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Gavin P
23 November 2015 10:21:24


The El Nino background state is attempting to reinforce itself in the model output, hence the Azores High being displaced into Europe on a number of recent operational runs.


Unless tropical convection pulls out some new surprises, the theme of higher heights over Europe should gain ground over the coming few days. That's not to say they'll become stuck there like we had during the first half of November, but some periods of unusually high temps do look possible in between the polar maritime incursions. Following recent events, I'm not ruling out another unusual event or two though.


The current output has pretty much trended toward what the analogue years suggested we'd see in December this year, i.e. low pressure to our NW and high pressure Azores to Europe, while high pressure in the vicinity of Siberia is left relatively undisturbed. A good snow cover advance feedback is enhancing the Siberian High even further during the foreseeable future, which is promising for later in the season. So it all fits well with the theoretical side of things, but of course it's the theory that's behind the way in which the model handles certain situations, hence it can be considered most impressive if a model spots an unusual deviation a good way in advance.


 


The model trends of the past few days coupled with how things have panned out this month have reinforced my belief that our main hope for a significant cold, snowy spell of weather affecting locations beyond the usual benefactors lies with stratospheric wave breaking associated with that Siberian High, the hope being that this can achieve results by midwinter rather than mid-February as would be typical of a 'classic' El Nino winter. The hybrid nature of this year's events and its wobbles toward a more central ('Modoki') type event could prove helpful in this regard but a lot of this has little or no precedents to work with so... we're flying with (even) poorer vision than usual this season 


I know there are those who find it hard to place faith in stratospheric events and I can understand why; about half the time the resulting weather patterns end up shaped in the wrong way for the UK. Recent research has started to clarify the reason for this, though - it's to do with where the wave breaking takes place from. It turns out that wave breaking from the American side of the Pacific e.g. via an Alaskan Ridge tends to push polar vortex remnants toward Greenland, which is what happened last winter in late Jan/early Feb, diminishing and cutting short what would otherwise have been a decent cold spell for many of us.


Wave breaking from the Asian side, via a Siberian High, is another matter entirely, with high pressure over Greenland a favoured result.


Yet even then promises can't be made, as that high can end up too far west, the cold air plunging into the middle of the North Atlantic. So really, major strat. warming events are actually not that reliable at all - but when you have other background signals working against a cold pattern for the UK, they're among the most promising means of escaping the usual westerly regime. Such will be the case this winter... unless the El Nino goes full-on Central Pacific by the end of this year, which would be truly exceptional!


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


 


That was fantastic James.... You don't want to take over from me @ GWV for a while so I can have a sleep do you? 


Rural West Northants 120m asl
Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids
picturesareme
23 November 2015 10:49:00


In the meantime, 2 metres of snow fell in Roskilde, Denmark at the weekend.


Some people have all the fun!


http://www.tv2lorry.dk/artikel/28672 
 

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


more like 60cm in the deepest parts... 2 meters is an over exaggeration or drifts.


http://www.thelocal.dk/20151123/denmark-braces-for-cold-after-weekend-snowstorm

Saint Snow
23 November 2015 11:47:53


 


more like 60cm in the deepest parts... 2 meters is an over exaggeration or drifts.


http://www.thelocal.dk/20151123/denmark-braces-for-cold-after-weekend-snowstorm


Originally Posted by: picturesareme 


 


Pah! 60cm? Not worth bothering with 


 




Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Scandy 1050 MB
23 November 2015 12:01:00


 


Excellent explanation there James, many thanks.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


Couldn't agree more, very interesting post. Speaking of which unlike last year which was always deep FI, already some warming in the right place at the moment in 162 hours:


 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=162&mode=10&carte=1


 


Seems to be having multiple goes at it too as you go through the time frame, nothing like as warm to cause any disturbance at this stage and technically still FI, but potentially encouraging to see this so early on.  In the meantime looks average to mild temperatures with wet and windy spells at times for at least this week.

