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Phil G
10 April 2020 08:35:52


 


According to The Times the UK is demanding a refund for 3 million antibody tests bought from China. 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


We can put that on the 'tab'!


Really, are we bothered chasing this up when there is the whole of our economy we need compensating on. That's as well as 8,000 deaths here and nearly 100,000 worldwide where they haven't even bothered showing a shred of remorse. Nothing from them at all that's what they really think of mankind. Their own people don't mean much to them either.


Just beggars belief!

Phil G
10 April 2020 08:38:16


 


Having listened to Burnham on Newsnight, I have changed my view on this. We all need to come out at the same time. If people in London see people in the countryside going to pubs and parks etc, they will get in their cars and drive to non locked down areas. 


 


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


That's what we saw in Italy, the migration south when the north tightened restrictions.

Chichesterweatherfan2
10 April 2020 08:50:24


 


 Completely agree. It's often said that being a Dr or nurse is a vocation rather than a job. IMO being a social care worker more often than not isn't. It can literally mean wiping sh1t off the floor and receiving abuse from patients with dementia. Often the people doing the work are paid the national minimum wage as you say. I have seen what it is like at first hand with the experience of my parents in their last few years.


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


 


totally agree, Brian.. during the Brexit debate I was banging on about the care sector and the staffing crisis which is now going to be 100 times worse...post CV19 - All I can hope for atleast is maybe a change of attitude by some in Govt....that care work may be low salaried but it is still skilled work, hugely needed and absolutely essential ..both my father and father in law died in care homes in the last few years...the level of care, kindness and compassion from the staff was exceptional...and I appreciate it is not like that in all care homes, sadly. 

Retron
10 April 2020 08:54:14


Really, are we bothered chasing this up when there is the whole of our economy we need compensating on. That's as well as 8,000 deaths here and nearly 100,000 worldwide where they haven't even bothered showing a shred of remorse. Nothing from them at all that's what they really think of mankind. Their own people don't mean much to them either.


Just beggars belief!


Originally Posted by: Phil G 


How much do you think we should pay the States, considering we infected New York and will have caused many deaths as a result? We've not shown any remorse for that either.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/09/coronavirus-entered-new-york-europe-not-asia-researchers-find/


"One study has found an early case of the virus in the city was in all likelihood indirectly transmitted by an individual who brought it across from Britain.


Geneticists who have traced the initial spread of coronavirus in New York - the US city so far worst hit by the disease - have discovered that the strain of the virus was “practically identical” to that already spreading through Europe."


...


"In one example linked to the UK, researchers at the Grossman School of Medicine traced the case of a Long Island resident with no travel history who tested positive for Covid-19 in early March .


They found that the Long Island patient’s viral genome correlated with that of a strain circulating in Britain. "


Leysdown, north Kent
Phil G
10 April 2020 09:02:31


 


How much do you think we should pay the States, considering we infected New York and will have caused many deaths as a result? We've not shown any remorse for that either.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/09/coronavirus-entered-new-york-europe-not-asia-researchers-find/


"One study has found an early case of the virus in the city was in all likelihood indirectly transmitted by an individual who brought it across from Britain.


Geneticists who have traced the initial spread of coronavirus in New York - the US city so far worst hit by the disease - have discovered that the strain of the virus was “practically identical” to that already spreading through Europe."


...


"In one example linked to the UK, researchers at the Grossman School of Medicine traced the case of a Long Island resident with no travel history who tested positive for Covid-19 in early March .


They found that the Long Island patient’s viral genome correlated with that of a strain circulating in Britain. "


Originally Posted by: Retron 


China is wholly responsible for this Darren. Don't like others try a blame game.


They knew about this and tried to cover it up. They created this nightmare and I have heard nothing from them, even sorry! No remorse nothing, what gets me is the acceptance of all this outside China.


The world should go after China hammer and tongs. There's no way we should suffer with this for decades financially, where they won't do too badly out of this. There's the bigger issue of the manslaughter of nearly 100,000 to date. 

Ally Pally Snowman
10 April 2020 09:07:01


 


China is wholly responsible for this Darren. Don't like others try a blame game.


They knew about this and tried to cover it up. They created this nightmare and I have heard nothing from them, even sorry! No remorse nothing, what gets me is the acceptance of all this outside China.


The world should go after China hammer and tongs. There's no way we should suffer with this for decades financially, where they won't do too badly out of this. There's the bigger issue of manslaughter of nearly 100,000 to date. 


Originally Posted by: Phil G 


 


What good would going after China actually do? Zero in the long run. We all have to work together now more than ever before. 


China should certainly ban its wet markets though which I'm sure they will.


