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SJV
22 April 2020 09:22:00


Hopefully a journalist will nail the government minister at this afternoon's "briefing".




Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Blimey that was a shocking read  The figure is a conservative one as well with any difference likely to be an upward trend.

Phil G
22 April 2020 09:22:15
Meanwhile, China gets off scott free.
speckledjim
22 April 2020 09:35:27

To those who think we need to wait to see who has had the best strategy, I would say: no. The countries that looked to eliminate this - NZ, Aus, SK - are, in every scenario, in the right. This article spells this out well:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/22/flattening-curve-new-zealand-coronavirus

Crunching the coronavirus curve is better than flattening it, as New Zealand is showing
Devi Sridhar

As Sars-CoV-2 has spread across the world, some countries have reacted with alarm and thorough preparations, given their previous experiences with Mers or Sars. In these countries, such as South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Vietnam, containment of the novel coronavirus became the imperative, regardless of cost. However, other countries chose to treat it like a bad flu strain that would be unstoppable and spread across the population until some kind of immunity was reached.

Much of the difference in countries’ initial responses can be attributed to whether they “overreacted”, given prior experience with two other more deadly coronaviruses, or whether they perceived the novel coronavirus from the start as just posing a moderate to low risk to their populations and eventually becoming endemic.

In the UK, the assumption until quite recently had seemed to be the latter. The containment phase ended on 12 March. At this point, testing ended for all those with minor symptoms (including frontline health staff), contact tracing stopped, airports remained open without checks on incoming flights or passengers, and physical distancing measures were ruled out. Large events involving tens of thousands of people went ahead a few days later, and non-essential travel continued. After considerable public pressure, lockdown measures were introduced on 23 March with the goal of keeping the coronavirus-related burden on health services within NHS capacity.

Where are we now? According to official figures, 16,509 people with Covid-19 have so far died in British hospitals. There are no official statistics for deaths in the community, but ONS data released today shows that of 6,200 Covid-19-related deaths in the week to 10 April, one in six of them happened outside hospital. We are on track for 40,000 deaths by just the end of the first wave of this outbreak, while also having to cope with the astronomical economic costs and heart-rending social implications of being in lockdown for weeks on end.

In a significant number of confirmed Covid cases, the health outcomes are severe, the disease can result in multiple organ failure and long-term lung damage, and the clinical need of patients for oxygen, ICU care and ventilators is much higher. Early clinical management of symptoms, to which Boris Johnson had access, means that outcomes are generally better, but that requires testing at an early stage of the disease.

New Zealand is in the enviable position of having fewer than 20 deaths, while Australia has managed to stay under 100. With early physical distancing measures and border control, and aggressive testing, tracing and isolating procedures in place, these countries are in a better position to ease lockdown earlier and get their economy and society going again, while keeping Covid-19-related deaths low. That’s as close to a win-win situation as a government can have right now.

However, when these international comparisons are made, some in government say that it is still too early to say how countries are performing, and others say that all countries will be in the same place, and any variation will depend on their healthcare capacity. It is worth thinking through the long-term scenarios for the future of Covid-19.

The first scenario: if we have an effective, safe and available vaccine or antiviral in the next 18 months, the countries that minimised loss of life with the least harsh economic restrictions will be in the best position. Australia, New Zealand and numerous east Asian countries have the outbreak under control and can in the short term manage the trickle of cases while waiting for the scientific solution.

The second scenario: in the absence of a vaccine or antiviral, some kind of population immunity will be built up so that the virus is not actively transmitting at a high level. This assumes that having the coronavirus leads to immunity for at least two or three years and that subsequent reinfection is mild. Even in this situation, the countries with low numbers of cases can wait for ongoing research on better identification of who is exactly “vulnerable” to developing severe symptoms, and shield these individuals so the burden on ICU care and loss of life are kept to a minimum. While we have some basic idea at population level about who is vulnerable, based on age and pre-existing conditions, scientists do not understand the individual genetic or immunological factors yet.

