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Gooner
22 January 2016 16:51:22

Talk about stuck in a rut. On the GFS, from T +90 there is little change right through to the end of the "reliable".

Originally Posted by: Phil G 


It is at the minute ................patience is key


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
22 January 2016 16:53:18


Amazing video from the Beeb/Meto for the rest of winter and early spring.


Seems many signals point to cold.


https://t.co/kSWrETx6Ko


 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


Excellent video , picking up on his words carefully it could be the latter part of Feb and much of March that could deliver


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


SJV
22 January 2016 17:15:36


 


Very interesting, thanks for posting!


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


I second that  Really easy to understand and a Godsend for those of us without a firm grasp on these terms! 


I must say the Beeb have got some very informative forecasts online 

doctormog
22 January 2016 17:25:07


 


I second that  Really easy to understand and a Godsend for those of us without a firm grasp on these terms! 


I must say the Beeb have got some very informative forecasts online 


Originally Posted by: SJV 


Sorry for continuing off topic but that really was an excellent forecast or discussion/outlook. Easy to understand, clear, informative and highlighting the risks without making any unverifiable claims. Excellent work. 


Retron
22 January 2016 17:47:14

The 12z GEFS screams "zonal" to me, more so than for ages - just look at all that sine wave action!


http://www.meteociel.fr/cartes_obs/gens_display.php?x=306&y=141&run=12&ville=Londres&runpara=0&type=0&ext=1


No jam tomorrow on that run, that's for sure.


 


Leysdown, north Kent
Bertwhistle
22 January 2016 17:55:18


Amazing video from the Beeb/Meto for the rest of winter and early spring.


Seems many signals point to cold.


https://t.co/kSWrETx6Ko


 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


Thanks Ally Pally- a lucid cross-referencing of all the factors AND the potential for future developments.



Bertie, Itchen Valley.
Retire while you can still press the 'retire now' button.
Nordic Snowman
22 January 2016 18:00:34


The 12z GEFS screams "zonal" to me, more so than for ages - just look at all that sine wave action!


http://www.meteociel.fr/cartes_obs/gens_display.php?x=306&y=141&run=12&ville=Londres&runpara=0&type=0&ext=1


No jam tomorrow on that run, that's for sure.


 


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Indeed. Given the unsettled weather which is now most likely, details are best kept vague as exact conditions will be difficult for specific days (beyond day 3) as the models struggle to project the timing/speed of the systems with any real accuracy. Looking through the PS, there are some noteworthy storms in the offering too.... for the UK and for me.


Consolation: At least there is actual weather.... which for me, beats boring zzzzzzzzzz H.P


Bjorli, Norway

Website 
LeedsLad123
22 January 2016 18:08:22


 


Indeed. Given the unsettled weather which is now most likely, details are best kept vague as exact conditions will be difficult for specific days (beyond day 3) as the models struggle to project the timing/speed of the systems with any real accuracy. Looking through the PS, there are some noteworthy storms in the offering too.... for the UK and for me.


Consolation: At least there is actual weather.... which for me, beats boring zzzzzzzzzz H.P


Originally Posted by: Nordic Snowman 


Not for me.. we had enough unsettled weather in December to last a lifetime - with a still sodden ground as proof. An extended period of high pressure with light winds and sunshine would be perfect right about now. The outlook 8s actually very depressing.


Whitkirk, Leeds - 85m ASL.
Brian Gaze
22 January 2016 18:11:09

My take on the GEFS12z is a 'zonal Bartlett' setup. About as bad as it gets from a personal point of view. We don't get the weather I like at this time of the year - cold and snow - and we don't get wet and stormy conditions in the south which at least have the virtue of generating a lot of site traffic for me. A 'zonal Bartlett' is the absolute pits! 



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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Hippydave
22 January 2016 18:47:06

Not the most exciting 12z GFS run


I've been trawling through the ens postage stamps for a couple of days now and there is at least still a tendency for the core of the HP to move slightly Westwards, allowing some ridging North in the Atlantic and the potential for short cooler spells. 


I'm hoping this trend is amplified when we get closer and we get a more stable ridge/block setting up, although that's very much a hopecast and not anything that's shown bar the odd outlier.


Further out in deep FI and there are still a small number of members that are close to an Easterly, with HP setting up over Scandi once the PV lobe that relocates there earlier in the run has dwindled/moved off. It's not an implausible long term solution imo but as ever very unlikely to verify and subject to being washed away if the near/medium term zonality proves more dominant.


