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xioni2
22 March 2020 22:09:15


 To be honest, the end-game in this will ultimately have to be herd immunity, either through slow spread of the virus or (preferably) mass vaccination.  Given there is probably another winter between now and mass-vaccination, I don't see the Asian countries not having another flare up in their population, you won't be able to get everyone. I think I read something on 1 infected person free-roaming indirectly infects 30,000 and that extrapolates.  It's going to be very hard to constantly get a lid on this until there is herd immunity and that's the brutal truth.


Originally Posted by: Tom Oxon 


We'll see, the Asian countries (including China) have been very successful so far, so they could well contain new flare ups too.


Btw, I found the account from the Times to be fascinating and gripping.


 

Heavy Weather 2013
22 March 2020 22:12:46


More from The Times about the government's massive U turn:


The meeting that will change British society for a generation took place on the evening of Thursday, March 12. That was when the strategic advisory group of experts (Sage in Whitehall parlance), the government’s committee of scientists and medics, gathered to examine modelling from experts at Imperial College London and other institutions.


The results were shattering. A week earlier, councils had been warned to expect about 100,000 deaths from Covid-19. Now Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, and Sir Patrick Vallance, the chief scientific adviser, realised the estimates were wrong.


“Unmitigated, the death number was 510,000,” a senior figure said. “Mitigated we were told it was going to be 250,000. Once you see a figure of take no further action and a quarter of a million people die, the question you ask is, ‘What action?’” Another insider said: “There was a collision between the science and reality.”


For two months the government had time to prepare, but Johnson’s instincts were to resist a life-changing crackdown. “There was a lot of talk about how this was just a bit of flu,” one senior Tory recalled.


Dominic Cummings, the prime minister’s senior aide, became convinced that Britain would be better able to resist a lethal second wave of the disease next winter if Whitty’s prediction that 60% to 80% of the population became infected was right and the UK developed “herd immunity”.


At a private engagement at the end of February, Cummings outlined the government’s strategy. Those present say it was “herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad”.


At the Sage meeting on March 12, a moment now dubbed the “Domoscene conversion”, Cummings changed his mind. In this “penny-drop moment”, he realised he had helped set a course for catastrophe. Until this point, the rise in British infections had been below the European average. Now they were above it and on course to emulate Italy, where the picture was bleak. A minister said: “Seeing what was happening in Italy was the galvanising force across government.”


By Friday, March 13, Cummings had become the most outspoken advocate of a tough crackdown. “Dominic himself had a conversion,” a senior Tory said. “He’s gone from ‘herd immunity and let the old people die’, to ‘let’s shut down the country and the economy.’”


Cummings had a “meeting of minds” with Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who wanted stronger action to prevent NHS hospitals being swamped. Department of Health officials had impressed on Hancock that the death rate in Wuhan province was 3.4% when the hospitals were overrun and 0.7% elsewhere in China.


Johnson had also been queasy about the previous original approach. “Boris hated the language of ‘herd immunity’ because it implied that it was OK for people to die,” a senior source said. “Matt hated the language because it implied we had given up. You’ve got to fight.”


The problem for the government was that at the moment herd immunity was being banished from policy, it had become the focus of publicity. That Wednesday, David Halpern of the Whitehall “nudge unit” put the phrase in the public domain. Two days later, Vallance repeated the idea on Radio 4. With Italy, France and Spain going into lockdown, the government’s critics accused Johnson of refusing to act because he wanted people to get ill.


Insiders say it was “very bumpy” that Friday. “The meetings were very messy,” said one source. But when Johnson gathered his key advisers in the cabinet room at 9.15am last Saturday there was unanimity. Whitty and Vallance explained that Britain had been four weeks behind Italy “and now we are closer”.


The two experts, together with Hancock and Cummings, all delivered to Johnson one message: “Now is the moment to act.” The prime minister agreed: “We must work around the clock and take all necessary measures.” One of those present said: “The mood in the room was astonishing. You could tell that something very significant had shifted.”


Whitty and Vallance began their own press conferences at the end of the week amid concern that some of Johnson’s pronouncements — including a claim that they could “turn the tide” within 12 weeks — were not grounded in evidence. “Some of the experts are appalled by some of his claims,” a Whitehall source said. A Tory aide said: “Boris looks haunted. It’s like when George W Bush came in thinking he was going to be the education-reforming president and had to deal with the war on terror.” Another senior Tory said: “Boris is shellshocked.”


