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Ulric
06 May 2020 08:08:13


 


Predictable response from you - the article states nothing of the sort, it makes a critique of the structures we have created in this country.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


You didn't expect me to actually read it, did you?



To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection. - Henri Poincaré
Ulric
06 May 2020 08:15:03
Clearly, it's possible to track phones effectively and there are commercial packages which can do it.
After that, it's just a matter of correlating the data.

https://geolocaliserunportable.fr/ 

To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection. - Henri Poincaré
Gavin D
06 May 2020 08:18:12

bledur
06 May 2020 08:22:17


Some are finally starting to ask the correct questions:


https://www.1828.org.uk/2020/05/05/the-uks-catalogue-of-catastrophes-and-what-to-do-next/


 


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 

Yes indeed , it is whole infrastructure that is at fault. I posted on here weeks ago about the failings of PHE and i only know how bad they are as my sister has to deal with them daily.There are too many managers passing the buck.

Phil G
06 May 2020 08:25:12

I wish Russia would let 'their little secret' out of the bag as to why they have such a low death rate compared to cases.
Today's new cases 10,559
New deaths 86

One would say they are being a bit 'economical' with the truth on reporting deaths. Or perhaps the way they process deaths on the books takes 1-2 months perhaps!

Remember those images a few weeks back of ambulances in jams queueing for 9 hours just to admit patients. That's when the new cases figure was much lower around 4k.

Ministers going down with the virus like flies, over 100 doctors and nurses dying with some influential ones also managing to fall out of windows.

Just waiting for a massive story to be leaked by someone over there just how really bad it is, and the cover up.

Justin W
06 May 2020 08:25:15


Some are finally starting to ask the correct questions:


https://www.1828.org.uk/2020/05/05/the-uks-catalogue-of-catastrophes-and-what-to-do-next/


 


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


I don't agree with all of it but it is an interesting piece. Clearly there is blame enough to go round - for instance, were NHS managers responsible for ensuring that frontline staff had enough PPE for an epidemic on this scale or were ministers? I imagine these are questions which only a public inquiry will be able to answer.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Ulric
06 May 2020 08:32:29


I don't agree with all of it but it is an interesting piece. Clearly there is blame enough to go round - for instance, were NHS managers responsible for ensuring that frontline staff had enough PPE for an epidemic on this scale or were ministers? I imagine these are questions which only a public inquiry will be able to answer.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


I think it's clear from the discussions we've had previously on here that HMG actively prevented NHS managers from buying PPE. That, after having sold off our stockpile. It's ridiculous to try to blame managers who have no power to make a purchasing decision, for a shortage.


To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection. - Henri Poincaré
Phil G
06 May 2020 08:34:47
Another day of c4k new cases reported in this country yesterday.

Does anyone know what the lowest level of reporting can be drilled down to these figures, down to town perhaps?
Be good to see where these outbreaks are and if any suggestion of what is driving these before any relaxations come into play which may only/will probably increase the figure again.
To me, we have to get on top of what is causing this constant new case figure. The worry is its not dropping and that is still a high base to start relaxing restrictions.
The figures will soon take off again with such a large new case rate still.
David M Porter
06 May 2020 08:35:45


Ferguson all over the media this morning for all the wrong reasons. However, sadly one can't help suspecting that he's enjoying the limelight. Doubtlessly a very clever man but one who even before this debacle had been constantly on the airwaves. Once corona is over (if we get to that stage) a new career in reality TV is certainly available to him.


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Looks as though Ferguson has made the same kind of error of judgement that Dr Catherine Calerwood made in early April in not adhering to lockdown rules.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
The Beast from the East
06 May 2020 08:39:32




Originally Posted by: Gavin D 


Furlough is the only thing they have got right. To cut it so soon would be a catastrophic error, leading to mass unemployment. 


I thought it was "safe" to print money at the moment with no inflationary consequences


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
The Beast from the East
06 May 2020 08:42:02


 


Looks as though Ferguson has made the same kind of error of judgement that Dr Catherine Calerwood made in early April in not adhering to lockdown rules.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


But he was banging a hot blonde, so I think it was worth it!