Being vaguely glass half full I don't think we're in for 4-5 weeks of unrelenting zonal dross but will freely admit I may be looking at the models through cold tinted glasses


Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Gandalf The White
22 January 2016 20:03:11


My take on the GEFS12z is a 'zonal Bartlett' setup. About as bad as it gets from a personal point of view. We don't get the weather I like at this time of the year - cold and snow - and we don't get wet and stormy conditions in the south which at least have the virtue of generating a lot of site traffic for me. A 'zonal Bartlett' is the absolute pits! 


 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Agreed Brian, a period of zonal Bartlett has been on the cards for several days now.  There is some hope towards the end of the ECM 12z of pressure dropping over the British Isles and high pressure retreating a little. Let's hope it's the start of a trend.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


White Meadows
22 January 2016 20:24:56


 


I second that  Really easy to understand and a Godsend for those of us without a firm grasp on these terms! 


I must say the Beeb have got some very informative forecasts online 


Originally Posted by: SJV 

 


Indeed, no nonsense or deliberate techno jargon in there. Nice, clean and clutter free πŸ™‚πŸ™‚

Stormchaser
22 January 2016 20:35:33

I bring fairly straightforward advice this evening;


Ignore the GFS beyond around day 7, as it has the wrong manifestation of tropical forcing which causes the amplification and southward dig of troughs driven by the stratosphere to end up in the mid-Atlantic when it should in fact be across Europe.


It seems based on its performance from mid-Dec to so far in Jan that the model is over-reacting to the anomalous warmth in the Indian Ocean. The result is a sort of 'False La Nina' signal in the model. What the model is showing us represents something like what would happen if there was no strong El Nino event currently in place.


I know this sounds overly bold, but I have been in a lot of discussions with expert minds in the field and these deductions are strongly supported. There won't be enough eggs to go around if these deductions prove incorrect!


 


As far as can be told, ECM seems not to be having such issues. The ensembles display a good appetite for gradually lowering heights across Europe from around day 7 with the jet stream easing south, and the 12z op run shows this nicely. In reality there will probably be a more complex evolution in which we have to put up with some residual low heights across Canada causing a hiccup or two before they get sorted out by the tropical forcing from the El Nino and allow a decent ridge to build toward Greenland/Iceland and take up residence to our NW. At that point the dive south in the jet happens quite suddenly and the game is very much on. This may be achieved as early as in the first week of Feb, but equally could take until the middle of the month.


This outlook is based quite heavily on research carried out by various mets over the past year or two and, as such, has to be considered experimental, with the usual caveats. Yet it has to be said that the research teams will be left scratching their heads and totally unsure where to go next if the reality doesn't turn out to be in keeping with the general theme that I have outlined. So fingers crossed it verifies well, not just for the cold and snow it brings great potential for, but for the sake of progress in meteorological research! 


 


Oh and I forgot to mention where the potential SSW comes in... it's actually a complication of sorts.


You see, the warming that goes on in the model output out to around day 12 is what's expected to work alongside the tropical forcing to help get the Euro trough in place with ridges/blocking to the W/NW of the UK. The reason is simple enough; the strat. vortex is displaced to a location that very nearly aligns with the expected surface pattern:



I've posted the NW version as it shows the heights as well, something that wouldn't go amiss in the TWO charts perhaps Brian? Pretty please 


The full-on SSW that GFS keeps showing is more about taking the vortex down once and for all. If it does turn out to be as strong as the 12z shows for example (see below), and propagates down to the surface (which is looking quite likely), the already troubled vortex won't be able to put up much of a fight.


Netweather GFS Image


Potentially we are looking at a large displacement that produces favourable results thanks to the tropical forcing setup (along with help from factors such as Arctic sea ice distribution as well, for that matter) followed by very extensive blocking later in Feb in response to a SSW - but that is the best case scenario, in which the SSW not only occurs but manages to split the vortex rather than just displace it again. Due to the location, another big displacement would probably do more harm than good as the vortex would end up back nearer Canada. There's your worst case scenario!


 


Phew. That was a big edit!


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Keep Calm and Forecast On
White Meadows
22 January 2016 20:41:28
I can't remember such a time in late Jan when so much pressure/ focus was on an expected severe February easterly.

