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The Beast from the East
01 April 2020 10:58:36

I have a feeling lockdown will be tightened after this weekend.

The 19C forecast on Sunday is asking for trouble as there are still some selfish people about

Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


In what way? We cant do what the frogs are doing make people print off paperwork, as we dont have the police to enforce it. Putting army on the streets of a very ethnic city like London, in hot weather, is asking for trouble


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
westv
01 April 2020 10:59:41


 


Our neighbour (45-year-old health freak) took 3 weeks to recover and has been left with permanent lung damage.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


At the risk of you biting my head off again, that doesn't detract from the fact that most people do recover. Not everybody though.


Most healthy people recover. Not everybody though.


Most people under 70. Not everybody though.


At least it will be mild!
The Beast from the East
01 April 2020 10:59:44


 


Our neighbour (45-year-old health freak) took 3 weeks to recover and has been left with permanent lung damage.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


Sorry to hear that, but still doesn't alter the fact that most people recover without consequence


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
westv
01 April 2020 11:01:44


 


In what way? We cant do what the frogs are doing make people print off paperwork,


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


I do wonder at the point of a piece of paper you print off yourself and then fill in yourself.


And what happens if you don't have a printer?


At least it will be mild!
Justin W
01 April 2020 11:02:23


 


At the risk of you biting my head off again, that doesn't detract from the fact that most people do recover. Not everybody though.


Most healthy people recover. Not everybody though.


Most people under 70. Not everybody though.


Originally Posted by: westv 


I think this is open to question until the epidemic has passed and we know how many have been left with long-term damage. I'm not denying that most people seem to make full recoveries but, at the moment, I don't think we can say that definitively. Anecdotally, a lot of people seem to be impaired by the virus after recovering.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Justin W
01 April 2020 11:03:23


 


Sorry to hear that, but still doesn't alter the fact that most people recover without consequence


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


 


At the moment, we don't know that.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
speckledjim
01 April 2020 11:03:42


 


How does this differ from what is currently happening?



Originally Posted by: Justin W 


It doesn’t but once we start to ease the lockdown they will need to still isolate 


Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
NickR
01 April 2020 11:05:56


 


 


At the moment, we don't know that.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


Beast specialises in evidence-free assertions.


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
Quantum
01 April 2020 11:05:58


 


Its a fact that nearly everyone who gets it recovers within a week


Boris is now back to normal


 


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


BS


It takes, on average, about 20 days from symptoms to death. Include the incubation period and it's about 25 days from infection to death. Recovery times (negitive tests and lack of symptoms happen roughly at the same time) takes just as long.


If I was infected today, I'd expect to die or recover by the 25th April


 


Boris Johnson developed symptoms on the 25th March.


If he was a very serious case he would not be due for ICU admission before about the 6th April


He would not be put on a ventilator until about the 9th April


And he would not be expected to die before the 15th April.


So no Boris has not 'recovered'. Even if his Fever and cough improve until this time next week you could not say with high probability that he wouldn't then take a turn for the worse. Most symptoms start to improve before the lung damage really kicks in.


 


 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Justin W
01 April 2020 11:07:20


 


It doesn’t but once we start to ease the lockdown they will need to still isolate 


Originally Posted by: speckledjim 


Then these people would have to stay isolated until vaccinated, surely? And I don't really see how you can ease a lockdown with up to 15 million people cut off from the rest of society. Is that workable? Don't know.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Maunder Minimum
01 April 2020 11:09:18


 


How does this differ from what is currently happening?



Originally Posted by: Justin W 


The complete lockdown. Here is a comment on The Times, which puts forward an alternative case to keeping everything locked down for as long as it takes:


"Yet more evidence, as if it was needed, that this government's policy is doomed to fail. Stephen Powis' comment that " ….and winter could come and those green shoots could turn out to be not the hopeful green shoots that they thought they might be” says it all. We are facing a lockdown not of 3 weeks, or 3 months, but of 9 months or more, because we've got no proper plan for how to address the true implications of this virus. All we've got is a government bleating on about the need to protect our NHS at all costs, when neither it nor the NHS has the faintest idea about the true threat level facing it, which of course means that no matter how well geared up the NHS might become, no-one can ever know whether it's sufficient. So we must carry on protecting it at all costs, regardless of what those costs might amount to and whether or not they can ever be afforded.


But we do know certain things. We know, for example, from what happened on the locked down Diamond Princess, that this virus doesn't appear to transmit at anything like the rate predicted by scientists. Less than 20% of the complement of passengers and crew on the vessel succumbed to the virus, yet according to our scientists it should have been 80%+. This experience seems to be born out by our limited testing of those self-isolating because of presumed Covid19 familial infection. Only 15% positive results in a population where expected results should, according to those scientists, be far far higher.


We also know that the mortality threat is age- and health-related. If you're very elderly, or have a compromised immune system, or are severely asthmatic, you're at significantly increased risk of dying if you catch the virus. If you're not, your risk, should you catch the virus, is most likely around 1 in 5,000 for the under 40's, rising to around 1 in 300 for those in their 60's, 1 in 125 for those in their 70's and 1 in 15 for those over 80. I use the expression "most likely" because best estimates are that actual cases of coronavirus exceed known cases by anything up to 10 times.


So those who are very elderly or have compromised immune systems are well advised to self-isolate, for as long as it takes to develop a vaccine. Whether they are all prepared to self-isolate for anything up to two years is a matter of choice for them - it isn't up to government to demand that people must do only what the government deems is good for them. They have the right to determine whether or not isolating themselves from the life they're accustomed to in order to prolong their safe existence is a price worth paying.


