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sriram
  • sriram
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
10 December 2015 20:18:12

why is the Cet - the central England temperature - based for the month for  average temperatures in the Midlands


doesnt make sense if a warm average temp for the month is recorded in the Midlands for say Dec- other parts of the U.K. might have had a very different month 


 

Sriram
Sedgley, West Midlands ( just south of Wolverhampton )
162m ASL
Essan
10 December 2015 20:36:33

Because it is the Central England Temperature series

Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
sriram
  • sriram
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
10 December 2015 20:51:08
Yes - but just because it is mild all month in say December in the Midlands - it is not safe to say that people in Scotland, Wales, northern England, east Anglia have had the same mild weather

Basing an index for how warm or cold a month is countrywide - on the average temperature for the month recorded in the Midlands does not make sense to me

If there was an index that averaged out temps for several parts of the U.K. - surely that would be more accurate ?
Sriram
Sedgley, West Midlands ( just south of Wolverhampton )
162m ASL
Essan
10 December 2015 21:00:46

Yes - but just because it is mild all month in say December in the Midlands - it is not safe to say that people in Scotland, Wales, northern England, east Anglia have had the same mild weather

Basing an index for how warm or cold a month is countrywide - on the average temperature for the month recorded in the Midlands does not make sense to me

If there was an index that averaged out temps for several parts of the U.K. - surely that would be more accurate ?

Originally Posted by: sriram 




Yes,  and the Met Office provide that data too

Hence the comparison charts on their website

ie

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/summaries/anomalygraphs

and


http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/summaries/actualmonthly


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
10 December 2015 21:06:13

It would be reasonable to think that the Central England Temperatures relate to the region we call The Midlands and that if temperatures were recorded for the whole of the UK, it would be called UKT - United Kingdom Temperatures.


However, the stations used for the CET are not actually all in the English region we know as the Midlands.  In the case of the CET, central doesn't mean the English Midlands.  Some stations are further North and some further South than the Midlands.  I don't know why it's called Central England, I suppose it means they're not coastal, but I'm sure someone on here will know exactly where the stations are.  You might be better asking on the CET competition thread.

Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
Join the fun and banter of the monthly CET competition.
Rob K
10 December 2015 21:16:42

Yes - but just because it is mild all month in say December in the Midlands - it is not safe to say that people in Scotland, Wales, northern England, east Anglia have had the same mild weather

Basing an index for how warm or cold a month is countrywide - on the average temperature for the month recorded in the Midlands does not make sense to me

If there was an index that averaged out temps for several parts of the U.K. - surely that would be more accurate ?

Originally Posted by: sriram 


 


The CET is not meant to be a measure of the temperature "countrywide". That's why it is called the CET. I am puzzled by how you could think it is? 

Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Essan
10 December 2015 21:44:29


It would be reasonable to think that the Central England Temperatures relate to the region we call The Midlands and that if temperatures were recorded for the whole of the UK, it would be called UKT - United Kingdom Temperatures.


However, the stations used for the CET are not actually all in the English region we know as the Midlands.  In the case of the CET, central doesn't mean the English Midlands.  Some stations are further North and some further South than the Midlands.  I don't know why it's called Central England, I suppose it means they're not coastal, but I'm sure someone on here will know exactly where the stations are.  You might be better asking on the CET competition thread.


Originally Posted by: Caz 




The CET stations are Pershore (Worcestersire), Rothamsted (Hertfordshire), Stonyhurst (lancashire)


They encompass central England, hence the name.   However in the past other stations have been used, although I think only Ross on Wye really extended much beyond the current area.

Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
11 December 2015 18:02:28

Thanks Andy.  That's pretty much as I thought and the only one anywhere near the Midlands is Pershore.  I am surprised there are only three stations as I'd imagined there were more.  That's another wrinkle in me' bum!  

Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
Join the fun and banter of the monthly CET competition.
Bertwhistle
11 December 2015 19:41:32


It would be reasonable to think that the Central England Temperatures relate to the region we call The Midlands and that if temperatures were recorded for the whole of the UK, it would be called UKT - United Kingdom Temperatures.


However, the stations used for the CET are not actually all in the English region we know as the Midlands.  In the case of the CET, central doesn't mean the English Midlands.  Some stations are further North and some further South than the Midlands.  I don't know why it's called Central England, I suppose it means they're not coastal, but I'm sure someone on here will know exactly where the stations are.  You might be better asking on the CET competition thread.


Originally Posted by: Caz 


Manley's temperature register related to an area at the time thought to be representative of England without its singular location towards the sea, thus forming an extension of the European continent which, of course, doesn't work for us (as we find out with frequent disappointment at the height of summer and depth of winter each year).


The UK temperature, as explained on this thread, is more representative of our islands, but the CET is maintained (albeit with different 'inland' locations)  not only because it provides the first great non-local, prolonged record (using a variety of secondary sources dating back to the late 17th Century- a century before Gilbert White) but also because there is a degree of historical respect for such endeavours whose early contribution to our mapping of the broader-than-my-area weather and climate would be lost.


