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fairweather
07 January 2024 12:52:10

It is around day 8 and can be useful for trends if there is a consistent overall pattern (especially in the ensemble data). 

However in reality it is often discounted as FI if it shows real cold but taken as a worrying sign if it shows a breakdown in cold on any one op run. 😉

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


 That's the problem with forums. You lose the intonation and instant clarification. I see it the opposite! If there's sign of cold in FI then the cold fans jump on it but if anyone dares put up a mild chart at F1 they are excommunicated.  (Sorry, were, it's ok now). As GTW says though, it's often more about a person's personality than the charts. Also you can get an individual slitting their wrists over one run then cracking open the champagne on the next, on the same day! I was like that once, it must be a youth thing 😀
S.Essex, 42m ASL
Nordic Snowman
07 January 2024 13:10:51

Love those charts. Love the ECM too 😁 Looking like snow showers for you Doc on those charts but for those in the south of England, T+168, T+192 and T+240 is a long way off and things could change. I personally hope they don't but how many times do T+240 charts actually verify? Not very often is my guess but despite the subtle changes in detail, I do think the models have had a pretty good take on the overall picture which is high pressure over the UK (predicted over a week ago) which then extends northwards and then NW towards Iceland & Greenland. With that, pressure falls over Scandinavia and this has been consistently shown. The ensemble means have been pretty solid but we have all seen how even they can flip at the drop of a hat.
Bjorli, Norway

Website 
Chunky Pea
07 January 2024 13:11:17

It’s remarkable how quickly heights drain from Greenland and we’re back to the Atlantic by day 12. Support from the suite for this now growing. 

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 



I hope the next batch of Atlantic weather will be a bit more vigorous than what this slack, dank borefest winter has produced so far.
Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
ballamar
07 January 2024 13:11:19
P9 is the new trend setter for the last part of January
fairweather
07 January 2024 13:53:23
This a genuine question about why it currently isn't as cold here as I would expect. It is 5C. Is it as simple as adding 1.5C due to climate change. Obviously not that simple. So, first of all, odd question, but have the colours changed on the GFS 850 hPa charts from say 15 years or so ago. I remember that any deep blue over the S.E. on a shortish fetch from a very cold and snow covered Europe and Scandinavia would have most likely given 2-3C max, not 5C as today. From a scientific standpoint though surely -9C is -9C and is absolute. It might be less common now but it should still produce the same temperature at the ground as it always did, without modifictions. Perhaps my memory is wrong and that it needs more time to establish. The lack of frost is also a bit of a puzzle. It was quite clear and little wind last night but min was 1.1C. I thought 500hPa was about average at the moment unless it is that. Or perhaps saturated ground after a long relatively mild spell nd no frosts. Any thoughts welcome or corrections to any misconceptions. (Incidentally current coastal ssst's are 8-11C in this area.)
S.Essex, 42m ASL
AJ*
  • AJ*
  • Advanced Member
07 January 2024 13:57:14

They get little mention on here but I still like to have a look at the Met Office Fax charts.

Originally Posted by: fairweather 



Me too. I have very limited time for looking at model output and rely on posts from others more expert than me, but the Fax charts get looked at most days.

And having been prompted by Darren to look at them again since earlier this morning - ooh look, there's a convergence zone shown on Monday, and it's aligned to run over west Kent. (BTW kudos to Darren for highlighting the potential for snowfall a good few days ago, well before the mainstream forecasters did so.)
Angus; one of the Kent crew on TWO.
Tonbridge, 40m (131ft) asl
Brian Gaze
07 January 2024 13:59:24

So, first of all, odd question, but have the colours changed on the GFS 850 hPa charts from say 15 years or so ago.

Originally Posted by: fairweather 



The charts are generated from the raw data sets, regardless of which website you view them on. Therefore, the colours used are arbitrary.
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Hippydave
07 January 2024 14:03:18

This a genuine question about why it currently isn't as cold here as I would expect. It is 5C. Is it as simple as adding 1.5C due to climate change. Obviously not that simple. So, first of all, odd question, but have the colours changed on the GFS 850 hPa charts from say 15 years or so ago. I remember that any deep blue over the S.E. on a shortish fetch from a very cold and snow covered Europe and Scandinavia would have most likely given 2-3C max, not 5C as today. From a scientific standpoint though surely -9C is -9C and is absolute. It might be less common now but it should still produce the same temperature at the ground as it always did, without modifictions. Perhaps my memory is wrong and that it needs more time to establish. The lack of frost is also a bit of a puzzle. It was quite clear and little wind last night but min was 1.1C. I thought 500hPa was about average at the moment unless it is that. Or perhaps saturated ground after a long relatively mild spell nd no frosts. Any thoughts welcome or corrections to any misconceptions. (Incidentally current coastal ssst's are 8-11C in this area.)

