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Gandalf The White
05 May 2020 09:12:20


Why has HMG built its own centralised contact tracing app instead of using the Apple/Google decentralised one? Do I want HMG and selected third parties to know where I’ve been, who I’ve seen and what I’ve been doing?


 


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


Do we know how the app works yet? Do you know that the government will have your details? If so, how, if it's being downloaded from the AppStore and the Android equivalent?  I understood it would just hold details of the phone ID and any message would go to the phone, not to a named person?


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


The Beast from the East
05 May 2020 09:13:07


Why has HMG built its own centralised contact tracing app instead of using the Apple/Google decentralised one? Do I want HMG and selected third parties to know where I’ve been, who I’ve seen and what I’ve been doing?


 


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


I certainly wont be using it. So many potential security hacks. A lot of people have banking details on their phone etc, and I assume some dodgy characters in Bangalore have worked out how to tap in


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Brian Gaze
05 May 2020 09:15:02


 


Do we know how the app works yet? Do you know that the government will have your details? If so, how, if it's being downloaded from the AppStore and the Android equivalent?  I understood it would just hold details of the phone ID and any message would go to the phone, not to a named person?


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


1) You install the app from Google or Apple


2) Once active it logs an identifier and data (distance, time) of other blue tooth enabled smart phones within a 10m distance


3) If I develop C19 symptoms it calls a web-service and sends my details as well as the contacts that have been recorded in the last x days to a centralised database


4) The contacts receive a push notification alerting them they could have been exposed


 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
The Beast from the East
05 May 2020 09:15:33


 


Do we know how the app works yet? Do you know that the government will have your details? If so, how, if it's being downloaded from the AppStore and the Android equivalent?  I understood it would just hold details of the phone ID and any message would go to the phone, not to a named person?


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


I've already heard of people getting dodgy texts claiming to be from HMG to download an app, which must be a fake Indian one. A lot of people will fall for it and allow their phones to be infected


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Justin W
05 May 2020 09:18:05


 


Do we know how the app works yet? Do you know that the government will have your details? If so, how, if it's being downloaded from the AppStore and the Android equivalent?  I understood it would just hold details of the phone ID and any message would go to the phone, not to a named person?


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


We don’t exactly but we know it sends your IMEI number to a centralised server. And the name of the person associated with the IMEI is easily obtainable - the police don’t even need a warrant to get it. Indeed the authorities can simply demand it from the carrier.
There are so many issues with this. HMG will know that I’ve not had CV19. Will ‘selected third parties’? How will this affect my access to insurance? And so on. I would be happy with a decentralised collection of data but not a centralised one. The UK is already subject to more surveillance than any other western country.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Gandalf The White
05 May 2020 09:19:52


 From The New York Times:


 


As President Trump presses for states to reopen their economies, his administration is privately projecting a steady rise in the number of coronavirus cases and deaths over the next several weeks. The daily death toll will reach about 3,000 on June 1, according to an internal document obtained by The New York Times, a 70 percent increase from the current number of about 1,750.


The projections, based on government modeling pulled together by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, forecast about 200,000 new cases each day by the end of the month, up from about 25,000 cases a day currently.


The numbers underscore a sobering reality: The United States has been hunkered down for the past seven weeks to try slowing the spread of the virus, but reopening the economy will make matters worse.


“There remains a large number of counties whose burden continues to grow,” the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warned.


As the administration privately predicted a sharp increase in deaths, a public model that has been frequently cited by the White House revised its own estimates, doubling its projected death toll.


The Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington is now estimating that there will be nearly 135,000 deaths in the United States through the beginning of August — more than double what it forecast on April 17, when it estimated 60,308 deaths by Aug. 4. (The country has already had more than 68,000 deaths.)


The institute wrote that the revisions reflected “rising mobility in most U.S. states as well as the easing of social distancing measures expected in 31 states by May 11, indicating that growing contacts among people will promote transmission of the coronavirus.”


The projections confirm the primary fear of public health experts: that a reopening of the economy will put the nation back where it was in mid-March, when cases were rising so rapidly in some parts of the country that patients were dying on gurneys in hospital hallways.


On Sunday, Mr. Trump said deaths in the United States could reach 100,000, twice as many as he had forecast two weeks ago. But that new number still underestimates what his own administration is now predicting to be the total death toll by the end of May — much less in the months to come. It follows a pattern for Mr. Trump, who has frequently understated the impact of the disease.


“We’re going to lose anywhere from 75, 80 to 100,000 people,” he said in a virtual town hall on Fox News on Sunday. “That’s a horrible thing. We shouldn’t lose one person over this.”


The White House responded that the new federal government projections had not been vetted.