Johnson, who is a civil libertarian at heart, spent the week resisting Cummings’s demands for a full-blown lockdown of London — banning inhabitants from travelling outside the city.


A senior Tory said: “Boris really doesn’t want to shut stuff down. He is more worried than most about the economic impact but also the social impact of locking people up in their homes for months. Fundamentally there is a Boris-Dom cleavage. First Boris bottled herd immunity. Now he’s bottling lockdown.”


However, many sources report that the Downing Street machine is fast running out of steam. “Everyone is working to capacity and is absolutely exhausted,” said one insider. “It’s utter chaos and there is no end in sight.”


Businesses phoning up to offer help say Downing Street seems “swamped”. One ventilator manufacturer claimed on Newsnight that the government had not put in any orders — though sources say 1,400 firms are offering to build them and by Friday morning eight companies who have never made a ventilator were turning them out.


Some in Downing Street are turning to drink. An aide joked on Thursday that they had run out of hand sanitiser and were “using the contents of a vodka miniature” instead. Others are recruiting old friends. Gabriel Milland, a former head of press to Michael Gove, was drafted into No 10 last week. Tom Shinner, the civil servant who did the most to prepare Britain for a no-deal Brexit, who left the government last year, has also been rehired.


Numerous sources say Gove has repeatedly sniped at Hancock. “There have been tensions over where responsibilities begin and end,” one observed. Some ministers are lobbying to see Gove take charge if Johnson is incapacitated with Covid-19 or if he takes paternity leave, though Sunak ranks higher in the cabinet rankings on the gov.uk website and the job is likely to be Raab’s, since he is officially “first secretary of state”.


But there are perils ahead. “Boris and his team are absolutely terrified because it will not be the NHS by end of this,” a Whitehall source said. “It will be the corona health service and will just be there to pump oxygen into patients.”


MPs speculate that there will be two big inquiries — an international one into the origins of the virus in China’s live animal “wet markets”; and a second into the government’s preparations and policy decisions. “If we end up like Italy in two weeks’ time and 30-year-old doctors are dropping dead, the government is going to be in big trouble,” a Labour MP said.


 


 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Thanks for posting this. What a fascinating read. It goes to show, everyone will have a finger to point at someone.


When Boris was Mayor people often said it was the people around him that were the decision makers, he wasn’t interested in detail and like to be the figure head. This is exactly how this reads to me. Except he is now PM. It sounds like there is a bit of a power struggle going on.


He is going to have to hope we don’t go the direction of Italy. I genuinely don’t believe he is up to the job. He has been extremely poor during these press conferences at times this week - more often than not shown up against the people around him.


To his base though, he can do no wrong.


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
Tom Oxon
22 March 2020 22:13:37


 


We'll see, the Asian countries (including China) have been very successful so far, so they could well contain new flare ups too.


Btw, I found the account from the Times to be fascinating and gripping.


 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


 


I hope you're right... although in that sunshine scenario we're never truly back to normal until mass vaccination (and I'm not even sure of the scale of that task, I assume you have to target certain population groups, can't see us vaccinating billions of people before winter 2021).


S Warwickshire countryside, c.375ft asl.
fairweather
22 March 2020 22:17:59


UK still not looking good on Burn-Murdoch's plot which is now updated for 22/03. 


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETvUun-WAAEd5w8?format=jpg&name=large


 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Given the variance in how they are attributing the deaths and other variables i think the curves are similar to a large extent with the exception of S.Korea and Japan. U.S looks a bit dodgy as line is more linear.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
xioni2
22 March 2020 22:18:58


 Thanks for posting this. What a fascinating read. It goes to show, everyone will have a finger to point at someone.


When Boris was Mayor people often said it was the people around him that were the decision makers, he wasn’t interested in detail and like to be the figure head. This is exactly how this reads to me. Except he is now PM. It sounds like there is a bit of a power struggle going on.


He is going to have to hope we don’t go the direction of Italy. I genuinely don’t believe he is up to the job. He has been extremely poor during these press conferences at times this week - more often than not shown up against the people around him.


To his base though, he can do no wrong.


Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


Agreed on all your points. Friends and foes alike say that Boris doesn't do a lot of detail and he delegates. He is also a libertarian and he believes in the UK being exceptional, so I am not surprised by his hesitation to take drastic measures quickly. Let's hope he is lucky again.