And as Brian says, a career in reality TV beckons, perhaps even Celebrity Love Island


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
llamedos
  • llamedos
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
06 May 2020 08:42:37


 


Looks as though Ferguson has made the same kind of error of judgement that Dr Catherine Calerwood made in early April in not adhering to lockdown rules.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 

Sorry to disagree David, but not practising what you preach is not an error of judgement, for a person in his position it's hypocrisy of the highest order. Shameful!


"Life with the Lions"

TWO Moderator
Gavin D
06 May 2020 08:45:02

David M Porter
06 May 2020 08:46:24

Came across this article on Facebook last night re the response of some members of the scientific community to the government's handling of the crisis:


https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2020/05/05/scientists-issue-a-direct-challenge-to-the-government-over-its-shambolic-coronavirus-response/?fbclid=IwAR2YwBCVX00AIfD2NtnEGv1NQhg9gZQYig5zDpynL9flaoHdaDjEx-tBotg


Doesn't make good reading for the government at all, in my view.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
David M Porter
06 May 2020 08:52:52


Sorry to disagree David, but not practising what you preach is not an error of judgement, for a person in his position it's hypocrisy of the highest order. Shameful!


Originally Posted by: llamedos 


FWIW I don't disagree with you in any way John; I guess I was trying to be too diplomatic when I described it as an error of judgement.


What I think we can agree on for sure is that both Ferguson and Calderwood acted very irresponsibly, to put it mildly, when they failed to adhere to the same lockdown rules that they were both instrumental in helping the UK and Scottish governments to put in place in March. That's what cost Calderwood her job as CMO for Scotland a few weeks back.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
The Beast from the East
06 May 2020 08:58:18


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
David M Porter
06 May 2020 09:05:38




Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


They're all incompetent?


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Gandalf The White
06 May 2020 09:06:37


Sorry to disagree David, but not practising what you preach is not an error of judgement, for a person in his position it's hypocrisy of the highest order. Shameful!


Originally Posted by: llamedos 


I don't think it reflects well on our society and its values where someone has to resign over a misjudgement that has little to do with their ability and skill in their role. I agree 100% that he was foolish and made an error of judgement but I don't see how removing an acknowledged world-leading expert in his field at a critical time in the pandemic is anything but negative.


Nor do I think the label 'hypocrisy' is correct in this case: it seimoly does not fit the definition of the word at all.  Definition:  'Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character traits or inclinations'. Sorry, but that is not what he has done.


A lapse of judgement is a lapse of judgement. Does it affect his ability to do his job? Is the threat of being hounded by the media the yardstick by which judgements are made or should, properly, be made?  


By any reasonable standards this is another poor reflection on how our media operates and how we allow it to colour our judgement.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Darren S
06 May 2020 09:10:50


I wish Russia would let 'their little secret' out of the bag as to why they have such a low death rate compared to cases.
Today's new cases 10,559
New deaths 86

One would say they are being a bit 'economical' with the truth on reporting deaths. Or perhaps the way they process deaths on the books takes 1-2 months perhaps!

Originally Posted by: Phil G 


Russia's death figures are not the lowest in proportion to new cases. In any case bear in mind that deaths lag new cases by 2-3 weeks; 2-3 weeks ago Russia only had 1-2,000 cases per day.


Current country totals include:


Russia 165,929 cases, 1,537 deaths (0.9%)
Saudi Arabia 30,251 cases, 200 deaths (0.6%)
Chile 22,016 cases, 275 deaths (1.2%)
Singapore 20,198 cases, 18 deaths (0.1%)
Belarus 18,350 cases, 107 deaths (0.6%)
Qatar 17,142 cases, 12 deaths (0.1%)
UAE 15,192 cases, 146 deaths (1.0%)
Kuwait 5,804 cases, 40 deaths (0.7%)


I haven't noticed you calling out Singapore or Qatar?