LeedsLad123
23 November 2015 14:32:13
We get an average of 3-4 days with snow on the ground in December and 4-5 in Jan/Feb so it's far from rare. Not common either.
Whitkirk, Leeds - 85m ASL.
Whether Idle
23 November 2015 17:32:11

An announcement on the expected weather for the next 2 weeks from network rail:


"Full steam ahead for the zonal express.  There will be scheduled stops of polar Maritime, but the destination of Tropical maritime looks likely to be reached in on a daily basis and though there may be the odd interruption to the zonal train from an occasional blob of high pressure on the line, though with the new jet-enhanced cleaning function available,  any interruptions to normal service should be transient and fleeting"


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
GIBBY
23 November 2015 21:05:32

While we are looking at some potentially very windy and wet weather over the next week or so with some cold incursions for the North at times each model run to me seems to increasingly be pointing towards another mild week coming up next week as winds back more towards the SW and High pressure positions itself in an awful position for supporting cold across the UK i.e. over France and Spain. All models now seem to be leaning this way with even tonight's ECM 10 Day Mean showing higher pressure than this morning's with a move of 100mls or so further North of the Jet Stream. Not as mild as last week but comparatively mild to what we have now.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
squish
23 November 2015 21:59:38
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn841.gif 

A deep low in the med at this time of year would normally suggest a better chance of an easterly incursion - but not any sign of that in the next 2 weeks. Dire charts really.....
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
Saint Snow
23 November 2015 22:04:23


with a move of 100mls or so further North of the Jet Stream.


Originally Posted by: GIBBY 


 


it's moving the wrong way!




Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Russwirral
23 November 2015 22:50:17

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn841.gif

A deep low in the med at this time of year would normally suggest a better chance of an easterly incursion - but not any sign of that in the next 2 weeks. Dire charts really.....

Originally Posted by: squish 


 


I really wouldnt worry to much...  theres lots of odd things going on which im actually encouraged by.


 


This for example


 


http://max.nwstatic.co.uk/gfsimages/gfs.20151123/18/186/h850t850eu.png


 


The slightest hint of of a high pressure developing to the north.  Its smaller features like this that tend to hint towards subtle changes on the horizon... Its almost like the charts are putting a big question mark over a part of the world.


 


I wouldnt be surprised if we see another repeat of last weekends action, some time soon.  But perhaps a little more potent as we enter Winter proper.


 


Im all about spotting repetitive patterns going into Winter.  ie last winter was a pattern of north westlery winds followed by colder and colder incursions - northwesterly topplers if you like, the year before was more of storm after storm, the year before was one of Cold air block to the north east with Lps hitting then falling south of the UK... time and time again.   


 


Edit:


 


Heres a good example of what i mean.


 


http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/charts/gfs/18_240_mslp500.png?cb=485


 


This is an almost identical chart i saw about 10 days ago for last weekend.  If the winter had a dozen of these reloads - id be a happy man.  Plenty of good ingredients in that kinda setup.


 


 


 


 


Russwirral
23 November 2015 22:56:11

Saying that - we could be heading for a Greenland high on this run.... this could be a bit of a magic run if it develops correctly.


 


Edit - not quite... Jetstream scoops up the slack HP to the north and sends it to Scandi... which morphs into the Euro HP...... 


 


one to watch 🙂 :)


Gusty
24 November 2015 06:47:30

Very mild, frost free and mobile to greet the first day of meteorological winter. Supported well by the other output too. 



Steve - Folkestone, Kent
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doctormog
24 November 2015 07:22:45
Definitely a very mobile outlook from the west across the models this morning.

Nothing especially extreme with the forecast for here showing double figure temperatures in 2 days time and snow in 4. Rather typical for November and potentially rather windy and unsettled at times.
Scandy 1050 MB
24 November 2015 07:48:35

Some interest from GFS this morning, more pronounced strat warming this morning than yesterday and unusually not been put back either plus at least on the Asian side;


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=138&mode=10&carte=1


Still not to the orange and red levels though which could have an impact, but worth keeping an eye on.


