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David M Porter
21 January 2016 16:50:59


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2016012112/gfsnh-0-228.png?12


 


At least we have high pressure over the pole, which may lead to something in Feb


Until then, patience is required, but we should be used to that!


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


Good things come to those whom are patient.


At least that's what my folks always told me when I was a kid!


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Fothergill
21 January 2016 17:20:58

Very wet on the 12z GFS, back to flooding soon at this rate.


Chunky Pea
21 January 2016 17:21:29


 


Well, the 80s and 90s saw many an easterly - deep cold, none of this "will it snow or not" rubbish. Yes, SSWs were involved with some (but not all) of these events... there's more to it than that though, as we've not had a deep cold easterly for 19 years.


Put it another way, SSWs are not the be all and end all. However, they do have the potential to "shake things up" synoptically and as such it's no wonder people will look out for them!


Originally Posted by: Retron 


 


I agree totally with this. Living in a part of the world where true easterlies are vital for some intense dryness and breathtaking cold in winter and intense warmth and proper deep blue sky sunshine (none of the pale, bleached blue/white watered down maritime dung ) in summer, I know my easterlies and have become obsessively fussy about them. I would class the last true winter easterly here being that which occurred in early Jan '08, when a brief incursion of continental winds extended as far as Ireland courtesy of proper continental high centered over Finland/east Russia. Unfortunately, it didn't stick around for no more than a couple of days but I remember the marked difference in 'feel' and look to the weather while it was around. Low humidity, violet blue skies and an invigorating cold. Only got down to - 7.0c here locally at its lowest point but considering that this occurred despite a good stiff wind, it was impressive.  There was a brief snowy breakdown once the Atlantic pushed (all too soon) back in. 


 



(surface analysis from January 3rd, 2008, C/O DWD)


 


IMO, I would not class any spell which occurred during the winter of 09/10 for example as being of the true easterly type. Plenty of polar/arctic maritime air 'returning' as easterlies at times but never at any stage what I would class as true continental ones. I also think the points that Brian Gaze and others have brought up about the deindustiralsation of the eastern block region and the lowering frequency of proper continental influences on this side of the world are very interesting.


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
warrenb
21 January 2016 17:22:48
Funnily BBC just released a video saying we won't get a repeat of December, and the GFS has just done a repeat of December.
Quantum
21 January 2016 17:37:50

We won't get a repeat of December because it is projected we will be north of the jet. Once we get past the initial burst of SWerlies this sort of thing becomes quite common.


Netweather GFS Image


Generally a much drier and colder pattern than december, if a pattern that none of us truly want. Although word on the street is that the mountain trolls  are returning and the people on the other place seem pretty sure its going to herald a cold february. 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Dasaint76
21 January 2016 17:50:57


We won't get a repeat of December because it is projected we will be north of the jet. Once we get past the initial burst of SWerlies this sort of thing becomes quite common.


Netweather GFS Image


Generally a much drier and colder pattern than december, if a pattern that none of us truly want. Although word on the street is that the mountain trolls  are returning and the people on the other place seem pretty sure its going to herald a cold february. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


 


Well with the jet looking like it may  possibly settle again to our South.....it will then be all too play for within a couple of weeks

some faraway beach
21 January 2016 17:53:29

Funnily BBC just released a video saying we won't get a repeat of December, and the GFS has just done a repeat of December.

Originally Posted by: warrenb 


Maybe not. Lazy Wind has already posted a few GFS charts which don't look like December. 


I mean, December to me was characterized by air drawn from the tropics, while even as soon as 156 hrs GFS is showing a high in the Atlantic to cut that off that sort of thing. 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=156&mode=0


Single-digit maxes everywhere from that westerly imo.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Quantum
21 January 2016 17:56:21

Perturbation 7



This isn't entirely frivolous; if things like this exist on the ensembles then they can come off. Look at the difference between the E7 chart and the OP at 72 hours:



A slightly more northerly slant on the jet has a big impact down the line. And this difference is nothing compared to what we could get at 72 hours. Have patience; great charts more often than not suddenly appear at the 168hr to 192hr without warning. 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Bertwhistle
21 January 2016 18:03:09

http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/chart.aspx?chart=/charts/gfs/12_210_mslp850.png?cb=812


Look at the serious cold getting right down the E US coast, into Carolina, Georgia, not quite making it to Florida.