Gandalf The White
22 March 2020 22:20:11


Christ MERS is back in Saudi.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


As it's another Coronavirus I hope there's no way that MERS and SARS-Cov2 end up in the same people and borrow from each other.  Anyone know if that's a possibility?


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Bolty
22 March 2020 22:23:21


 


As it's another Coronavirus I hope there's no way that MERS and SARS-Cov2 end up in the same people and borrow from each other.  Anyone know if that's a possibility?


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Jesus, imagine a hybrid of them forming? All it takes is for a co-infection to take place. From what I'm aware MERS is much more lethal than COVID-19.


Edit: yes just checked. The mortality rate of MERS in on average 33%.


Scott
Blackrod, Lancashire (4 miles south of Chorley) at 156m asl.
My weather station 
fairweather
22 March 2020 22:24:39


More from The Times about the government's massive U turn:


The meeting that will change British society for a generation took place on the evening of Thursday, March 12. That was when the strategic advisory group of experts (Sage in Whitehall parlance), the government’s committee of scientists and medics, gathered to examine modelling from experts at Imperial College London and other institutions.


The results were shattering. A week earlier, councils had been warned to expect about 100,000 deaths from Covid-19. Now Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, and Sir Patrick Vallance, the chief scientific adviser, realised the estimates were wrong.


“Unmitigated, the death number was 510,000,” a senior figure said. “Mitigated we were told it was going to be 250,000. Once you see a figure of take no further action and a quarter of a million people die, the question you ask is, ‘What action?’” Another insider said: “There was a collision between the science and reality.”


For two months the government had time to prepare, but Johnson’s instincts were to resist a life-changing crackdown. “There was a lot of talk about how this was just a bit of flu,” one senior Tory recalled.


Dominic Cummings, the prime minister’s senior aide, became convinced that Britain would be better able to resist a lethal second wave of the disease next winter if Whitty’s prediction that 60% to 80% of the population became infected was right and the UK developed “herd immunity”.


At a private engagement at the end of February, Cummings outlined the government’s strategy. Those present say it was “herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad”.


At the Sage meeting on March 12, a moment now dubbed the “Domoscene conversion”, Cummings changed his mind. In this “penny-drop moment”, he realised he had helped set a course for catastrophe. Until this point, the rise in British infections had been below the European average. Now they were above it and on course to emulate Italy, where the picture was bleak. A minister said: “Seeing what was happening in Italy was the galvanising force across government.”


By Friday, March 13, Cummings had become the most outspoken advocate of a tough crackdown. “Dominic himself had a conversion,” a senior Tory said. “He’s gone from ‘herd immunity and let the old people die’, to ‘let’s shut down the country and the economy.’”


Cummings had a “meeting of minds” with Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who wanted stronger action to prevent NHS hospitals being swamped. Department of Health officials had impressed on Hancock that the death rate in Wuhan province was 3.4% when the hospitals were overrun and 0.7% elsewhere in China.


Johnson had also been queasy about the previous original approach. “Boris hated the language of ‘herd immunity’ because it implied that it was OK for people to die,” a senior source said. “Matt hated the language because it implied we had given up. You’ve got to fight.”


The problem for the government was that at the moment herd immunity was being banished from policy, it had become the focus of publicity. That Wednesday, David Halpern of the Whitehall “nudge unit” put the phrase in the public domain. Two days later, Vallance repeated the idea on Radio 4. With Italy, France and Spain going into lockdown, the government’s critics accused Johnson of refusing to act because he wanted people to get ill.


Insiders say it was “very bumpy” that Friday. “The meetings were very messy,” said one source. But when Johnson gathered his key advisers in the cabinet room at 9.15am last Saturday there was unanimity. Whitty and Vallance explained that Britain had been four weeks behind Italy “and now we are closer”.


The two experts, together with Hancock and Cummings, all delivered to Johnson one message: “Now is the moment to act.” The prime minister agreed: “We must work around the clock and take all necessary measures.” One of those present said: “The mood in the room was astonishing. You could tell that something very significant had shifted.”


Whitty and Vallance began their own press conferences at the end of the week amid concern that some of Johnson’s pronouncements — including a claim that they could “turn the tide” within 12 weeks — were not grounded in evidence. “Some of the experts are appalled by some of his claims,” a Whitehall source said. A Tory aide said: “Boris looks haunted. It’s like when George W Bush came in thinking he was going to be the education-reforming president and had to deal with the war on terror.” Another senior Tory said: “Boris is shellshocked.”


