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Quantum
  • Quantum
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
13 November 2015 21:09:27

Here is my view, feel free to disagree. I think naming depressions is a bad idea for the following reasons


Confusion between storms of a tropical origin (including ex-hurricanes) and mid-latitude systems.


Risk of association of severe weather with 'storm' systems. The most severe weather that the UK gets can be completely disassociated with 'storms', including heavy lake effect snow in the winter, and thunderstorms in the summer (including the boscastle event).


Wind field distribution is highly asymmetrical, and as a result the strongest winds are not necessarily near the centre. In a tropical storm the closer the centre is to you, the worse the weather; in a mid-lat system is is not necessarily the case, in fact passing slightly to the north of the centre can potentially result in glorious sunshine and light winds.  


Rain distribuition is even more disconnected from the centre, in a tropical storm the centre passing over always means heavy rain whilst in a mid-latitude depression rain and cloud is associated with fronts. Let's say there is a 'storm' due to hit Scotland but a squally cold front brings torrential rain in the south; do we say the storm has hit the south because that is where the worst weather is, or hit the north despite being fine. Either way confusion is inevitable particularly since in extreme cases the centre could be 1000 miles away and we still get severe weather. 


Generally unnecessary: we already have a system of weather warnings (yellow, orange and red) which deals with all severe weather. Why complicate the matter by naming depressions?


How is this going to deal with secondary systems. In the winter a parent low can spawn a secondary low, and it tends to be the secondary low is far more violent than the primary; do both get names, does just the primary get a name, does just the secondary get a name?! 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Saint Snow
13 November 2015 21:25:13


Here is my view, feel free to disagree. I think naming depressions is a bad idea for the following reasons


Confusion between storms of a tropical origin (including ex-hurricanes) and mid-latitude systems.


Risk of association of severe weather with 'storm' systems. The most severe weather that the UK gets can be completely disassociated with 'storms', including heavy lake effect snow in the winter, and thunderstorms in the summer (including the boscastle event).


Wind field distribution is highly asymmetrical, and as a result the strongest winds are not necessarily near the centre. In a tropical storm the closer the centre is to you, the worse the weather; in a mid-lat system is is not necessarily the case, in fact passing slightly to the north of the centre can potentially result in glorious sunshine and light winds.  


Rain distribuition is even more disconnected from the centre, in a tropical storm the centre passing over always means heavy rain whilst in a mid-latitude depression rain and cloud is associated with fronts. Let's say there is a 'storm' due to hit Scotland but a squally cold front brings torrential rain in the south; do we say the storm has hit the south because that is where the worst weather is, or hit the north despite being fine. Either way confusion is inevitable particularly since in extreme cases the centre could be 1000 miles away and we still get severe weather. 


Generally unnecessary: we already have a system of weather warnings (yellow, orange and red) which deals with all severe weather. Why complicate the matter by naming depressions?


How is this going to deal with secondary systems. In the winter a parent low can spawn a secondary low, and it tends to be the secondary low is far more violent than the primary; do both get names, does just the primary get a name, does just the secondary get a name?! 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


 


I think you worry too much.



Martin
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Aneurin Bevan
Norseman
13 November 2015 21:40:50

It certainly brought a lot more attention up here to the first one and as such more people were aware of it and took the necessary precautions. Whether the awareness would continue as naming becomes routine I don't know.

Solar Cycles
13 November 2015 21:58:30
Another one who thinks its a daft idea, it's kind of like trying to sex up our gales American style.
nsrobins
13 November 2015 22:01:51

I agree Q. It's an ill-conceived Americanism that will only serve to further confuse the public.
Your point about daughter runners is particularly valid. Take the scenario where a parent low, otherwise unnamed because if falls below the naming criteria, spawns a rapidly deepening daughter low at short notice that goes on to deliver 80mph+ across a swathe of middle England real-estate. I can see the headlines now - 'Storm with no name causes havoc'.

I only hope this stupid idea is dropped as soon as possible.

And no Saint, I don't worry too much :)


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
13 November 2015 22:07:03

I like it myself - it's going to be much more meaningful to say 'Do you remember Abigail in 2015?' rather than 'Didn't we have a gale from a depression which dipped to 960mb?'  Certainly for the public at large, even if there are weather fans in here with memories like elephants.


 


As for the problems with secondary lows, I'm content to wait and see, though I can see them being referred to as e.g. Abigail's daughter.


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Quantum
  • Quantum
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
13 November 2015 22:15:15


I agree Q. It's an ill-conceived Americanism that will only serve to further confuse the public.
Your point about daughter runners is particularly valid. Take the scenario where a parent low, otherwise unnamed because if falls below the naming criteria, spawns a rapidly deepening daughter low at short notice that goes on to deliver 80mph+ across a swathe of middle England real-estate. I can see the headlines now - 'Storm with no name causes havoc'.

I only hope this stupid idea is dropped as soon as possible.