Bertie, Itchen Valley.
Retire while you can still press the 'retire now' button.
Bertwhistle
21 January 2016 18:05:13


Perturbation 7



This isn't entirely frivolous; if things like this exist on the ensembles then they can come off. Look at the difference between the E7 chart and the OP at 72 hours:



A slightly more northerly slant on the jet has a big impact down the line. And this difference is nothing compared to what we could get at 72 hours. Have patience; great charts more often than not suddenly appear at the 168hr to 192hr without warning. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


TBH that comparison is a reflection of the reduced scatter at a short time frame, despite the coincidental shape of the Euro. Love the top chart, however; who wouldn't?


Bertie, Itchen Valley.
Retire while you can still press the 'retire now' button.
Retron
21 January 2016 18:07:58


Perturbation 7


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Now that's an easterly blast worthy of the pre 1997 days! -12C or lower at 850 across the majority of the UK, -18C 850s clipping Kent, a sharply-defined upper cold pool to add instability and a continental feed for a few days. There would be no worries about marginality there, it'd just be a case of how much snow falls.


This sort of thing has been shown several times this winter but thus far hasn't had more than a 10% or so chance of coming off. Nonetheless it's nice to see and as you say is a possibility - just a very low one at present.


 


 


Leysdown, north Kent
Bertwhistle
21 January 2016 18:29:07

Look at this!


http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/chart.aspx?chart=/charts/gefs/gefsens850london0.png?cb=544


Interestingly, pert 7 mimics the operational (look at the rectilinear graph trough) shape; and the control, with a bot of a lag.


Bertie, Itchen Valley.
Retire while you can still press the 'retire now' button.
Whether Idle
21 January 2016 18:52:26

An incredible chart from the ECM at day 9.  Look at the depth of the cold blasting east of Canada, even -8 uppers make it to Scotland. 


Brrr  and ** for the Highlands, meanwhile Tm air tries nosing into the far SW.



Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Nordic Snowman
21 January 2016 18:57:37


An incredible chart from the ECM at day 9.  Look at the depth of the cold blasting east of Canada, even -8 uppers make it to Scotland. 


Brrr  and ** for the Highlands, meanwhile Tm air tries nosing into the far SW.



Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 


Certainly some heavy snowfalls for the hills in the N and especially in Scotland - if that were to verify.


Bjorli, Norway

Website 
pdiddy
21 January 2016 18:58:36

ECM 12z or the "Twilight Zonal"


Quantum
21 January 2016 19:01:27

I question how stable this pattern is, all it would take is a stray warm sector and then all that really warm air would get pushed northwards and the amplification it could cause would be pretty impressive. 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
21 January 2016 19:10:24

The dominant GEFS cluster at 372 hours is a north Atlantic ridge.



 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
21 January 2016 19:20:35

Quick look at the state of the tropospheric polar vortex; I know the stratospheric one has received alot of attention. However ultimately even though the S may be easier to predict for a longer range; its the T which affects us.


So we start here:



We start with a rather small polar vortex centred over the Baffin bay and Canadian archipelago; actually its most favored spot. While fairly disjointed with lobes extending into the lower latitudes it is stronger than of late.



Significant weakening by 144 hours, the polar voertex is completely split with one bit in the hudson (unusually far south) and the other bit in southern siberia; I'm actually having difficulty telling which one is the primary vortex here.



A truly bizare picture by 192 hours. There are still two polar vortexes, one in the southern Baffin and the other of the eastern coast of Russia. The arctic itself has a clockwise circulation. And although the UK is under the rule of zonality; this is not due to a strong polar vortex but due to its unusual position on the other side of the Atlantic. Here we combine a -ve AO and a +ve NAO which is a pattern which has become all too common in previous years. Very unfortunate.



The polar vortex is still split but has strengthened somewhat, the proximity of the polar vortex in southern Greenland is doing us no favours. 


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Brian Gaze
21 January 2016 19:30:02

GFS12z 10hPa charts were interesting:



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
forestedge
21 January 2016 19:39:29


It would seem some people have very short memories indeed! Last winter was a cold winter, and for those up north it was often a snowy one too - especially towards the northwest. It was so cold that it left the seas to the west of Scotland & Ireland significantly below average which in turn left for a cooler summer.


for those needing a refresh..,


 


http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/summaries


Originally Posted by: picturesareme 


My memory is the last two winters (Dec/Jan/Feb) have not been at all cold, especially in the south. UK mean temp anomalies for the last 3 winters in the met office climate summaries referred to are:


2014/15..........+0.2c


2013/14....... +1.5c


2012/13........-0.4c


 


Roger
Ashurst Bridge (New Forest)
9m ASL
https://www.newforestweather.co.uk 
Snow Hoper
21 January 2016 20:18:33


 


My memory is the last two winters (Dec/Jan/Feb) have not been at all cold, especially in the south. UK mean temp anomalies for the last 3 winters in the met office climate summaries referred to are:


2014/15..........+0.2c


2013/14....... +1.5c


2012/13........-0.4c


 


Originally Posted by: forestedge 


Indeed the last 2 winters have been absolute crap!