Johnson, who is a civil libertarian at heart, spent the week resisting Cummings’s demands for a full-blown lockdown of London — banning inhabitants from travelling outside the city.


A senior Tory said: “Boris really doesn’t want to shut stuff down. He is more worried than most about the economic impact but also the social impact of locking people up in their homes for months. Fundamentally there is a Boris-Dom cleavage. First Boris bottled herd immunity. Now he’s bottling lockdown.”


However, many sources report that the Downing Street machine is fast running out of steam. “Everyone is working to capacity and is absolutely exhausted,” said one insider. “It’s utter chaos and there is no end in sight.”


Businesses phoning up to offer help say Downing Street seems “swamped”. One ventilator manufacturer claimed on Newsnight that the government had not put in any orders — though sources say 1,400 firms are offering to build them and by Friday morning eight companies who have never made a ventilator were turning them out.


Some in Downing Street are turning to drink. An aide joked on Thursday that they had run out of hand sanitiser and were “using the contents of a vodka miniature” instead. Others are recruiting old friends. Gabriel Milland, a former head of press to Michael Gove, was drafted into No 10 last week. Tom Shinner, the civil servant who did the most to prepare Britain for a no-deal Brexit, who left the government last year, has also been rehired.


Numerous sources say Gove has repeatedly sniped at Hancock. “There have been tensions over where responsibilities begin and end,” one observed. Some ministers are lobbying to see Gove take charge if Johnson is incapacitated with Covid-19 or if he takes paternity leave, though Sunak ranks higher in the cabinet rankings on the gov.uk website and the job is likely to be Raab’s, since he is officially “first secretary of state”.


But there are perils ahead. “Boris and his team are absolutely terrified because it will not be the NHS by end of this,” a Whitehall source said. “It will be the corona health service and will just be there to pump oxygen into patients.”


MPs speculate that there will be two big inquiries — an international one into the origins of the virus in China’s live animal “wet markets”; and a second into the government’s preparations and policy decisions. “If we end up like Italy in two weeks’ time and 30-year-old doctors are dropping dead, the government is going to be in big trouble,” a Labour MP said.


 


 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Dominic Cummings has a lot to answer for and hopefully will be remembered for the ****** that he is.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
xioni2
22 March 2020 22:25:59


 Dominic Cummings has a lot to answer for and hopefully will be remembered for the ****** that he is.


Originally Posted by: fairweather 


At least he changed his mind quickly.

fairweather
22 March 2020 22:30:04


 


At least he changed his mind quickly.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Yes, even with his bravado he didn't want to be tagged with the "let them die" quote when it was looking like a quarter of a million!


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Brian Gaze
22 March 2020 22:30:48

Pence:


US has now done 254,000 tests. About 1 in 10 were positive.


45 minute test available by end March.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
John S2
22 March 2020 22:46:51
Do we think schools & colleges are likely to reopen and operate normally from early Sept 2020 ?
I suspect tighter lockdown rules for the general population are imminent, but surely this will substantially reduce herd immunity and therefore make any return to normality by September 2020 rather unlikely ?
Rob K
22 March 2020 23:02:26

Do we think schools & colleges are likely to reopen and operate normally from early Sept 2020 ?
I suspect tighter lockdown rules for the general population are imminent, but surely this will substantially reduce herd immunity and therefore make any return to normality by September 2020 rather unlikely ?

Originally Posted by: John S2 


I’d be surprised if schools can start in September. I think it would make far more sense to skip a year to be honest. 


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Tom Oxon
22 March 2020 23:03:10

Do we think schools & colleges are likely to reopen and operate normally from early Sept 2020 ?
I suspect tighter lockdown rules for the general population are imminent, but surely this will substantially reduce herd immunity and therefore make any return to normality by September 2020 rather unlikely ?

Originally Posted by: John S2 


Well this is the million pound question.  It's 5 and a bit months away, it would be nice to think we're out the worse by then but I'm no epidemiologist.  It's going to be tough on my 5-year-old staying in that long not seeing her friends, that's for sure.


S Warwickshire countryside, c.375ft asl.
Lionel Hutz
22 March 2020 23:16:59
I will go out on a limb and say that schools will probably be back in May. I'm certain that they'll be back in September.
Lionel Hutz
Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland
68m ASL



Bolty
22 March 2020 23:20:29

I will go out on a limb and say that schools will probably be back in May. I'm certain that they'll be back in September.