The third (worst-case) scenario: research might find that there is no lasting immunity to the virus, or in fact immune enhancement, which means subsequent reinfections would be more severe (similar to dengue). This creates a real case for countries with the capacity to eliminate the virus and keep in place border controls . Obviously the fewer cases present, the easier it is to eliminate a virus, and in this situation a precautionary approach to letting it spread through the population would have been well warranted.

In short, there are huge gaps in what we know about this virus, including about immunity, about the possibility and timeline for a vaccine or antiviral therapy, about who exactly is vulnerable, and about long-term health implications. For example, Italian scientists have warned that some patients are developing Guillain-Barré syndrome (temporary paralysis) as a side effect of Covid-19.

In this uncertainty, countries that are actively working to contain this virus and keep numbers as low as possible are buying time to build a more informed policy response while also protecting their economies and societies. Others, by letting the virus spread slowly through their populations (only flattening the curve instead of completely stopping the spread), are just gambling with people’s lives, and will be caught in cycles of lockdown/release that will destroy the economy and cause social unrest, as well as increased Covid-19- and non-Covid-19-related deaths.

• Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

Originally Posted by: NickR 


 


Clearly we do not know which countries have got it right/wrong. Perhaps in a years time we’ll be able to answer that question. 


Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
Retron
22 April 2020 09:42:29


Clearly we do not know which countries have got it right/wrong. Perhaps in a years time we’ll be able to answer that question. 


Originally Posted by: speckledjim 


Exactly! We won't know until it's over.


The main worry with countries that have tried to completely keep it out (like NZ) is that they remain full of completely vulnerable people. Fine and dandy as long as you keep it out, but can you keep that up for a whole year? If not...


Leysdown, north Kent
Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
22 April 2020 09:44:01


There seem to be so many similar stories of UK companies contacting HMG, getting nowhere and selling abroad. The govt should have setup a proper task force back in early March, but they seem better at lying instead of organising things.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 

I honestly believe we can produce all the PPE needed in this country as there are companies well able to do it. It just needs someone in HMG to get their act together and give the go-ahead instead of chasing RAF planes off for stuff that isn’t there.  Of course there’s a world shortage and they should have seen that coming!


It is frustrating that we have a loading bay full of boxes that may go overseas!  I’m working long hours for the NHS, I think!  


Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
Join the fun and banter of the monthly CET competition.
speckledjim
22 April 2020 09:44:28


 


Exactly! We won't know until it's over.


The main worry with countries that have tried to completely keep it out (like NZ) is that they remain full of completely vulnerable people. Fine and dandy as long as you keep it out, but can you keep that up for a whole year? If not...


Originally Posted by: Retron 


The big concern for countries like NZ is what happens when they open their borders which is what they will need to do to avoid economic collapse.


Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
westv
22 April 2020 09:47:14

From the BBC live news tracker


"In one month, Romania has raised €78 million (£69m) after handing out about 200,000 fines to people who flouted national virus restrictions. It’s roughly the equivalent of the national corporate tax income for the whole of February"


At least it will be mild!
xioni2
22 April 2020 09:48:49


 The big concern for countries like NZ is what happens when they open their borders which is what they will need to do to avoid economic collapse.


Originally Posted by: speckledjim 


Their borders are only closed to humans, not goods. In addition, they can re-open their borders to humans and take other measures (test all visitors, quarantine, allow travel only from countries that have contained the epidemic etc.).


 

xioni2
22 April 2020 09:50:01


The main worry with countries that have tried to completely keep it out (like NZ) is that they remain full of completely vulnerable people. Fine and dandy as long as you keep it out, but can you keep that up for a whole year? If not...


Originally Posted by: Retron 


In contrast to us who probably have still >95% of the population uninfected? 

fairweather
22 April 2020 09:50:57


 


Hancock is the biggest liar in the nest of liars known as the Government. He is so out of his depth in this crisis and so inept that his only options are to resign or to pile lie upon lie in the hope that the pandemic runs out of steam before he is dragged out of his hole and metaphorically clubbed like a Canadian seal.


Remember his candidacy for the Tory leadership? Remember him saying that No Deal was unconscionable? Remember rushing to sign up to Johnson's No Deal in order to stay in the Cabinet?