Kinda reminds me of the period during the 80's when, as a young lad, it felt like someone had turned the snow tap off. 87/88 then 88/89 although sypnotically not the same, the struggle to obtain proper cold weather is there. Had to wait until 91 to get anything decent again.


Going to war over religion is like killing each other to see who has the better imaginary friend.


Home : Thorndon, Suffolk.
Whether Idle
21 January 2016 20:45:32

Copied over from NW as I know Ian has a resurgent interest in all things stratospheric, and I know Jive Buddy is a long-time admirer.


  The last sentence makes a practical lrf  for February based on  the detail that goes before it.


Tamara    12,604



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The final whites of the eyes of the resurgent vortex are now fully in focus of NWP modelling, ahead of eventual programmed momentum transport from Greenland to Siberia after this inauspicious end period of January to start of February timeframe.


Indian Ocean tropical signal is creating another 'noise response', such as it did in December ,over the well fused together ocean/atmosphere Nino base state. The reduced tendency in atmospheric angular momentum from the heady values of recently is temporarily scrubbing some of the massive surfeit of westerly wind anomalies across the Pacific and creating a very pseudo and transient Nina-like synoptic response.


Despite total budget AAM remaining high


gltotaam.sig.90day.gif


Only a very minor subtle shift of jet energy northwards across the US, but magnified greater by the interim strong vortex across Greenland to provide the very uninspiring flat westerly pattern downstream across the Atlantic of the next 10 days or so.  


As amplification starts to occur upstream in the Pacific, the net longwave tendency downstream is to retract the heights to our south and over Europe westwards into the Atlantic, and, with recent negative tendency in frictional torques as a manifestation of suppression of  relative AAM tendency, this has the effect of beefing up the Azores High.


This process is now well advertised in the 8 to 10 day modelling period.


Frictional torques have now bottomed out, and starting to trend up in recognition of the continuing low frequency Nino signal in the Pacific. This sets the floor limit for relative angular momentum before rising once again


gltauf.90day.gifgltend.sig.90day.gif


At the same time, the MJO is set to continue its eastwards movement through the Maritimes and then onwards to the Pacific during the course of the first half of February


ECMF_phase_51m_small.gifEMON_phase_MANOM_51m_small.gif.


 


We should be mindful that modelling of this activity beyond a few days will be unreliable, and likely in that respect that progress will be underestimated. This is especially as MJO related activity is usually increasingly active approaching the later winter and then early Spring periods. With displacement and considerable perturbment likely of the stratospheric vortex during the very first part of February, and another round of soaring angular momentum as the MJO arrives at Phases 5 and 6, with the tropical signal increasingly gaining amplitude, then increasing eastward and northward progress of poleward rossby wave activity arrives in the Atlantic as the signal engages the Pacific as it did during this month and associated cold spell.


Nino Region 1.2 (eastern region) continues to cool and assist the evolvement of a traditional later winter Nino cold pattern. With the vortex paying a price for its unwelcome re-staged party gate-crash of our winter, the scene is set for an increasingly amplified Atlantic profile leading to greater and greater blocking potential particularly later in the month. Both the long-wave pattern and Nino forcing look much better accorded to stronger and more defined heights over the NE Atlantic, southern Greenland and Iceland as the month progresses. Better than those seen this month, and with a stronger and more east based NAO profile


It looks good for steadily increasing polar vectors through NW, N and NE through the progress of the month - beginning with polar maritime incursions in the earliest part of the month and becoming progressively colder from there:)






Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
The Beast from the East
21 January 2016 20:52:51
You can always rely on Jam Tamara to keep the spirits up. ECM short ens dont have any cold members
"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
picturesareme
21 January 2016 21:05:22


 


My memory is the last two winters (Dec/Jan/Feb) have not been at all cold, especially in the south. UK mean temp anomalies for the last 3 winters in the met office climate summaries referred to are:


2014/15..........+0.2c


2013/14....... +1.5c


2012/13........-0.4c


 


Originally Posted by: forestedge 


i left a link go read it please... I'm going to sit here and argue the toss with people who are only comparing it to their back garden... as I was responding originally to the statement that it was the coldest spell in 3 years not the bleeding winter!! 


But for those who can't be bothered to go and read...


last January CET was 0.1C above average last February was -0.1C below average. 😁

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