Not that it should be considered merely a museum piece- we applaud all sorts of records on here, from time lapses to extremes; but some people still find the continental side of Britain, that gave us -26C in January 1982 and 37C (rounded) on various occasions- a remote-from-the-sea range of 63C- exciting.

Bertie, Itchen Valley.
Retire while you can still press the 'retire now' button.
TimS
  • TimS
  • Advanced Member
11 December 2015 20:20:26
Actually that last post made me think: a coastal British temperature would be an interesting index. It would be a kind of proxy for SST plus airmass.

Let's say we'd use readings from these 12:

- Penzance
- Pembrey sands
- Aberystwyth
- Blackpool airport
- Oban
- Skye
- Aberdeen
- Newcastle
- Great Yarmouth
- Manston
- Eastbourne
- St Catherine's head

Brockley, South East London 30m asl
Bertwhistle
11 December 2015 22:14:54

Actually that last post made me think: a coastal British temperature would be an interesting index. It would be a kind of proxy for SST plus airmass.

Let's say we'd use readings from these 12:

- Penzance
- Pembrey sands
- Aberystwyth
- Blackpool airport
- Oban
- Skye
- Aberdeen
- Newcastle
- Great Yarmouth
- Manston
- Eastbourne
- St Catherine's head

Originally Posted by: TimS 


It's a new idea- if it were the Royal Society in the 17th C or the BMA today, you wouldn't have a chance unless you were already an accredited and published uno, but on this site- well, you could put it forward with some confidence that it would be considered.


You might have to concede to a smaller number of stations to keep things robustly in line with the 'continental' 3; but what an idea! I'm in with you. Choose the key representative stations first- maybe 4 will be needed - maybe more but not all... surely more than 3 to represent the extensive coastal differences?


How exciting!

Bertie, Itchen Valley.
Retire while you can still press the 'retire now' button.
lanky
12 December 2015 13:48:27


 


Manley's temperature register related to an area at the time thought to be representative of England without its singular location towards the sea, thus forming an extension of the European continent which, of course, doesn't work for us (as we find out with frequent disappointment at the height of summer and depth of winter each year).


The UK temperature, as explained on this thread, is more representative of our islands, but the CET is maintained (albeit with different 'inland' locations)  not only because it provides the first great non-local, prolonged record (using a variety of secondary sources dating back to the late 17th Century- a century before Gilbert White) but also because there is a degree of historical respect for such endeavours whose early contribution to our mapping of the broader-than-my-area weather and climate would be lost.


Not that it should be considered merely a museum piece- we applaud all sorts of records on here, from time lapses to extremes; but some people still find the continental side of Britain, that gave us -26C in January 1982 and 37C (rounded) on various occasions- a remote-from-the-sea range of 63C- exciting.


Originally Posted by: Bertwhistle 


Leaving aside the absolute hottest and coldest days in the whole UK ever that you mentioned above, it is interesting to take a look at the month by month mean CET figures for each month of the year and split out the highest and lowest values for each month over the history since 1659


In theory, this should after 357 years give us a feel for what is the theoretical range of annual CET averages it is possible to get in the CET region.


The table below shows that for most months of the year the range of CET averages is about 6-8C



 

Martin
Richmond, Surrey
Bertwhistle
12 December 2015 16:34:12


 


Leaving aside the absolute hottest and coldest days in the whole UK ever that you mentioned above, it is interesting to take a look at the month by month mean CET figures for each month of the year and split out the highest and lowest values for each month over the history since 1659


In theory, this should after 357 years give us a feel for what is the theoretical range of annual CET averages it is possible to get in the CET region.


The table below shows that for most months of the year the range of CET averages is about 6-8C



 


Originally Posted by: lanky 


That's an interesting post; interesting also that the range peaks in the winter months and is lowest July-Sep; all 3 months of which would have a lower range still had it not been for 2006 and (in the case of August) 1995- both recent years (relative to the whole series). If you could graph this it would make a decent curve. On the other hand, if it hadn't been for 2007 and 2011, April wouldn't fit the pattern.


Because every time the record falls, the range changes, I'm not sure about the 'theoretical range...it is possible to get' bit. However, it would be interesting to see a running range (perhaps every-I don't know, 30 years?) and se how that has changed for each month. I wonder how long that would take to work out?


Good post-thanks.


Bertie

Bertie, Itchen Valley.
Retire while you can still press the 'retire now' button.
AIMSIR
12 December 2015 16:42:56


why is the Cet - the central England temperature - based for the month for  average temperatures in the Midlands


doesnt make sense if a warm average temp for the month is recorded in the Midlands for say Dec- other parts of the U.K. might have had a very different month 


 


Originally Posted by: sriram 

I suppose it's an attempt at standardisation?.

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