Originally Posted by: fairweather 



I'd assume it's a case of warmer than normal North Sea modifying the surface layer plus not particularly cold air aloft at this stage and the flow has only just turned east and it takes a little bit to draw the colder air (aloft and at the surface) in. 

Fwiw it's 3.3c here and given cloud cover and the easterly flow establishing I doubt it'll get any higher for the next 3 days or so. 
Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Retron
07 January 2024 14:14:27

This a genuine question about why it currently isn't as cold here as I would expect. It is 5C. Is it as simple as adding 1.5C due to climate change. Obviously not that simple. (snip)

Originally Posted by: fairweather 


850s have only been around -6C so far today (varying between -5 and -7), and as such it's not going to be especially cold.

Although people have rightly mentioned that the classic cold spells had 850s of similar, or even higher values, bear in mind they already had cold air at the surface - i.e. the thin "boundary layer" near the surface was colder than it is now. It's my experience that it takes -10 or lower to get snow near coastal areas (and even lower once you get past mid-Feb), but after a day or two of it you'll get away with higher 850s.

The other thing to bear in mind is the track of the winds - at the moment they're NE'ly, so coming over quite a long stretch of sea. They'll be more ENE'ly tomorrow, meaning less modification of the boundary layer by the sea, i.e. even with the same 850s you would expect a degree or so to be knocked off.

As for the lack of frost, there are several reasons - the saturated ground will have stored quite a bit of heat, and wet ground takes longer to cool down than dry ground. The airmass itself was still in the process of drying out, the colder Continental air didn't arrive until midnight. There was also some high cloud floating around in the early hours this morning and that would have affected the outgoing longwave radiation - a gin-clear night is best. It also wasn't flat calm, there were gusts of wind through the small hours in your neck of the woods, and even if your own garden was calm, you wouldn't have had to go far up to get some wind.
Note that this all applies to the Kent/Essex area, the calculations and conditions would have been different "up north", for example.

Now that the cold airmass is firmly in place, and with temperatures aloft falling over the next 18 hours or so, conditions will be more conducive for frosts - IF the wind falls light, which it won't!

Some places inland may even see a penetrating frost tomorrow night, where the airmass itself is so cold temperatures fall below zero despite the wind. They're the frosts which are especially damaging to tender plants.

Incidentally, for those who were unaware - Wundermap is a great way of seeing all the PWSs, and you can click on one to see the graph of wind, temperature etc. I'd imagine most of us will have several nearby, and even if you have your own station it's a great way of seeing whether you're in a bit of a frost hollow, for example.

https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?lat=51.397564&lon=0.900857 
Leysdown, north Kent
llamedos
07 January 2024 14:33:08
Good explanation there Darren and a timely reminder about the threat to tender plants under certain conditions. 
"Life with the Lions"

TWO Moderator
Karl Guille
07 January 2024 14:49:33

French Met. are giving snow in my location tomorrow, especially overnight. I just looked at the UKMO synoptic charts and they are showing a trough coming down the Channel. 
I would have thought the sea temp. too warm at 10.3C, but we'll see; there is sleet currently over the Cherbourg peninsular.

Originally Posted by: StoneCroze 



If the precipitation coincides with the lowest 850 hPa temps (currently predicted close to -10 on Monday night) we could get snow if a decent streamer develops!!  A more easterly flow would be colder on the ground but then we tend to lose the showers!
St. Sampson
Guernsey
ozone_aurora
07 January 2024 15:24:45

 
I would have thought the sea temp. too warm at 10.3C, but we'll see; there is sleet currently over the Cherbourg peninsular.