Of course everyone snow starved & disappointed reaches this time of year with high hopes but I genuinely can't see a pattern switch for weeks.

No matter what the Beeb release with historical education videos, I seriously won't be raising an eyebrow until their forecasts, along with aligned model output arises.
TimS
  • TimS
  • Advanced Member
22 January 2016 21:02:07
Yet again, if only it were July. Lovely upper 20s for the South with low pollution levels followed by record breaking anticyclonic heat for over a week.
Brockley, South East London 30m asl
Gooner
22 January 2016 21:22:05

Yet again, if only it were July. Lovely upper 20s for the South with low pollution levels followed by record breaking anticyclonic heat for over a week.

Originally Posted by: TimS 


Keep dreaming then


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
22 January 2016 21:22:57


I bring fairly straightforward advice this evening;


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


A most encouraging WINO (Winter is NOT over) post. I've been at a loss to find the back of the wardrobe in the current model output, and this points the way.


Rob
In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.
Brian Gaze
22 January 2016 21:25:54


I've posted the NW version as it shows the heights as well, something that wouldn't go amiss in the TWO charts perhaps Brian? Pretty please 


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


Yes, I'll try and add in shortly along with 30hPa temps.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
picturesareme
22 January 2016 21:41:40


I bring fairly straightforward advice this evening;


Ignore the GFS beyond around day 7, as it has the wrong manifestation of tropical forcing which causes the amplification and southward dig of troughs driven by the stratosphere to end up in the mid-Atlantic when it should in fact be across Europe.


It seems based on its performance from mid-Dec to so far in Jan that the model is over-reacting to the anomalous warmth in the Indian Ocean. The result is a sort of 'False La Nina' signal in the model. What the model is showing us represents something like what would happen if there was no strong El Nino event currently in place.


I know this sounds overly bold, but I have been in a lot of discussions with expert minds in the field and these deductions are strongly supported. There won't be enough eggs to go around if these deductions prove incorrect!


 


As far as can be told, ECM seems not to be having such issues. The ensembles display a good appetite for gradually lowering heights across Europe from around day 7 with the jet stream easing south, and the 12z op run shows this nicely. In reality there will probably be a more complex evolution in which we have to put up with some residual low heights across Canada causing a hiccup or two before they get sorted out by the tropical forcing from the El Nino and allow a decent ridge to build toward Greenland/Iceland and take up residence to our NW. At that point the dive south in the jet happens quite suddenly and the game is very much on. This may be achieved as early as in the first week of Feb, but equally could take until the middle of the month.


This outlook is based quite heavily on research carried out by various mets over the past year or two and, as such, has to be considered experimental, with the usual caveats. Yet it has to be said that the research teams will be left scratching their heads and totally unsure where to go next if the reality doesn't turn out to be in keeping with the general theme that I have outlined. So fingers crossed it verifies well, not just for the cold and snow it brings great potential for, but for the sake of progress in meteorological research! 


 


Oh and I forgot to mention where the potential SSW comes in... it's actually a complication of sorts.


You see, the warming that goes on in the model output out to around day 12 is what's expected to work alongside the tropical forcing to help get the Euro trough in place with ridges/blocking to the W/NW of the UK. The reason is simple enough; the strat. vortex is displaced to a location that very nearly aligns with the expected surface pattern:



I've posted the NW version as it shows the heights as well, something that wouldn't go amiss in the TWO charts perhaps Brian? Pretty please 


The full-on SSW that GFS keeps showing is more about taking the vortex down once and for all. If it does turn out to be as strong as the 12z shows for example (see below), and propagates down to the surface (which is looking quite likely), the already troubled vortex won't be able to put up much of a fight.


Netweather GFS Image


Potentially we are looking at a large displacement that produces favourable results thanks to the tropical forcing setup (along with help from factors such as Arctic sea ice distribution as well, for that matter) followed by very extensive blocking later in Feb in response to a SSW - but that is the best case scenario, in which the SSW not only occurs but manages to split the vortex rather than just displace it again. Due to the location, another big displacement would probably do more harm than good as the vortex would end up back nearer Canada. There's😊😊 your worst case scenario!


 


Phew. That was a big edit!


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


great post πŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌπŸ˜ŠπŸ˜Š thank you 

David M Porter
22 January 2016 21:44:51


I bring fairly straightforward advice this evening;


Ignore the GFS beyond around day 7, as it has the wrong manifestation of tropical forcing which causes the amplification and southward dig of troughs driven by the stratosphere to end up in the mid-Atlantic when it should in fact be across Europe.


