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NickR
  • NickR
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
Wednesday, November 13, 2013 10:27:27 PM

Apparently some people say there could be some snowflakes around at some point relatively soon.


Then again, some people say Sunderland isn't a dump.


Usual rules.


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
Gaz
  • Gaz
  • Advanced Member
Wednesday, November 13, 2013 10:46:10 PM

Apparently some people say there could be some snowflakes around at some point relatively soon.


Then again, some people say Sunderland isn't a dump.


Usual rules.

Originally Posted by: NickR 



Says it all 😉
Gary, Torquay, Devon. 85 Meters / 279 Feet ASL


Thunderstorms in 2013: 28th September 3.30am - 8.00am Storm that lasted over 4 Hours
Thunderstorms in 2013: 17th June 6.30pm. bright Lightning out at sea - Deep Bass Thunder
Thunderstorms in 2012: 11th August 10:30pm. bright Lightning - Deep Bass Thunder
Thunderstorms in 2012: 28th June 2:00am From Spainish Plume. 5 sec lightning flashes
Thunderstorms (Flickering Lightning) in 2012: 26th May 2:30 From Spainish Plume





Gooner
Wednesday, November 13, 2013 10:47:19 PM

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3601.png


Another idea from GFS deep into GFS


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


colin moffat
Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:27:46 PM


Apparently some people say there could be some snowflakes around at some point relatively soon.


Then again, some people say Sunderland isn't a dump.


Usual rules.


Originally Posted by: Gaz 



WHAT HAS SUNDERLAND GOT TO DO WITH THE MODEL OUTPUT DISCUSSIONSays it all ;-)

Originally Posted by: NickR 

Quantum
Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:53:06 PM


Apparently some people say there could be some snowflakes around at some point relatively soon.


Then again, some people say Sunderland isn't a dump.


Usual rules.


Originally Posted by: NickR 


I bet the best part of being a moderator are coming up with the satirical first posts in the MO thread  


 


Anyway, the 18Z GFS is a case of 'all roads lead to rome' in my oppinion. Even if the cold snap next week turns out to be a toppler, the stage is set for substantial northern blocking to occur subsequently, with the HP much better placed to retrogress to greenland. Therefore, I really don't think it matters if the cold spell does turn out to be transient, because it is probably just a taster anyway. Greenland blocks very rarely setup right on the first attempt, the key thing here is there will be another attempt and hopefully it will be sucessful!


 


The NAVGEM disagrees though, and has a solution much more akin to the ECM, if not superior. My temptation would be to throw in with the NAVGEM or ECM, purely because the GFS solution of taking a cyclone directly through central greenland while supporting a ridge in iceland and the midatlantic seems a bit contrived. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Stormchaser
Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:54:58 PM

http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/ecmimages/20131113/12/npsh500.144.png


I reckon even ECM underestimated the extent to which the Pacific Ridge looks to be poking into the Polar region.


In combination with Aleutian Ridges (just east of the date lien), it really makes a mess of the PV, and GFS is now frequent in showing the PV disintigrating by day 14 or so. The ridges act like boulders in a whirlpool, preventing the PV from winding up effectively - instead energy is thrown about, often to the mid-latitudes, and potentially the PV could 'shake itself apart' by that mechanism... we just need those ridges to be resilliant enough.




It's interesting to see what happens when you feed such ideas to CFS - whereas beforehand it was showing a raging zonal train to end the month, it now has this:


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/cfs/run1m/cfs-0-330.png?12


... followed by:


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/cfs/run1m/cfs-0-408.png?12


A Classic Channel Low


After an Atlantic breakthrough, things soon reload, peaking just before mid-December.


Many weeks ago, CFS was showing a lot of that for late November, but for some reason it then really backed off in favour of zonal conditions. To me that suggests that the model is over-reacting to new signals as and when they crop up.


 


Oh yeah forgot to add, JFF


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
NickR
  • NickR
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:55:32 PM



Apparently some people say there could be some snowflakes around at some point relatively soon.


Then again, some people say Sunderland isn't a dump.


Usual rules.