Originally Posted by: StoneCroze 


I wonder if there'd be any sporadic thunder?
Chunky Pea
07 January 2024 15:25:53

850s have only been around -6C so far today (varying between -5 and -7), 
Although people have rightly mentioned that the classic cold spells had 850s of similar, or even higher values, bear in mind they already had cold air at the surface - i.e. the thin "boundary layer" near the surface was colder than it is now. It's my experience that it takes -10 or lower to get snow near coastal areas (and even lower once you get past mid-Feb), but after a day or two of it you'll get away with higher 850s.

Originally Posted by: Retron 



One of the coldest nights of the 2010 cold spell, Christmas Day, (and over here at least) with temps down to the minus mid teens widely, had 850s of around only -3c, or higher, over the country.  

I have seen reports of snow though at Belmullet, right on the west coast of Ireland, with uppers of around -5c from long fetch W/NW flows. Fleeting snows very probably, that are most likely intensity induced. 
Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
doctormog
07 January 2024 15:29:06
A rather nice ICON 12z run to start the afternoon’s output:
https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/ICOOPEU12_168_1.png  
UserPostedImage
DPower
07 January 2024 15:29:18
06z run producing the coldest mean in the last four days with -850s down as far as the south midlands by t216. Fully expect to see this trend continue this afternoon. I would also expect to see the ecm continue its trend towards a colder solution. This model has been very poor this winter imho for our neck of the woods. would like to see more instability in the northerly flow but to far out to really get a handle on this just yet. Hoping to see a few flakes tomorrow although areas further south and east should fair better I think.
Chunky Pea
07 January 2024 15:34:32

A rather nice ICON 12z run to start the afternoon’s output:
https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/ICOOPEU12_168_1.png  
UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: doctormog 



Snow for you almost certainly. 
Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Retron
07 January 2024 15:35:47


850s have only been around -6C so far today (varying between -5 and -7), and as such it's not going to be especially cold.
Although people have rightly mentioned that the classic cold spells had 850s of similar, or even higher values, bear in mind they already had cold air at the surface - i.e. the thin "boundary layer" near the surface was colder than it is now. It's my experience that it takes -10 or lower to get snow near coastal areas (and even lower once you get past mid-Feb), but after a day or two of it you'll get away with higher 850s.

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 

One of the coldest nights of the 2010 cold spell, Christmas Day, (and over here at least) with temps down to the minus mid teens widely, had 850s of around only -3c, or higher, over the country.  

I have seen reports of snow though at Belmullet, right on the west coast of Ireland, with uppers of around -5c from long fetch W/NW flows. Fleeting snows very probably, that are most likely intensity induced.

Originally Posted by: Retron 

As I said, and as you quoted, once a cold spell has set in you can get away with higher 850s. And as I mentioned earlier in the week, down here (and pretty much uniquely in the British Isles) you can get snow at zero 850s and 540dam thickness - but only once the Continental boundary layer has extended across the Channel. This happened most notably in Feb 2005, but has happened at other times too.

Wind, incidentally, is the enemy of a shallow, cold boundary layer, as it mixes it out. It takes something truly special to have cold conditions persisting with a strong wind and, as we're going to see tomorrow, in the south an easterly is usually involved!

As for Ireland, many years back on the uk.sci.weather newsgroup, back in the 90s, there was a discussion about snow from the NW in Ireland. Someone, can't remember who, mentioned they'd seen rain falling on a western coast even though thicknesses were around 510dam and 850s were around -10C - the warm Atlantic modified the lowest layers enough to melt the snow on the way down.

Ideally we'd all be looking at the 1000-850 thickness, and the 925hPa temperatures, but they're a bugger to track down online... WeatherOnline was the only place that provided them, and their charts were very basic in comparison to the multicoloured splendour we're used to these days!
Leysdown, north Kent
Retron
07 January 2024 15:38:13

A rather nice ICON 12z run to start the afternoon’s output:
https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/ICOOPEU12_168_1.png  

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


Yes, no troublesome lows in the vicinity of Greenland throwing a spanner in the works - a nice clean transition, and everything further south than the 0z run as well.

Hopefully the improvement theme will continue with the other runs shortly!
Leysdown, north Kent
Brian Gaze
07 January 2024 15:38:29

Slightly OT. When I use the new look chart viewer on my mobile, the GFS charts nicely fill the screen. The other models are zoomed in close to the western Atlantic and I have to pan around. On the GEM i can't even pan, it's stuck on the western Atlantic

Up to a few days ago, all was fine and I've not tinkered with phone settings? Any techies out there to shed light?