GFS has a go at a scandy high in deep FI but gets blown away at the end of the run:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=252&mode=0


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=276&mode=0


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=384&mode=0


Worth watching though as could be a one off run or a signal for something, let's see if any other models come on board in the next few days. Expecting ECM to be a bore fest when it comes out later unless you like late Autumn to be mild of course.


 

Charmhills
24 November 2015 07:58:06

So to sum things up in two words gunk and dross for the next 10 days at least.


Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.
Tractor Boy
24 November 2015 08:20:18


GFS has a go at a scandy high in deep FI but gets blown away at the end of the run:


Originally Posted by: Scandy 1050 MB 


 


P9 gets there but this is shameless cherry picking.


Dave
Farndale, North York Moors
Gooner
24 November 2015 09:11:29

http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/charts/gefs/gefsens850london0.png?cb=977


 


Looks a load of rubbish


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


JACKO4EVER
24 November 2015 09:34:18


Very mild, frost free and mobile to greet the first day of meteorological winter. Supported well by the other output too. 



Originally Posted by: Gusty 


Not a bad chart for the mild camp- that Euro high may take some moving

roger63
24 November 2015 10:00:21


Saying that - we could be heading for a Greenland high on this run.... this could be a bit of a magic run if it develops correctly.


 


Edit - not quite... Jetstream scoops up the slack HP to the north and sends it to Scandi... which morphs into the Euro HP...... 


 


one to watch 🙂 :)


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


Some of the ens on GEFS show HP development in F1.However they are currently a minority.Even if HP develops to the east the strong jet tends to push it way SE.Not much sign of strong ridging either for a northerly outbreak.To get anything worthwhile requires northern blocking and no sign of that in current model output.Frankly I've written off December as another NAO + month.


When is Met office 3 month contingency forecast due?

Gooner
24 November 2015 10:10:32

I dont see how December can be written off on November 24th , you should know better than that Roger


 


 


Now where did that Easterly come from lol


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


roger63
24 November 2015 10:38:12


I dont see how December can be written off on November 24th , you should know better than that Roger


 


 


Now where did that Easterly come from lol


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


 Gooner Hope you are right about the easterly.I should know better but Meto seem to have changeable nera  average up to 22nd December.

Maunder Minimum
24 November 2015 11:00:14


 


Not a bad chart for the mild camp- that Euro high may take some moving


Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 


It must be fun being a mildie - you are rarely disappointed. Once the Euroslug takes hold, that is it for a few weeks at least.


New world order coming.
kmoorman
24 November 2015 12:13:02
I thought I'd pop in to see if there was anything to cheer me up.

I wish I hadn't now 😉
Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
Follow me on Twitter @kmoorman1968
GIBBY
24 November 2015 12:24:42


 


Some of the ens on GEFS show HP development in F1.However they are currently a minority.Even if HP develops to the east the strong jet tends to push it way SE.Not much sign of strong ridging either for a northerly outbreak.To get anything worthwhile requires northern blocking and no sign of that in current model output.Frankly I've written off December as another NAO + month.


When is Met office 3 month contingency forecast due?


Originally Posted by: roger63 


To be fair I think he was making his predictions based on the trend of all the output shown currently and that is if anything strengthening the threat of very mild SE/NW split in the weather coming up again from next week and because of the nature of these setups they can be an absolute stubborn animal to break out of once established which on past proof has given the UK weeks and weeks of mild weather in Winters past without a hint of cold. I am not of course saying that this is going to happen this time round but it does look like the chance of anything wintry is put back to well into December at least unless the models start to diverge from their current output soon.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
moomin75
24 November 2015 13:26:28


I dont see how December can be written off on November 24th , you should know better than that Roger


 


 


Now where did that Easterly come from lol


Originally Posted by: Gooner 

Even with your positive nature Marcus I think deep-down you know December can all but be written off. You've been here long enough to know that this zonal train is very hard to shift.


I am leaving the UK on December 30th for the whole of January so that month will be freezing with lots of snow. 


Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL

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