And for everyone else, we have to ask the question, is the government's prescription one that they should accept. We need to consider whether the social and economic consequences of the prescription are ones we can actually afford. The longer we are kept in lockdown, the greater the damage to our economy - fewer jobs, fewer businesses, massively hiked national debt that will need to be paid for by huge increases in taxation for a decade or more. The longer we are in lockdown, the greater the social cost - huge growth in domestic violence (we've already had at least 9 deaths in the past week directly attributable to the stresses caused by social distancing), reduced educational opportunities, an over-powered police force.


This has to stop. Now."


- I am just posting it to show that there are multiple viewpoints in this and the "lockdown at all costs" approach is only one of them.


New world order coming.
xioni2
01 April 2020 11:09:32


 BS


It takes, on average, about 20 days from symptoms to death. Include the incubation period and it's about 25 days from infection to death. Recovery times (negitive tests and lack of symptoms happen roughly at the same time) takes just as long.


If I was infected today, I'd expect to die or recover by the 25th April


 Boris Johnson developed symptoms on the 25th March.


If he was a very serious case he would not be due for ICU admission before about the 6th April


He would not be put on a ventilator until about the 9th April


And he would not be expected to die before the 15th April.


So no Boris has not 'recovered'. Even if his Fever and cough improve until this time next week you could not say with high probability that he wouldn't then take a turn for the worse. Most symptoms start to improve before the lung damage really kicks in.


 

Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Spot on.


 

speckledjim
01 April 2020 11:11:23


 


Then these people would have to stay isolated until vaccinated, surely? And I don't really see how you can ease a lockdown with up to 15 million people cut off from the rest of society. Is that workable? Don't know.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


I though the figure was 1.5m but no matter. If they are vulnerable then they will need to stay isolated to protect themselves. If they choose not to then that’s their risk. You can’t expect the whole country to remain in lockdown until a vaccine is available. 


Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
xioni2
01 April 2020 11:11:35


 Then these people would have to stay isolated until vaccinated, surely? And I don't really see how you can ease a lockdown with up to 15 million people cut off from the rest of society. Is that workable? Don't know.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


I also don't understand this. How can you completely isolate up to 15 million people for several months? What about their rights?

Justin W
01 April 2020 11:15:40


 


I though the figure was 1.5m but no matter. If they are vulnerable then they will need to stay isolated to protect themselves. If they choose not to then that’s their risk. You can’t expect the whole country to remain in lockdown until a vaccine is available. 


Originally Posted by: speckledjim 


The extremely vulnerable (those being shielded) number 1.5 million


The vulnerable (over 70s, people with chronic conditions like asthma, etc) number 13 or 14 million. The CFR rate for these people is north of 10%. Are you suggesting that these people should not be isolated? 


What you are suggesting sounds a lot like 'letting the virus rip/herd immunity'


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
speckledjim
01 April 2020 11:24:10
At some stage the lockdown will be eased, just as it has in SE Asia. If there is not a vaccine in place then those that are vulnerable will need to isolate or be v careful. That is no different from anyone who is immunosuppressed in ‘normal times’.
Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
The Beast from the East
01 April 2020 11:25:48


 


I do wonder at the point of a piece of paper you print off yourself and then fill in yourself.


And what happens if you don't have a printer?


Originally Posted by: westv 


Indeed, and some people don't have photo ID as its not required by law. I only have my passport


It would be a nightmare to administer and enforce and lead to so many social problems, especially in crowded council estates which are a tinderbox at the best of times


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Justin W
01 April 2020 11:26:14

At some stage the lockdown will be eased, just as it has in SE Asia. If there is not a vaccine in place then those that are vulnerable will need to isolate or be v careful. That is no different from anyone who is immunosuppressed in ‘normal times’.

Originally Posted by: speckledjim 


That is all very vague and, sorry to say, does not answer the fundamental point. 


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
01 April 2020 11:26:37


 


What you are suggesting sounds a lot like 'letting the virus rip/herd immunity'


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


That has to happen anyway, it cannot be controlled at this stage, the time that might have been possible was late January.


The Beast from the East
01 April 2020 11:27:41


 


Beast specialises in evidence-free assertions.


Originally Posted by: NickR 


Perhaps, but so does the most powerful man in the world


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
xioni2
01 April 2020 11:28:59

At some stage the lockdown will be eased, just as it has in SE Asia. If there is not a vaccine in place then those that are vulnerable will need to isolate or be v careful. That is no different from anyone who is immunosuppressed in ‘normal times’.

Originally Posted by: speckledjim 


Sure, but there have were no lockdowns in Asia outside of China. 

Heavy Weather 2013
01 April 2020 11:30:22

A further 16 deaths have been reported in Scotland and further 317 new cases.


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
Brian Gaze
01 April 2020 11:31:18

Don't have a link but I read an article suggesting another problem with herd immunity. Apparently as immunity builds up in the population the virus is more likely to mutate and it could turn into something even worse. The same presumably applies to the vaccine solution. Ideally the virus would be suppressed in the same way that SARS was.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
speckledjim
01 April 2020 11:33:56


 


Sure, but there have were no lockdowns in Asia outside of China. 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


not to the same extent as China but they’ve all introduced restrictions e.g on travel, school closures etc.


Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
xioni2
01 April 2020 11:37:06


not to the same extent as China but they’ve all introduced restrictions e.g on travel, school closures etc.


Originally Posted by: speckledjim 


Have they closed restaurants, shops etc.? Again I think we need to learn from them. Bring the number of new infections and hospitalisations down with the lockdown and then implement a massive test, trace and isolate programme (and close borders if necessary).

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