He is a pathetic little weasel. I for one am itching to dance on his political grave.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


Let's put it this way - He's started a new catch phrase for when you haven't paid someone -


"Your PPE is in the post"


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Maunder Minimum
22 April 2020 09:53:46


 


Are the scales finally falling from your eyes that you voted for a bunch of lying Charlatans?


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


The scales should fall from your eyes about the efficacy of a state owned healthcare system. Clearly, getting the massive PHE/NHS bureaucracy to react in a timely manner is beyond the ability of the system.


New world order coming.
Retron
22 April 2020 09:54:09


 


In contrast to us who probably have still >95% of the population uninfected? 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Yes, because we are - slowly but surely - building herd immunity.


Leysdown, north Kent
Maunder Minimum
22 April 2020 09:55:24




Stray email meant UK did not join EU scheme - care minister






Care minister Helen Whately says it is "very frustrating" that "an email went astray" meaning the UK did not participate in an EU scheme to source medical equipment.


On Tuesday, a senior civil servant retracted claims the UK had taken a "political decision" not to join the scheme.


Whately told BBC Radio 4's Today programme it was a "communication error".


The MP also said it is "really troubling" not as many people in the UK are being tested for coronavirus as could be.


She said the UK has the capacity to carry out 40,000 tests per day but on Tuesday only 18,000 were tested.


Whately said the government will try to improve the access to tests by increasing mobile testing units and sending out home testing kits to NHS and care workers.


___


How does an e-mail go astray. Funny how the senior civil servant has suddenly retracted their statement.


This statement also suggests that Whatley is heaping more pressure onto Hancock - his allies seem to be dwindling by the minute. 


His target of a 100k was always going to end in tears.




Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


The Government has got itself into a pickle of its own making over this, especially since the EU has not delivered a single piece of kit to anybody so far.


The Government should have simply stated from the outset that it had no interest in joining any EU scheme, instead of waffling about missing emails.


 


New world order coming.
fairweather
22 April 2020 09:56:00


Interesting report here on the fact that some patients still test positive to the antigen test, even after they have recovered from the corona virus:


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-china-patients-ins-idUKKCN2240HR


 


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


"Chinese doctors in Wuhan, where the virus first emerged in December, say a growing number of cases in which people recover from the virus, but continue to test positive without showing symptoms, is one of their biggest challenges as the country moves into a new phase of its containment battle."


If this proves to be widespread it is going to be a nightmare trying to establish who has had it or whether they are still infectious.


Could it also mean that many of the test kits that are claimed to be faulty giving false positives were actually right?


S.Essex, 42m ASL
westv
22 April 2020 09:56:14


 


In contrast to us who probably have still >95% of the population uninfected? 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


We have no idea how many have not been infected. All we know is how many of those tested have the virus.


At least it will be mild!
Gooner
22 April 2020 09:58:08


 


We have no idea how many have not been infected. All we know is how many of those tested have the virus.


Originally Posted by: westv 


I have a wide friend base and  many work colleagues , I hardly know of anyone that has been poorly let alone hinting at COVID -19 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Tim A
22 April 2020 10:05:22


 


 


Could it also mean that many of the test kits that are claimed to be faulty giving false positives were actually right?


Originally Posted by: fairweather 


I have some concerns about the test kits.  Firstly are we sure they are accurate? Are people being tested at the right time?, not accurate after 5 days - see https://www.england.nhs.uk/coronavirus/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2020/03/C0295-Testing-of-NHS-staff-and-household-members-letter-12-April-2020.pdf


 


Thirdly, are they being used correctly.  They need a swab of the throat,  often completed by non-clinical people.  I have heard stories of people being tested and them having to "have a second go" because they weren't sure they got to the right bit.  Doesn't inspire confidence. 


Tim
NW Leeds
187m asl

 My PWS 
Gandalf The White
22 April 2020 10:07:30


 


The Government has got itself into a pickle of its own making over this, especially since the EU has not delivered a single piece of kit to anybody so far.


The Government should have simply stated from the outset that it had no interest in joining any EU scheme, instead of waffling about missing emails.


