangover relief before posting


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


You have my complete sympathy 


Still, can start all over again today 


Back on topic - sausage meat. 


The Beast from the East
26 December 2014 09:09:31


 


Morning Steve. So are sausages still on the menu?


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Ian Brown has eaten them all


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Rob K
26 December 2014 09:19:36

Er The UKMO doesnt flatten is an undercutter....
Nothing like ECM

uKMO has the -4c line moving West @ 144 into england
Yesterdays 144 had the 0c line on the SE coast.....
S

Originally Posted by: Steve Murr 


Yes both GFS and UKMO look more interesting today. A shortage of deep cold to the east but still could lead to a chilly spell. It's certainly bloody freezing here in my in-laws' house already!


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
NickR
26 December 2014 09:33:33


 


Yes both GFS and UKMO look more interesting today. A shortage of deep cold to the east but still could lead to a chilly spell. It's certainly bloody freezing here in my in-laws' house already!


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Is that more because of the atmosphere after some less than appreciated presents were given, though?


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
Rob K
26 December 2014 09:33:46
Interesting ppn charts on the high res models

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/wrfnmm.php?ech=22&mode=42&map=5 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Maunder Minimum
26 December 2014 09:41:04

Interesting ppn charts on the high res models

Originally Posted by: Rob K 

">http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/wrfnmm.php?ech=22&mode=42&map=5


hugely disappointing for my back yard - everything is shown 200 miles too far north (when it comes to snow instead of rain).


 


New world order coming.
Tim A
26 December 2014 09:44:33

Interesting ppn charts on the high res models

Originally Posted by: Rob K 

">http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/wrfnmm.php?ech=22&mode=42&map=5


 


Comes complete with a rain pixel for the Stockport area. That would be unfair after the repeated occasions that phenomenon occured in 2012/13. 


Tim
NW Leeds
187m asl

 My PWS 
Gavin P
26 December 2014 09:44:38

High pressure certainly more robust on GFS 00z. Models always try and break down high pressure too quickly, so wouldn't rule out things panning out like GFS 00z show's.


Rural West Northants 120m asl
Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids
Rob K
26 December 2014 10:01:01
Chance of an overnight dusting in favoured spots of the southeast too.

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/wrfnmm.php?ech=30&mode=42&map=5%3C/div%3E%3C/div%3E 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
White Meadows
26 December 2014 10:31:26


 


TBH, it's one of those things I wish I'd checked years ago - for whatever reason I just didn't think to see if ECM data acquisition stats were available. Still, the actual effects are unquantifiable so although the question of whether data loss occurs is solved, the question of what effect it has will probably never be answered fully.


(I seem to remember it first coming to prominence back in the bad old days of the late 90s, not even on this board - for a few years in a row the models, especially MRF*, switched from zonal to more blocked and back to zonal over Christmas Day/Boxing Day. Once TWO came along, people posted who'd been on the BBC boards, usw etc and thus the question of data loss was brought over. And as people then filtered over to UKWW and NW, so it followed to there as well. It's the stuff of (a not very exciting) legend!)


* MRF was nicknamed Misleading Rubbishy Forecast as a result of these swings that happened over Christmasses past. In time it turned into AVN and these days it's the GFS.


Originally Posted by: Retron 

so, does that mean the data loss issue remains a myth? 


 

squish
26 December 2014 11:54:36
The general consensus would be a return to a mobile pattern as the high retreats SE. However this is less certain than 24hrs ago, and some models show quite a strong continental block holding

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rgme1321.gif 
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
Stormchaser
26 December 2014 11:57:45

Netweather GFS Image


Looking at the output across Scandinavia, that section of jet heading into Russia is our downfall. If it had curved back around toward Norway, the ridge across Scandinavia would have been able to build over the top, keeping more in the way of low heights to the south of it while giving the Atlantic lows a harder time riding up over the top.


It's a good example of how close we usually come to a decent easterly without getting there.


The strength of that jet into Russia will determine just how much cold air is able to pool to our east in the next 5 days or so.


It then comes down to low pressure in the vicinity of Italy to try and advect that cold air west to the UK, while any shift in the angle of the Atlantic jet away from SW-NE will also help as we than have less of a westerly drift working against the easterly drift... fine margins indeed!


So how likely is it that the Atlantic jet will align more favourably? Well, being Boxing Day and all, I can't be bothered to do the usual cross-model comparisons for this one (shock horror!), but past experience suggests that there's a good chance it will shift at least a little more towards S-N orientation out west of the UK days 4-5.


As for the strength and westward extent of the Italy low, that one is anyone's guess really - there's been no coherent trend of any kind across the models for a stronger or weaker low, and the same goes for how far west it locates.


 


It may also be worth keeping an eye on how fast a shortwave low moves up the East U.S. Coast days 3-5, as this is currently being shown to send the jet on a more SW-NE track and bring to an end an (admittedly quite feeble) attempt to undercut the UK high. If that feature was slowed down the high would be able to gain a much better foothold, as the GFS 00z op run showed us nicely.


So far today, GFS has adjusted to to a much faster feature on the 06z while GFSP has a slightly slower feature on it's 06z compared to 00z output... so no real trend there either.


 


Further ahead, still plenty of signals for the polar vortex to be unstable, with bits of it shifting about all over the place, and today's runs determined to send a large chunk of it right down to the UK as we see another very strong poleward ridge through Alaska. Still early days on this new direction of travel and not surprising to see ECM taking it further than GFSP (but the GFS 00z was an interesting exception, it's willingness to disrupt the Atlantic jet really quite unusual for that model!).


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On

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