And no Saint, I don't worry too much :)


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Agreed, I think names are a privilege that should only be bestowed upon tropical systems. I, however, do think that medicanes should be named. Are we going to name individual fronts aswell? 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Gusty
13 November 2015 22:20:22


I like it myself - it's going to be much more meaningful to say 'Do you remember Abigail in 2015?' rather than 'Didn't we have a gale from a depression which dipped to 960mb?'  Certainly for the public at large, even if there are weather fans in here with memories like elephants.


 


As for the problems with secondary lows, I'm content to wait and see, though I can see them being referred to as e.g. Abigail's daughter.


Originally Posted by: DEW 


Agree Dew. I don't think its done any harm. Even my wife asked if the squall last night was due to Abigail..she is normally clueless when it comes to weather. 


Agree wrt people worrying too much. 


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
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nsrobins
13 November 2015 22:21:38


I like it myself - it's going to be much more meaningful to say 'Do you remember Abigail in 2015?' rather than 'Didn't we have a gale from a depression which dipped to 960mb?'  Certainly for the public at large, even if there are weather fans in here with memories like elephants.


 


As for the problems with secondary lows, I'm content to wait and see, though I can see them being referred to as e.g. Abigail's daughter.


Originally Posted by: DEW 


Surely 'Abigail B' would be more suitable? If the diffluent exit region spawns a tertiary wave which sometimes happens then would it be 'Abigail C' or more accurately 'Abigail AB'.


I say stick to dates and not names. What's wrong with 'The Burns Day' storm? If a storm is that major it's remembered whether it has a name or not.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
nsrobins
13 November 2015 22:26:43


 


Agree Dew. I don't think its done any harm. Even my wife asked if the squall last night was due to Abigail..she is normally clueless when it comes to weather. 


Agree wrt people worrying too much. 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


But the problem is in this current climate of criminal disinformation and misconception, adding names to maritime low pressure systems only adds another confusing veneer to be used and abused by the gutter press.


What next - sponsorship? Storm Tesco causes disruption?

I'm not going to say another word - there's more important things for me to allocate my dwindling brain to. But it is, in my opinion, stupid.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
ARTzeman
13 November 2015 22:38:31

Facts and figures are not always remembered. A name is easier yo refer to and to recall to mind.






Some people walk in the rain.
Others just get wet.
I Just Blow my horn or trumpet
AIMSIR
14 November 2015 01:14:59


 


 Are we going to name individual fronts aswell? 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 

RobR
  • RobR
  • Advanced Member
14 November 2015 01:53:19

With my poor memory it helps to have named systems, though I do remember some of the bigger storms that were given names as such. I think it raises awareness which is a good thing. Be interesting to see what month they stop naming storms (i.e if we get a deep low during Spring to Summer - will it be named?).


I also don't think it helps that ex-Hurricane Kate is so close to our first named storm which may throw some confusion.


Winter 23/24 in Nantwich
Days Snow Falling: 4
Days Snow Lying: 1
Deepest Snowfall: 3rd December 23 (2cm)



Winter 22/23 in Nantwich

Days Snow Falling: 4
Days Snow Lying: 2
Deepest Snowfall: 10th March (3cm)
Latest Snowfall: 10th March

Winter 21/22 in Nantwich

Days Snow Falling: 3
Days Snow Lying: 1
Deepest Snowfall: 28th November (3cm)
Latest Snowfall: 31st March

Winter 20/21 in Solihull

Days Snow Falling: 21
Days Snow Lying: 8
Deepest Snowfall: 24th January (9cm)
Latest Snowfall: 12th April

Winter 19/20 in Stoke

Days Snow Falling: 5
Days Snow Lying: 2
Deepest Snowfall: 10th Feb (5cm)

Winter 18/19 in Stoke

Days Snow Falling: 6
Days Snow Lying: 6
Deepest Snowfall: 29th Jan (3cm)

Winter 17/18 in Stoke

Days Snow Falling: 27
Days Snow Lying: 24
Deepest Snowfall: 18th March 2018 (10cm)
nickl
14 November 2015 08:40:20

it engages the public. it works.


my staff were busy looking at the midday squall yesterday and thought it was abigail.  does it matter that it wasnt?

NMA
  • NMA
  • Advanced Member
14 November 2015 10:47:26


I agree Q. It's an ill-conceived Americanism that will only serve to further confuse the public.
Your point about daughter runners is particularly valid. Take the scenario where a parent low, otherwise unnamed because if falls below the naming criteria, spawns a rapidly deepening daughter low at short notice that goes on to deliver 80mph+ across a swathe of middle England real-estate. I can see the headlines now - 'Storm with no name causes havoc'.

I only hope this stupid idea is dropped as soon as possible.

And no Saint, I don't worry too much :)


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


 


I agree it is a confusing idea and think it is more to do with reminding us that storms are getting windier perhaps. The tv was on the other day with the sound off when I saw a funny flabby shaped low with the new name. I thought that's an odd shaped hurricane before I twigged it was the new system for warning the public. An active cold front can cause havoc yet will not be named so I hope they drop the idea of naming depressions. The current low with copious rain has no name yet may cause more disruption than the first named one.