Originally Posted by: Lionel Hutz 


Yes I can't see it being as late as September. A devastating outbreak would have to occur for schools to be out for that long. I'm with you that I think we'll be looking at May, possibly June at the very latest.


Scott
Blackrod, Lancashire (4 miles south of Chorley) at 156m asl.
My weather station 
Gandalf The White
22 March 2020 23:53:07

I will go out on a limb and say that schools will probably be back in May. I'm certain that they'll be back in September.

Originally Posted by: Lionel Hutz 


I cannot see any way it could be May here in the U.K.  They were talking of the first wave not peaking before then; it's only five weeks away.


I suppose if things go really well then maybe some sort of return might be possible for those needing an outcome from their GCSEs and A-Levels. But if I was placing a bet I'd say the next school year is the probable outcome.  If things go badly even that might cause issues but we will at some point be back to the issue of trying to find the right balance. What we absolutely must avoid is lighting the blue touch paper on a massive flare up as we head into next winter.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


John S2
22 March 2020 23:56:07

I will go out on a limb and say that schools will probably be back in May. I'm certain that they'll be back in September.

Originally Posted by: Lionel Hutz 


Modelling shows that the outbreak will peak in about 10-14 weeks time, ie around June. I therefore cannot see how schools will be allowed to return to normal before the summer break. I rate the likelihood of full attendance being sanctioned in the education sector by early September about 40%. The reason for my pessimism is that new cases will probably still be occurring in September, and the authorities may be worried about a second wave occurring in the autumn. 

Heavy Weather 2013
23 March 2020 05:29:46
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51999539 

This article indicates that today will be a mess. I suspect schools will be swamped.

Another indication that a lot (not all) remain just as selfish.
Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
Retron
23 March 2020 05:43:39


I cannot see any way it could be May here in the U.K.  They were talking of the first wave not peaking before then; it's only five weeks away.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


It certainly won't be, although it's all academic anyway as it looks like the schools will be bustling today, with much glee amongst "key worker" parents on my school's unofficial group. People who are married to builders crowing that their kids have got a place and so on... no thought that maybe, just maybe, the builder should stay at home and babysit. Another example:


"no hun I’m a prison officer my husband works at (name redacted) golf club." Just plain selfish!


We still have at least two weeks of unfettered exponential growth in cases and deaths, albeit due to the crummy testing regime we'll never know the true extent of infections.


Leysdown, north Kent
Roger Parsons
23 March 2020 05:55:57


I cannot see any way it could be May here in the U.K.  They were talking of the first wave not peaking before then; it's only five weeks away.


I suppose if things go really well then maybe some sort of return might be possible for those needing an outcome from their GCSEs and A-Levels. But if I was placing a bet I'd say the next school year is the probable outcome.  If things go badly even that might cause issues but we will at some point be back to the issue of trying to find the right balance. What we absolutely must avoid is lighting the blue touch paper on a massive flare up as we head into next winter.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


This has been my unspoken thought for some time, Gandalf. If we imagine our present issues in severe winter conditions the prospect is very unattractive. 'Nuff said! Let's hope the current campaign now will crack the nut. Roger


 


RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
doctormog
23 March 2020 05:59:24

Darren surely in light of more recent updates many of these children will be turned away? I’m not sure about the details but only 340 spaces have been allocated here in Aberdeen for the children of key workers and our school will be closed completely (to all pupils and staff), barring a few minutes today for staff to be able to collect any essentials.

I genuinely don’t understand the thinking behind sending your kids to school in the current situation where other options are available.


Retron
23 March 2020 06:02:21


Darren surely in light of more recent updates many of these children will be turned away? I’m not sure about the details but only 340 spaces have been allocated here in Aberdeen for the children of key workers and our school will be closed completely (to all pupils and staff), barring a few minutes today for staff to be able to collect any essentials.


Originally Posted by: doctormog 


I'd love to think they would, but no - the plan is to admit them all. It's also the plan to have them all assemble in one of our two canteens first thing. All staff (200 ish, normally) are expected to be in today as well.


How I wish we had the Scots' sense at the moment!




I genuinely don’t understand the thinking behind sending your kids to school in the current situation where other options are available.



For whatever reason, some parents seem to find their children to be an annoyance - so are glad to be rid of them (hence the glee from some of the parents on the Facebook group).


 


Leysdown, north Kent
Gooner
23 March 2020 06:26:41

Why didn't anyone put the PM on the spot and ask " but schools aren't shut are they " ,I am really baffled by the whole thing


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


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