It seems based on its performance from mid-Dec to so far in Jan that the model is over-reacting to the anomalous warmth in the Indian Ocean. The result is a sort of 'False La Nina' signal in the model. What the model is showing us represents something like what would happen if there was no strong El Nino event currently in place.


I know this sounds overly bold, but I have been in a lot of discussions with expert minds in the field and these deductions are strongly supported. There won't be enough eggs to go around if these deductions prove incorrect!


 


As far as can be told, ECM seems not to be having such issues. The ensembles display a good appetite for gradually lowering heights across Europe from around day 7 with the jet stream easing south, and the 12z op run shows this nicely. In reality there will probably be a more complex evolution in which we have to put up with some residual low heights across Canada causing a hiccup or two before they get sorted out by the tropical forcing from the El Nino and allow a decent ridge to build toward Greenland/Iceland and take up residence to our NW. At that point the dive south in the jet happens quite suddenly and the game is very much on. This may be achieved as early as in the first week of Feb, but equally could take until the middle of the month.


This outlook is based quite heavily on research carried out by various mets over the past year or two and, as such, has to be considered experimental, with the usual caveats. Yet it has to be said that the research teams will be left scratching their heads and totally unsure where to go next if the reality doesn't turn out to be in keeping with the general theme that I have outlined. So fingers crossed it verifies well, not just for the cold and snow it brings great potential for, but for the sake of progress in meteorological research! 


 


Oh and I forgot to mention where the potential SSW comes in... it's actually a complication of sorts.


You see, the warming that goes on in the model output out to around day 12 is what's expected to work alongside the tropical forcing to help get the Euro trough in place with ridges/blocking to the W/NW of the UK. The reason is simple enough; the strat. vortex is displaced to a location that very nearly aligns with the expected surface pattern:



I've posted the NW version as it shows the heights as well, something that wouldn't go amiss in the TWO charts perhaps Brian? Pretty please 


The full-on SSW that GFS keeps showing is more about taking the vortex down once and for all. If it does turn out to be as strong as the 12z shows for example (see below), and propagates down to the surface (which is looking quite likely), the already troubled vortex won't be able to put up much of a fight.


Netweather GFS Image


Potentially we are looking at a large displacement that produces favourable results thanks to the tropical forcing setup (along with help from factors such as Arctic sea ice distribution as well, for that matter) followed by very extensive blocking later in Feb in response to a SSW - but that is the best case scenario, in which the SSW not only occurs but manages to split the vortex rather than just displace it again. Due to the location, another big displacement would probably do more harm than good as the vortex would end up back nearer Canada. There's your worst case scenario!


 


Phew. That was a big edit!


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


Great post James! Very well explained as always.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Dingle Rob
22 January 2016 22:11:23

James, it's very much appreciated that you explain things so plainly without having to resort to technobabble!

some faraway beach
22 January 2016 22:33:50
Excellent executive summary-style post from SC.

Remember though that the only reason it didn't appear to be technobabble was because he spared us the exact details of the discussions he's been enjoying with "expert minds in the field". I'm sure that the work and thinking which led to the conclusions described here were sumptuously jargonized and acronymed.
2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Saint Snow
22 January 2016 22:40:49

[sighs]


Just when I was thinking it was safe to stop scrutinising this thread & model output, a carrot is dangled by James (excellent read as always).


I think I'd rather have a winter of unremitting Bartlett than one that constantly teases.



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Phil G
22 January 2016 22:51:04
Quite late on in the run, but things seem to be further south, maybe repositioning as described by James post.

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn2402.gif 

squish
22 January 2016 23:03:40
I have to say, after that 06z GFS 'tease' of a day or two ago, the model output- in terms of potential for cold weather- is absolutely dire.

I can appreciate that for Scottish ski-centres, the fact that the atlantic looks set to smash right through the barn door and head straight to Moscow, (rather than skate over the top to Svalbard) , means that they may do quite well. But for the rest of us its wind and rain and mild muck, with the outside chance of a wintry shower every now and again. Which is all the recent cold spell amounted to, other than two glorious sunny days which already seem like a distant dream.

Yours, a usually optimistic, but now downright pessimistic squish πŸ™‚
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl

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