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Retron
10 April 2020 09:09:18


What good would going after China actually do? Zero in the long run. We all have to work together now more than ever before. 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


Exactly right.


Getting all worked up over China (while ignoring that we've been spreading it like wildfire, as per that US/Tele story) won't achieve anything.



China should certainly ban its wet markets though which I'm sure they will.



I suspect they will officially ban them, but like cock-fighting, hare-coursing etc in this country it'll move underground.


Leysdown, north Kent
David M Porter
10 April 2020 09:13:20


 


China is wholly responsible for this Darren. Don't like others try a blame game.


They knew about this and tried to cover it up. They created this nightmare and I have heard nothing from them, even sorry! No remorse nothing, what gets me is the acceptance of all this outside China.


The world should go after China hammer and tongs. There's no way we should suffer with this for decades financially, where they won't do too badly out of this. There's the bigger issue of the manslaughter of nearly 100,000 to date. 


Originally Posted by: Phil G 


That is what makes it all the worse, Phil.


People in other countries, including ours, would have had much less reason to have been critical of the Chinese authorities had they done all they could to nullify the spread of the disease when it first became common knowledge there in December. It wasn't as if they weren't warned; at least one doctor tried to warn them about the seriousness of the disease at least three months ago before he sadly succumbed to the virus himself.


As was said in a previous thread the other day, the crucial period in terms of getting control of the disease in China was between mid-December and the end of January. Had the Chinese listened to their own medics back then and done all they could to mitigate against the spread of the disease during that period, it may have made a huge difference as far as the rest of the world was concerned.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
David M Porter
10 April 2020 09:20:32


 


 


What good would going after China actually do? Zero in the long run. We all have to work together now more than ever before. 


China should certainly ban its wet markets though which I'm sure they will.


 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


You're right that we all now have to work together to fight this disease; I don't in any way disagree on that point.


The issue I have is how much, if any, faith can we have in what the Chinese authorities say and do now in view of the way they behaved back at the start of this outbreak. Given what has happened, they are going to have to rebuild a hell of a lot of bridges with the rest of the world before most other people have start to have even a scintilla of faith in them again.


I think it is inevitable that at some point in the long run, China will face major reprecussions for this even if that doesn't happen anytime soon, especially for the initial cover-up. The rest of the world cannot afford to simply sit back and shrug its shoulders and say "It was just one of those things, no matter how many people died as a result".


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
10 April 2020 09:20:39


 


There are rather opaque suggestions in The Times that a small scale antibody testing survey has begun in the UK and the initial results from it back the modelling.


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


I understand Porton Down is acquiring samples from 500 people selected at random to test for antibodies


John p
10 April 2020 09:25:23

The police appear to have totally lost the plot


 




Camberley, Surrey
Phil G
10 April 2020 09:25:29


 


 


What good would going after China actually do? Zero in the long run. We all have to work together now more than ever before. 


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


If the world boycott's China's goods, have sanctions etc, close borders to them, that will hit them where it hurts. They will have so much stock they can't sell they will drown in it. Yes agree about working together now. The rest of the world can develop and build the things China produces.


China needs the rest of the world to survive as well. We need a response from them which truly helps out. They should not bite off the hand that feeds them. If the world is in recession too long, they get hit too!

Retron
10 April 2020 09:26:16

The Tele reports that government modelling suggests that 150,000 deaths will be caused by the lockdown and that the government has been surprised at people actually sticking to the rules. For those who have access, it's a rather eye-opening piece!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/04/09/boris-worried-lockdown-has-gone-far-can-end/



Other options are, now, being discussed. Perhaps adverts, politely telling us that our country needs us to work. (As one minister puts it: “somebody has to pay for the NHS”). Parents, too, might be urged to send their children to school after Easter – if they qualify. But it’s easy to see how employers, workers and parents have gone to ground. “Stay at home, Protect the NHS, Save lives” – a message honed by Isaac Levido, the Tory election campaign chief – has worked. All too well.

Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, had been working with the Prime Minister on the next step: how to stop the end of lockdown being seen as a question of “lives vs money”. As a former economic adviser, Hancock is certainly mindful of the money: a £200 billion deficit could mean another decade of austerity. But other figures – infections, mortality rates and deaths – are rightly holding the national attention. Phasing out the lockdown needs to be spoken about in terms of lives vs lives. Or, crudely, whether lockdown might end up costing more lives than the virus.

Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, has worried about this from the offset. In meetings he often stresses that a pandemic kills people directly, and indirectly. A smaller economy means a poorer society and less money for the NHS – eventually. But right now, he says, there will be parents avoiding the NHS, not vaccinating their children – so old diseases return. People who feel a lump now may not get it checked out. Cancer treatment is curtailed. Therapy is abandoned.