 

Originally Posted by: Crepuscular Ray 



I'm hoping that problem is now fixed. I uploaded a patch for it at 15:36.
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Joe Bloggs
07 January 2024 15:41:16
Lovely ICON run 

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/ICOOPNH12_180_1.png 

Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

nsrobins
07 January 2024 15:48:20


Ideally we'd all be looking at the 1000-850 thickness, and the 925hPa temperatures, but they're a bugger to track down online... WeatherOnline was the only place that provided them, and their charts were very basic in comparison to the multicoloured splendour we're used to these days!

Originally Posted by: Retron 



https://www.weatheronline.co.uk/cgi-bin/expertcharts?LANG=en&MENU=0000000000&CONT=ukuk&MODELL=euro4&MODELLTYP=1&BASE=-&VAR=t925&HH=12&ZOOM=0&ARCHIV=0&RES=0&WMO=&PERIOD= 

Resolution not great but the parameters are still published.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Ally Pally Snowman
07 January 2024 15:48:57
Good update from the Met Office sticking with cold still. 

Monday 22 Jan - Monday 5 Feb
Through this period, there is an increased chance compared to normal of cold conditions along with the associated impacts from low temperatures, ice and snow. Frontal systems will probably move in from the west or southwest at times, bringing periods of rain or snow. Some drier, more settled interludes are also likely.
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Chunky Pea
07 January 2024 15:50:12

As I said, and as you quoted, once a cold spell has set in you can get away with higher 850s

As for Ireland, many years back on the uk.sci.weather newsgroup, back in the 90s, there was a discussion about snow from the NW in Ireland. Someone, can't remember who, mentioned they'd seen rain falling on a western coast even though thicknesses were around 510dam and 850s were around -10C - the warm Atlantic modified the lowest layers enough to melt the snow on the way down.

Ideally we'd all be looking at the 1000-850 thickness, and the 925hPa temperatures, but they're a bugger to track down online... WeatherOnline was the only place that provided them, and their charts were very basic in comparison to the multicoloured splendour we're used to these days!

Originally Posted by: Retron 



That's why I quoted you... to reinforce your point 😁

No doubt what you say is true about west coast Ireland snow, but intensity induced snow can and does occur under such conditions, but as I say, these would be fleeting, short lived occurrences. 

From the perspective of my location at least, snow from 850s close to or even at 0c tends to only happen if a negatively tiled front is either coming in from the SW or skirting close by to the south. Not a hope in hell of seeing snow with those sort of 850s under a more unstable, showery set up. Just dirty, cold rain that kills everything on impact. 
Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Retron
07 January 2024 16:17:41


Resolution not great but the parameters are still published.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Ahh, that makes me feel nostalgic! I find it odd that those parameters aren't widely available elsewhere, as they're handy.

FWIW, they all strongly support snow tomorrow across much of southern England, should precipitation fall: 925s of -4 or -5, 1000-850 thickness of 128 or below. That latter thickness is about as close as you can get to seeing where the boundary layer sits, although others may prefer different parameters!


From the perspective of my location at least, snow from 850s close to or even at 0c tends to only happen if a negatively tiled front is either coming in from the SW or skirting close by to the south. Not a hope in hell of seeing snow with those sort of 850s under a more unstable, showery set up. Just dirty, cold rain that kills everything on impact. 

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


It would be nice, assuming the deep cold from the north makes it far enough south, for it to eventually go out with one of those fronts you describe! A textbook warm front: starts off with snow, gradually fizzles into drizzle, then stops. That's what we had back in 2005 and 2018, both events with that very cold boundary layer mentioned above. I remember many occurrences of that in the 80s, too, but these days it's the devil's job to even get a cold boundary layer in the first place...

Meanwhile the models continue to roll out - GEM moves everything south, à la ICON, while GFS... well, it's being typically different. There's some very impressive WAA over eastern Canada compared to the 6z run, perhaps that might pump up the Greenland High a bit more later in the run?
Leysdown, north Kent
doctormog
07 January 2024 16:23:17
The GFS is okay (and cold) but not as impressive as the 12z ICON and GEM (and possibly the UKMO which looks impressive at 144 hr).

I suspect the GFS will be one of a few options at that time point (day 8 ) but may continue the cold for a while.

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