“This data is not reflective of any of the modeling done by the task force or data that the task force has analyzed,” said Judd Deere, a White House spokesman


Originally Posted by: llamedos 


It was obvious that the US was going to crash into an even bigger wave if it relaxed the restrictions too soon. But no doubt the gun-toting imbeciles who were, with Trump's encouragement, out clamouring for their 'rights' will find someone else to blame. Democrat-controlled states have been more cautious whilst Republican ones have been more hung-ho; it will be interesting to see how that plays out in the politics. I can't see how it could possibly help Trump or the Republicans if a stark pattern starts to emerge.


John P provided a link yesterday to an article which flagged how abysmally the modelling being relied on by the White House had performed.  It was, of course, only their preferred model because they liked the projections of low numbers of cases and deaths.


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
05 May 2020 09:23:37


 


We don’t exactly but we know it sends your IMEI number to a centralised server. And the name of the person associated with the IMEI is easily obtainable - the police don’t even need a warrant to get it. Indeed the authorities can simply demand it from the carrier.
There are so many issues with this. HMG will know that I’ve not had CV19. Will ‘selected third parties’? How will this affect my access to insurance? And so on. I would be happy with a decentralised collection of data but not a centralised one. The UK is already subject to more surveillance than any other western country.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


If that's the case I'm with you.  But personally I would be content with a slight and temporary infringement of my rights in the wider national interest. The problem, of course, is how long 'temporary' means and what confidence do I have that the information has been wiped?


I heard on the radio this morning that a lawyer was planning to challenge the app under the Human Rights legislation.  No doubt Richard will love that....


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Justin W
05 May 2020 09:28:55


 


If that's the case I'm with you.  But personally I would be content with a slight and temporary infringement of my rights in the wider national interest. The problem, of course, is how long 'temporary' means and what confidence do I have that the information has been wiped?


I heard on the radio this morning that a lawyer was planning to challenge the app under the Human Rights legislation.  No doubt Richard will love that....


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


HMG doesn’t do ‘temporary’.


Major promised us the tolls on the QEII bridge would be removed once it had been paid for.


The rise in VAT to 20% was temporary


Parts of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act were ‘temporary’


Some anti terror measures would ‘only be in place for a short time’


Our military presence in Afghanistan was ‘temporary’


 


And so on...


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
05 May 2020 09:38:10


 


Perhaps its domestic cats?


I enjoy reading the old thread and my complacency was similar to Boris! 


Didn't we have an earlier thread in the Science forum back in December, when the Chinese first reported it?


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 

We had a thread in the science forum started around 20th January, just before I went to the Far East. 


Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
Join the fun and banter of the monthly CET competition.
xioni2
05 May 2020 09:38:43

I will probably use the app, privacy is less important to me during this emergency. If not enough people use it, then it will be useless.

westv
05 May 2020 09:38:45


I heard on the radio this morning that a lawyer was planning to challenge the app under the Human Rights legislation.  No doubt Richard will love that....


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


How would that work then seeing as you don't have to download it?


At least it will be mild!
The Beast from the East
05 May 2020 09:45:29


 


It was obvious that the US was going to crash into an even bigger wave if it relaxed the restrictions too soon. But no doubt the gun-toting imbeciles who were, with Trump's encouragement, out clamouring for their 'rights' will find someone else to blame. Democrat-controlled states have been more cautious whilst Republican ones have been more hung-ho; it will be interesting to see how that plays out in the politics. I can't see how it could possibly help Trump or the Republicans if a stark pattern starts to emerge.


John P provided a link yesterday to an article which flagged how abysmally the modelling being relied on by the White House had performed.  It was, of course, only their preferred model because they liked the projections of low numbers of cases and deaths.


 


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


It doesn't matter how many die. The China message his hitting home very well for him. Polls show that most Americans blame China and Trump is tapping into that very well and is able to link Sleepy Joe with Chinese companies for his business interests, and his son Hunter


Sleepy Joe also facing rape allegations, which are not true, but truth doesn't matter anymore. Just put it out there on Fox news and talk radio and half the population will believe it!


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Justin W
05 May 2020 09:46:17

The NHS app is entirely based on self reporting. No follow up test or medical assessment at all. 
No other country has gone down this route.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Brian Gaze
05 May 2020 09:47:09


The NHS app is entirely based on self reporting. No follow up test or medical assessment at all. 
No other country has gone down this route.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


That's one reason why it is so open to abuse. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Quantum
05 May 2020 09:48:41

Trusting the NHS to write up a suitable private contract for this App is like trusting a chimp to captin an aircraft carrier. Inevitably its going to go very wrong.