Nick


 


Vale of the Great Dairies
South Dorset
Elevation 60m 197ft
idj20
14 November 2015 11:47:33

Can't say that I am a big fan of it myself, mainly for the reasons as already mentioned in here (media over sensationalising it, the general public confusing winter Atlantic systems for Caribbean hurricanes, etc). Speaking as an amateur forecaster running my own Facebook page, I think it's going to give me more of a headache than any benefits derived out of it.
  What happens when the main named system continue to hang over Iceland, out of harm's way, but it start spawning a train of secondary "runners" anyway? Those often cause more disruption than the main event and yet probably won't get named. I think it'll just muddy the waters further still.
  From what I've read so far, it is an experimental thing so I'll give it a chance and see if it does work. Never know, I might warm to it . . . eventually.
 


Folkestone Harbour. 
ozone_aurora
14 November 2015 12:27:22


Here is my view, feel free to disagree. I think naming depressions is a bad idea for the following reasons


Confusion between storms of a tropical origin (including ex-hurricanes) and mid-latitude systems.


Risk of association of severe weather with 'storm' systems. The most severe weather that the UK gets can be completely disassociated with 'storms', including heavy lake effect snow in the winter, and thunderstorms in the summer (including the boscastle event).


Wind field distribution is highly asymmetrical, and as a result the strongest winds are not necessarily near the centre. In a tropical storm the closer the centre is to you, the worse the weather; in a mid-lat system is is not necessarily the case, in fact passing slightly to the north of the centre can potentially result in glorious sunshine and light winds.  


Rain distribuition is even more disconnected from the centre, in a tropical storm the centre passing over always means heavy rain whilst in a mid-latitude depression rain and cloud is associated with fronts. Let's say there is a 'storm' due to hit Scotland but a squally cold front brings torrential rain in the south; do we say the storm has hit the south because that is where the worst weather is, or hit the north despite being fine. Either way confusion is inevitable particularly since in extreme cases the centre could be 1000 miles away and we still get severe weather. 


Generally unnecessary: we already have a system of weather warnings (yellow, orange and red) which deals with all severe weather. Why complicate the matter by naming depressions?


How is this going to deal with secondary systems. In the winter a parent low can spawn a secondary low, and it tends to be the secondary low is far more violent than the primary; do both get names, does just the primary get a name, does just the secondary get a name?! 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Totally agree with you!

nsrobins
14 November 2015 15:39:32


my staff were busy looking at the midday squall yesterday and thought it was abigail.  does it matter that it wasnt?


Originally Posted by: nickl 


I think you've contradicted your own argument.
The confusion over whether an active trough loosely associated with a named parent low should have the same name as said parent low is exactly what I predict.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
KevBrads1
14 November 2015 18:02:03

No, I'm not a fan.


MANCHESTER SUMMER INDEX for 2021: 238
Timelapses, old weather forecasts and natural phenomena videos can be seen on this site
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgrSD1BwFz2feWDTydhpEhQ/playlists
Quantum
  • Quantum
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
16 November 2015 13:49:40

Case in point, 'storm' barney will be centred just north of shetland with the worst winds in the south of England.


This is just going to confuse the public, regardless of whether it is stipulated that the storm is north of shetland or in the south of England. 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Gavin P
16 November 2015 17:01:08

I'm not a fan of this either (and you know, I generally take to all things gimmicky  ) but I think this does muddy the waters too much between tropical storms and mid-latitude depressions.


Leave named storms for the tropics. 


Rural West Northants 120m asl
Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids
snow 2004
16 November 2015 19:28:17

Not a fan myself. I heard far too many people talking about "Hurricane Abigail" last week. Had to bite my teeth and go along with it.


Glossop Derbyshire, 200m asl
Essan
16 November 2015 19:58:40


Case in point, 'storm' barney will be centred just north of shetland with the worst winds in the south of England.


This is just going to confuse the public, regardless of whether it is stipulated that the storm is north of shetland or in the south of England. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 



And there could be stronger winds over parts of Scotland on Wednesday from an, as yet un-named, similar secondary low ....


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
16 November 2015 19:59:49


Case in point, 'storm' barney will be centred just north of shetland with the worst winds in the south of England.


This is just going to confuse the public, regardless of whether it is stipulated that the storm is north of shetland or in the south of England. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


So what? It's a major storm which is going to affect virtually all of the UK. Though if named storms are going to follow each other at 3-day intervals, perhaps the criteria should be tighter.


But here's a thought. What about naming fogs? or freezes?


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Essan
16 November 2015 20:44:22

It certainly does make the general public more aware of the potential for bad weather - had someone ring me this afternoon to ask about Barney (at which point I hadnt seen anything to suggest any particularly bad weather - had to make a quick look to see what all the fuss was about!).   The downside is when the weather isnt actually that bad and folk go back to complacency.

I suppose it is an interesting experiment?


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA

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