 


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Why, at a time of impending crisis, would you turn down any potential avenue of potential help? 


Sorry, that’s just a prime example of pathetic blinkered thinking by a pathetic blinkered goverment.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


westv
22 April 2020 10:08:58


 


I have a wide friend base and  many work colleagues , I hardly know of anyone that has been poorly let alone hinting at COVID -19 


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Is that wide as in hundreds or wide as in 10s?


At least it will be mild!
xioni2
22 April 2020 10:10:10


 The scales should fall from your eyes about the efficacy of a state owned healthcare system. Clearly, getting the massive PHE/NHS bureaucracy to react in a timely manner is beyond the ability of the system.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


This is quite funny you know, let's see what Taiwan, the country you keep praising has done:



  • They centralized the management of mask production, starting at 2.4 million per day (twice their need of 1.3 million at the time)

  • They set the price to avoid profiteering, initially at USD $0.50 per mask

  • The penalty for price gouging for masks and other key items became 1–7 years in jail and a fine up to USD $167,000

  • From mid-February, the army was used in the production of masks and other PPE

  • The official price of masks was eventually down to ~$0.20 by the end of February

  • By the end of March production of masks was ramped up to 10 million masks per day (their population is just 23 million!)


 

NickR
22 April 2020 10:10:49


 


Yes, because we are - slowly but surely - building herd immunity.


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Herd immunity is a nonsense outside of a vaccine. Apart from anything else, we're probably talking months of immunity at best. And probably not for all those affected.


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
xioni2
22 April 2020 10:12:32


 We have no idea how many have not been infected. All we know is how many of those tested have the virus.


Originally Posted by: westv 


The WHO estimates that just 2-3% has been infected globally.


 

Retron
22 April 2020 10:12:52


I have a wide friend base and  many work colleagues , I hardly know of anyone that has been poorly let alone hinting at COVID -19 


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


I don't have a wide friend base and although I have many work colleagues, I've not seen or heard from most of them for the past month.


I've had covid-19 symptoms (cough, fever, sore throat, aches & pains, headaches - aside from the sore throat, all very unusual for me).


Two of the three of my closest friends have had multiple covid-19 symptoms. One of my friends has had her mum, boyfriend and brother come down with covid-19 symptoms - the mum and boyfriend both being confined to bed for a few days because of them.


At work, the head and executive head had covid-19 symptoms.


I don't suspect any of these actually were covid-19, but without testing there's just no way of knowing.


EDIT: For Nick, the best guess is that you would get 18-24 months' immunity, based on SARS and MERS, along with a reduced severity if you get reinfected. Even if it was just a few months, having some immune people wandering around acts as buffers, as you know, which reduces the threat exponentially (as the number of immune people rises).


Of course, it's not been 18-24 months since this started, so there's simply no way of knowing whether SARSv2 confers similar immunity to its close cousins SARS, MERS and indeed the coronaviruses that can lead to the common cold.


 


 


Leysdown, north Kent
xioni2
22 April 2020 10:15:42


 Yes, because we are - slowly but surely - building herd immunity.


Originally Posted by: Retron 


I think this idea is nonsense:



  • we don't know how long immunity lasts

  • our rate of immunisation is too slow to provide any meaningful protection to most of the population

  • we cannot increase that rate without having huge numbers of deaths

fairweather
22 April 2020 10:16:47

To those who think we need to wait to see who has had the best strategy, I would say: no. The countries that looked to eliminate this - NZ, Aus, SK - are, in every scenario, in the right. This article spells this out well:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/22/flattening-curve-new-zealand-coronavirus

Crunching the coronavirus curve is better than flattening it, as New Zealand is showing
Devi Sridhar

As Sars-CoV-2 has spread across the world, some countries have reacted with alarm and thorough preparations, given their previous experiences with Mers or Sars. In these countries, such as South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Vietnam, containment of the novel coronavirus became the imperative, regardless of cost. However, other countries chose to treat it like a bad flu strain that would be unstoppable and spread across the population until some kind of immunity was reached.