The NHS is just bad at everything. It seems to have a policy of pretending the private sector doesn't exist while still using it. The consequence is the worst of both worlds where it gets taken for rides by crappy startups. What will it take for people to realize just how broken the NHS is? Because apparantely unlimited funding to the point of economic collapse is not enough, people will still be like 'itl work so long as you fund it better'.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
05 May 2020 09:49:41


I will probably use the app, privacy is less important to me during this emergency. If not enough people use it, then it will be useless.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


I will too. Anything to get us out of this crisis.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Justin W
05 May 2020 09:50:57


Trusting the NHS to write up a suitable private contract for this App is like trusting a chimp to captin an aircraft carrier. Inevitably its going to go very wrong.


The NHS is just bad at everything. It seems to have a policy of pretending the private sector doesn't exist while still using it. The consequence is the worst of both worlds where it gets taken for rides by crappy startups. What will it take for people to realize just how broken the NHS is? Because apparantely unlimited funding to the point of economic collapse is not enough, people will still be like 'itl work so long as you fund it better'.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


The NHS has not written this app or drawn up its requirements.

Your post suggests you actually know very little about healthcare in this country. 


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Brian Gaze
05 May 2020 09:51:08

Sorry folks...growing signs the cavalry isn't arriving:


Why a coronavirus vaccine could take years - and may not be possible at all


An increasing number of scientists are warning that finding an effective jab may take much longer than 18 months


...


The bad news on the vaccine front is that an increasing number of scientists are warning that finding an effective jab may take much longer than the year to 18 months people have been talking about. You can call them kill-joys – and many have – but the truth is they have a point.


Similarly optimistic positions were taken in the early days of the HIV pandemic and now – more than 30 years later – there is still no vaccine. Even the jabs we have for influenza are seasonal and only partially effective.


...


“If you’re hoping a vaccine is going to be a knight in shining armour saving the day, you may be in for a disappointment. Sars-Cov-2 is a highly contagious virus. A vaccine will need to induce durable high level immunity, but coronaviruses often don’t induce that kind of immunity,” he said.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/funds-will-vaccine-coronavirus-really-possible/


 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
fairweather
05 May 2020 09:51:27


 


The thing going round at Christmas was regular flu - H3N2, to be exact.

Originally Posted by: Retron 


H3N2 is not "regular" flu, if that's what it was. It was like a flu that had symptoms like no other. The only symptoms of this strain were a brief fever and a three week dry crippling cough. That's not just me, I spoke to a lot of people over the period. Of the sample of about 10 I spoke to they all knew somebody else with the same cough.


My only logical conclusions are that H3N2 gives these unique symptoms alone or that there was another type of virus going round at the same time as H3N2 and Covid-19.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Quantum
05 May 2020 09:52:04


Why has HMG built its own centralised contact tracing app instead of using the Apple/Google decentralised one? Do I want HMG and selected third parties to know where I’ve been, who I’ve seen and what I’ve been doing?


 


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


Because its the NHS.


It always does this. The NHS can't even contract out basic catering or cleaning without f*cking it up. Everytime the NHS has tried to do anything IT related it has always ended up  messing it up in almost a cartoonish way.


Its a broken, decrepit system that only exists for the same reason Islam, Christanity or Judaism still exists. Century old blind worship in something that doesn't exist.


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
05 May 2020 09:54:04


 


The NHS has not written this app or drawn up its requirements.

Your post suggests you actually know very little about healthcare in this country. 


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


I know, that's not what I said.


What I did say is that the NHS is thoroughly incompetent when it comes to writing up private contracts.


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
05 May 2020 09:56:00

Why was the UK the slowest in Europe to ramp up testing despite being the first country in Europe to recognize how important testing was?


The NHS messed it up by fudging up its ability to use private and university lab resources.


I can guarantee this app will fail in ways I can't even imagine because the company was picked by the NHS.


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Justin W
05 May 2020 09:56:24


 


I know, that's not what I said.


What I did say is that the NHS is thoroughly incompetent when it comes to writing up private contracts.


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


The NHS did not ‘write up’ the contract for this app.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
fairweather
05 May 2020 09:57:41


Why has HMG built its own centralised contact tracing app instead of using the Apple/Google decentralised one? Do I want HMG and selected third parties to know where I’ve been, who I’ve seen and what I’ve been doing?


 


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


They don't. It stays on your phone. may be different if you get symptoms, not sure but individuals are just random numbers. At least that's what they say.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Justin W
05 May 2020 09:58:05


Why was the UK the slowest in Europe to ramp up testing despite being the first country in Europe to recognize how important testing was?


The NHS messed it up by fudging up its ability to use private and university lab resources.


I can guarantee this app will fail in ways I can't even imagine because the company was picked by the NHS.


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


No. The decision to move away from a testing-based approach was not made by the NHS.


 


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?

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