Work is being done to add it all up and produce a figure for “avoidable deaths” that could, in the long-term, be caused by lockdown. I’m told the early attempts have produced a figure of 150,000, far greater than those expected to die of Covid.


Leysdown, north Kent
Phil G
10 April 2020 09:28:45


 


You're right that we all now have to work together to fight this disease; I don't in any way disagree on that point.


The issue I have is how much, if any, faith can we have in what the Chinese authorities say and do now in view of the way they behaved back at the start of this outbreak. Given what has happened, they are going to have to rebuild a hell of a lot of bridges with the rest of the world before most other people have start to have even a scintilla of faith in them again.


I think it is inevitable that at some point in the long run, China will face major reprecussions for this even if that doesn't happen anytime soon, especially for the initial cover-up. The rest of the world cannot afford to simply sit back and shrug its shoulders and say "It was just one of those things, no matter how many people died as a result".


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


Too true David. I cannot stand this acceptance, even defending of China's behaviour. 

Sevendust
10 April 2020 09:31:15

Figures coming out of Belgium seem to be quite concerning. They may have altered recording methodology but I am not sure. Nearly 500 deaths yesterday 

speckledjim
10 April 2020 09:31:24


The police appear to have totally lost the plot


 




Originally Posted by: John p 


They're getting plenty of grief (and rightly so) for it on Twitter


Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
Phil G
10 April 2020 09:32:29


The Tele reports that government modelling suggests that 150,000 deaths will be caused by the lockdown and that the government has been surprised at people actually sticking to the rules. For those who have access, it's a rather eye-opening piece!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/04/09/boris-worried-lockdown-has-gone-far-can-end/



Other options are, now, being discussed. Perhaps adverts, politely telling us that our country needs us to work. (As one minister puts it: “somebody has to pay for the NHS”). Parents, too, might be urged to send their children to school after Easter – if they qualify. But it’s easy to see how employers, workers and parents have gone to ground. “Stay at home, Protect the NHS, Save lives” – a message honed by Isaac Levido, the Tory election campaign chief – has worked. All too well.

Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, had been working with the Prime Minister on the next step: how to stop the end of lockdown being seen as a question of “lives vs money”. As a former economic adviser, Hancock is certainly mindful of the money: a £200 billion deficit could mean another decade of austerity. But other figures – infections, mortality rates and deaths – are rightly holding the national attention. Phasing out the lockdown needs to be spoken about in terms of lives vs lives. Or, crudely, whether lockdown might end up costing more lives than the virus.

Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, has worried about this from the offset. In meetings he often stresses that a pandemic kills people directly, and indirectly. A smaller economy means a poorer society and less money for the NHS – eventually. But right now, he says, there will be parents avoiding the NHS, not vaccinating their children – so old diseases return. People who feel a lump now may not get it checked out. Cancer treatment is curtailed. Therapy is abandoned.

Work is being done to add it all up and produce a figure for “avoidable deaths” that could, in the long-term, be caused by lockdown. I’m told the early attempts have produced a figure of 150,000, far greater than those expected to die of Covid.


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Interesting piece Darren. Whatever the govt do, they can't win.

Heavy Weather 2013
10 April 2020 09:32:29
I see the Torygraph is pushing an end for lockdown.

Fraser Nelson Twitter

Could lockdown claim more lives than Covid in the long run? Ministers fear so, but only Boris can end the restrictions he created.

His article states that Boris is worried that Lockdown has gone too far. I assume he has been discussing this with Boris in ICU.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/04/09/boris-worried-lockdown-has-gone-far-can-end/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1586466176 

I think the Tory press are worrying how that people are waking up to the fact key workers and the NHS will need to be funded in a totally different way. They are worried about their millionaires.
Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
John p
10 April 2020 09:33:47


The Tele reports that government modelling suggests that 150,000 deaths will be caused by the lockdown and that the government has been surprised at people actually sticking to the rules. For those who have access, it's a rather eye-opening piece!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/04/09/boris-worried-lockdown-has-gone-far-can-end/



Other options are, now, being discussed. Perhaps adverts, politely telling us that our country needs us to work. (As one minister puts it: “somebody has to pay for the NHS”). Parents, too, might be urged to send their children to school after Easter – if they qualify. But it’s easy to see how employers, workers and parents have gone to ground. “Stay at home, Protect the NHS, Save lives” – a message honed by Isaac Levido, the Tory election campaign chief – has worked. All too well.

Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, had been working with the Prime Minister on the next step: how to stop the end of lockdown being seen as a question of “lives vs money”. As a former economic adviser, Hancock is certainly mindful of the money: a £200 billion deficit could mean another decade of austerity. But other figures – infections, mortality rates and deaths – are rightly holding the national attention. Phasing out the lockdown needs to be spoken about in terms of lives vs lives. Or, crudely, whether lockdown might end up costing more lives than the virus.

Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, has worried about this from the offset. In meetings he often stresses that a pandemic kills people directly, and indirectly. A smaller economy means a poorer society and less money for the NHS – eventually. But right now, he says, there will be parents avoiding the NHS, not vaccinating their children – so old diseases return. People who feel a lump now may not get it checked out. Cancer treatment is curtailed. Therapy is abandoned.

Work is being done to add it all up and produce a figure for “avoidable deaths” that could, in the long-term, be caused by lockdown. I’m told the early attempts have produced a figure of 150,000, far greater than those expected to die of Covid.


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Interesting piece, but it’s author is rabid right winger Fraser Nelson whose only interest is the economy.


Also don’t forget, these ‘models’ also predicted 400,000 deaths if no lockdown was applied.


Camberley, Surrey
Bugglesgate
10 April 2020 09:36:08


The police appear to have totally lost the plot


 




Originally Posted by: John p 


 


Yes, what the hell is "essential" ?   For the first time in 3 weeks I went shopping this morning (at the local shop for local people) 


I bought :-


Apples, mushrooms, oranges, parsnip.  Mars Bar, packet of crisps  and   Times newspaper (the latter 3 only becuase I was in the shop anyway)


I could pop a vitamin  pill  and eat some  oats I have at home and do away with the fruit and I don't need Mars bars and crisps  or Times - so arrest me 


Chris (It,its)
Between Newbury and Basingstoke
"When they are giving you their all, some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy banging your heart against some mad buggers wall"
Ally Pally Snowman
10 April 2020 09:40:27


 


If the world boycott's China's goods, have sanctions etc, close borders to them, that will hit them where it hurts. They will have so much stock they can't sell they will drown in it. Yes agree about working together now. The rest of the world can develop and build the things China produces.


China needs the rest of the world to survive as well. We need a response from them which truly helps out. They should not bite off the hand that feeds them. If the world is in recession too long, they get hit too!


Originally Posted by: Phil G 


I agree we should never ever rely on any country to make our PPE, ventilators,  vital medicine ever again. I just don't think actually punishing China would actually achieve much.


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Phil G
10 April 2020 09:43:45
From the BBC ticker:
"Russia has recorded its biggest daily increase in infections, with 1,786 new cases and 18 deaths, bringing the total to 94. Moscow mayor Sergei Sobyanin says the city is "at the foothills" of the disease, not the peak".

While they suggest things will get worse, IF TRUE quite surprised on these low rates so far for Russia bearing in mind there are a lot of world travellers here. Wonder what Putin's reaction will be when thousands of his countrymen eventually succumb to this.
Rob K
10 April 2020 09:46:01


 


They're getting plenty of grief (and rightly so) for it on Twitter


Originally Posted by: speckledjim 


Tweet updated a couple of minutes ago. Blaming an “overexuberant officer”! And say they are not monitoring what people buy  


https://twitter.com/cambridgecops/status/1248546787394293760?s=21


 


 


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
chelseagirl
10 April 2020 09:52:54


 


Tweet updated a couple of minutes ago. Blaming an “overexuberant officer”! And say they are not monitoring what people buy  


https://twitter.com/cambridgecops/status/1248546787394293760?s=21


 


 


Originally Posted by: Rob K 

No but plenty of others do.  Hubby out for shopping yesterday, and got challenged for buying Jelly Babies! They are the “go to” for hypos of which I have had a bit more than usual lately, and needed some more as a just in case measure rather than him having to call 999. I’m afraid his reply is not quotable. He hates shopping anyway and this was the last straw! 


The Fenlands of Cambridgeshire
Tim A
10 April 2020 09:53:10


 


 


Yes, the hell is "essential" ?   For the first time in 3 weeks I went shopping this morning (at the local shop for local people) 


I bought :-


Apples, mushrooms, oranges, parsnip.  Mars Bar, packet of crisps  and   Times newspaper (the latter 3 only becuase I was in the shop anyway)


I could pop a vitamin  pill  and eat some  oats I have at home and do away with the fruit and I don't need Mars bars and crisps  or Times - so arrest me 


Originally Posted by: Bugglesgate 


Agreed. If it's available to buy you should be able to buy it without consequences.  Otherwise it's a minefield and where do you draw the line as to what is essential?  The queue outside an Asda a few miles from me takes you past the garden plants section .  As long as they are for sale you can't blame people putting them in the basket. 


If the police have to challenge anyone it should be the shops but personally I would allow people to buy anything within a supermarket. 


 


Tim
NW Leeds
187m asl

 My PWS 

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