Darren
Crowthorne, Berks (87m asl)
South Berks Winter Snow Depth Totals:
2023/24 0 cm; 2022/23 7 cm; 2021/22 1 cm; 2020/21 13 cm; 2019/20 0 cm; 2018/19 14 cm; 2017/18 23 cm; 2016/17 0 cm; 2015/16 0.5 cm; 2014/15 3.5 cm; 2013/14 0 cm; 2012/13 22 cm; 2011/12 7 cm; 2010/11 6 cm; 2009/10 51 cm
Maunder Minimum
06 May 2020 09:19:04

Worth reading in full, whatever you might think of Staines:


https://order-order.com/2020/05/06/experts-respond-government-nhs-app-rebuttal/


 


New world order coming.
David M Porter
06 May 2020 09:19:08


 


I don't think it reflects well on our society and its values where someone has to resign over a misjudgement that has little to do with their ability and skill in their role. I agree 100% that he was foolish and made an error of judgement but I don't see how removing an acknowledged world-leading expert in his field at a critical time in the pandemic is anything but negative.


Nor do I think the label 'hypocrisy' is correct in this case: it seimoly does not fit the definition of the word at all.  Definition:  'Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character traits or inclinations'. Sorry, but that is not what he has done.


A lapse of judgement is a lapse of judgement. Does it affect his ability to do his job? Is the threat of being hounded by the media the yardstick by which judgements are made or should, properly, be made?  


By any reasonable standards this is another poor reflection on how our media operates and how we allow it to colour our judgement.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


I don't like to see any person have to resign from their job under any circumstances. However, I do think that with this country and the rest of the world in the middle of an major health emergency, it is very important that they adhere to, and are seen to be adhering to, the same rules and conditions that they were instrumental in helping to put in place which every member of the public has to live by right now.


 


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
llamedos
  • llamedos
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
06 May 2020 09:32:25


 


I don't think it reflects well on our society and its values where someone has to resign over a misjudgement that has little to do with their ability and skill in their role. I agree 100% that he was foolish and made an error of judgement but I don't see how removing an acknowledged world-leading expert in his field at a critical time in the pandemic is anything but negative.


Nor do I think the label 'hypocrisy' is correct in this case: it seimoly does not fit the definition of the word at all.  Definition:  'Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character traits or inclinations'. Sorry, but that is not what he has done.


A lapse of judgement is a lapse of judgement. Does it affect his ability to do his job? Is the threat of being hounded by the media the yardstick by which judgements are made or should, properly, be made?  


By any reasonable standards this is another poor reflection on how our media operates and how we allow it to colour our judgement.


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

I agree that what he has done doesn't impact his abilities or his value to science and resigning or being forced to resign is a serious loss at this time.


On the point of semantics the term "error of judgement" is a term bandied around all too frequently IMO. It's sincerity has become diluted - if you don't really want to qualify what is wrong about a decision you've willingly taken then just put it down to an error of judgement - easy! Perhaps "hypocrisy" was not the most apt terminology, but neither was the one used.


I'll have to flick through my well thumbed copy of Roget's Thesaurus unless you can come up with one off the cuff, Peter 


"Life with the Lions"

TWO Moderator
Justin W
06 May 2020 09:40:48


 


I think it's clear from the discussions we've had previously on here that HMG actively prevented NHS managers from buying PPE. That, after having sold off our stockpile. It's ridiculous to try to blame managers who have no power to make a purchasing decision, for a shortage.


Originally Posted by: Ulric 


I don't know whether this is true. Have you got any sources for the claim that HMG actively prevented NHS managers from buying PPE? Thanks.


Yo yo yo. 148-3 to the 3 to the 6 to the 9, representing the ABQ, what up, biatch?
Sharp Green Fox
06 May 2020 09:42:23

Thanks for all comments on the graph - helpful and much appreciated.
Roger

Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 


Roger.


 


I've arrived late to this and the comments made are excellent. Statistics can always be interpreted in a way which suits the persons opinion. With the death rate for Coronavirus this obviously applies. One point I will make and I am not giving an opinion here. The 4 most sizeable  countries in Europe with the highest population densities are  1.The Netherlands, 2.Belgium and  3. United Kingdom 4. Germany.


However of these 4 the United Kingdom also has the largest share of remote areas, therefore it is likely that the urban areas of the UK are actually more densely populated than the other 3 countries. As far as I know this hasn't been mentioned in the comparisons.


 


Brian

Maunder Minimum
06 May 2020 09:44:43


 


I don't know whether this is true. Have you got any sources for the claim that HMG actively prevented NHS managers from buying PPE? Thanks.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


He won't have any reliable sources, that is certain.


https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/nhs-procurement


 


New world order coming.

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