Much of the difference in countries’ initial responses can be attributed to whether they “overreacted”, given prior experience with two other more deadly coronaviruses, or whether they perceived the novel coronavirus from the start as just posing a moderate to low risk to their populations and eventually becoming endemic.

In the UK, the assumption until quite recently had seemed to be the latter. The containment phase ended on 12 March. At this point, testing ended for all those with minor symptoms (including frontline health staff), contact tracing stopped, airports remained open without checks on incoming flights or passengers, and physical distancing measures were ruled out. Large events involving tens of thousands of people went ahead a few days later, and non-essential travel continued. After considerable public pressure, lockdown measures were introduced on 23 March with the goal of keeping the coronavirus-related burden on health services within NHS capacity.

Where are we now? According to official figures, 16,509 people with Covid-19 have so far died in British hospitals. There are no official statistics for deaths in the community, but ONS data released today shows that of 6,200 Covid-19-related deaths in the week to 10 April, one in six of them happened outside hospital. We are on track for 40,000 deaths by just the end of the first wave of this outbreak, while also having to cope with the astronomical economic costs and heart-rending social implications of being in lockdown for weeks on end.

In a significant number of confirmed Covid cases, the health outcomes are severe, the disease can result in multiple organ failure and long-term lung damage, and the clinical need of patients for oxygen, ICU care and ventilators is much higher. Early clinical management of symptoms, to which Boris Johnson had access, means that outcomes are generally better, but that requires testing at an early stage of the disease.

New Zealand is in the enviable position of having fewer than 20 deaths, while Australia has managed to stay under 100. With early physical distancing measures and border control, and aggressive testing, tracing and isolating procedures in place, these countries are in a better position to ease lockdown earlier and get their economy and society going again, while keeping Covid-19-related deaths low. That’s as close to a win-win situation as a government can have right now.

However, when these international comparisons are made, some in government say that it is still too early to say how countries are performing, and others say that all countries will be in the same place, and any variation will depend on their healthcare capacity. It is worth thinking through the long-term scenarios for the future of Covid-19.

The first scenario: if we have an effective, safe and available vaccine or antiviral in the next 18 months, the countries that minimised loss of life with the least harsh economic restrictions will be in the best position. Australia, New Zealand and numerous east Asian countries have the outbreak under control and can in the short term manage the trickle of cases while waiting for the scientific solution.

The second scenario: in the absence of a vaccine or antiviral, some kind of population immunity will be built up so that the virus is not actively transmitting at a high level. This assumes that having the coronavirus leads to immunity for at least two or three years and that subsequent reinfection is mild. Even in this situation, the countries with low numbers of cases can wait for ongoing research on better identification of who is exactly “vulnerable” to developing severe symptoms, and shield these individuals so the burden on ICU care and loss of life are kept to a minimum. While we have some basic idea at population level about who is vulnerable, based on age and pre-existing conditions, scientists do not understand the individual genetic or immunological factors yet.

The third (worst-case) scenario: research might find that there is no lasting immunity to the virus, or in fact immune enhancement, which means subsequent reinfections would be more severe (similar to dengue). This creates a real case for countries with the capacity to eliminate the virus and keep in place border controls . Obviously the fewer cases present, the easier it is to eliminate a virus, and in this situation a precautionary approach to letting it spread through the population would have been well warranted.

In short, there are huge gaps in what we know about this virus, including about immunity, about the possibility and timeline for a vaccine or antiviral therapy, about who exactly is vulnerable, and about long-term health implications. For example, Italian scientists have warned that some patients are developing Guillain-Barré syndrome (temporary paralysis) as a side effect of Covid-19.

In this uncertainty, countries that are actively working to contain this virus and keep numbers as low as possible are buying time to build a more informed policy response while also protecting their economies and societies. Others, by letting the virus spread slowly through their populations (only flattening the curve instead of completely stopping the spread), are just gambling with people’s lives, and will be caught in cycles of lockdown/release that will destroy the economy and cause social unrest, as well as increased Covid-19- and non-Covid-19-related deaths.

• Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

Originally Posted by: NickR 


Crunching the curve involves something called hard work and effort. Talking the talk wouldn't hack it despite being this Government's strong point.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
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