Originally Posted by: colin moffat 



WHAT HAS SUNDERLAND GOT TO DO WITH THE MODEL OUTPUT DISCUSSIONSays it all ;-)

Originally Posted by: Gaz 


Originally Posted by: NickR 


Sorry, I didn't realise this was a "no humour allowed" zone. 


Opening posts don't tend to get into model discussion. They just.. open the thread.


Just trying to keep things light from time to time. 



 


Re. the CFS - I have thought on occasion that it identifies something, and then shies away... but given that it identifies MANY possibilities at some point or another, could this not be a case of us finding a pattern when in fact there is none? (a general query really)


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
Quantum
Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:46:36 AM

Ive kept a few notes of my thoughts and something on the horizion was visible at 264h and by 216h it was becoming apparant a cold spell was likely. The ECM 240h is actually suprisingly useful, and even the GFS low res when used on multiple runs can detect hints at 264h. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Polar Low
Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:04:43 AM

"The Beast"


All coldies Bow to the Beast.


Including "S"      


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=192&mode=0&carte=1

Polar Low
Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:42:23 AM
Polar Low
Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:49:48 AM

The Beast shakes hands with the Arctic


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=192&mode=1&map=1&archive=0


would be some cold nights at the surface.


 

nsrobins
Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:05:39 AM

The synoptics continue to develop in a rather interesting fashion this morning.



I'm even starting to come round to the idea that many areas might actually see snow falling at some point next week, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Polar Low
Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:08:40 AM

 Also Neil the more I look at ecm at t240 the more I like it


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=240&mode=1&map=1&archive=0



The synoptics continue to develop in a rather interesting fashion this morning.



I'm even starting to come round to the idea that many areas might actually see snow falling at some point next week, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 

NickR
  • NickR
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:56:28 AM

Blizzards for a certain admin...

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rmgfs1504.gif
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rmgfs1503.gif



http://www2.wetter3.de/Animation_00_UTC_05Grad/192_24.gif


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
Gooner
Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:06:39 AM

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1621.png


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn15617.png


Wednesday is a bit chilly


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


squish
Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:14:23 AM
I don't believe daytime max's will be 0c/1c on Weds/Thurs for the Westcountry (unless it's snowing heavily). Interesting GFS run nonetheless....

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn16217.png 
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
some faraway beach
Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:18:57 AM


Back of an envelope calculations show approx. 520-525 decametre air IMBY on all 3 models next Wednesday.


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ukmo2.php?nh=0&ech=144&carte=1021


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=144&mode=1&map=0&archive=0


I like the low centred on the central Mediterranean on those UKMO and ECM charts at 144 hrs. I always associate rainfall in Italy with cold in the UK


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
GIBBY
Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:32:50 AM

Good morning. Here is this morning's take from me on the midnight outputs from GFS, UKMO, GEM, NAVGEM and ECM for today Thursday November 14th 2013.


All models are agreed that the weather between now and early next week will be changeable with average temperatures in winds between West and North. Today sees a rather chilly NW flow with sunny spells and scattered showers, these chiefly over the North and East and early in the day. A ridge crosses the UK tonight killing off any remaining showers and clear skies will result in a patchy frost. Milder air will be crossing the Northern periphery of a High pressure area to the SW and Friday and Saturday will become rather cloudy and benign as a result. By Sunday a front moving slowly down from the North will bring patchy rain through the day with Monday seeing another one. However, this second one on Monday will usher in much colder air behind it with winds swing Northerly with sunshine and showers developing with some snowfall on hills in the North and more widespread frost than of late overnight and inland.


GFS then intensifies the cold next week as winds veer NE in response to a pressure build to the NW. The result will be a North/South split developing with the North seeing very cold and frosty weather under clear skies while Southern areas close to Low pressure over NW Europe stay cloudy and cold with rain or sleet at times and snow over the hills. The pattern remains similar for the rest of the run with Southern areas likely to continue to see very unsettled and rather cold weather with rain at times while the North see the best of any drier spells. Late in the run drier weather is shown to extend to many areas as High pressure settles over Northern and Eastern Britain.


UKMO today closes it's run with a showery and chilly NW airflow on Tuesday veering to an even colder NE'ly on Wednesday. A mix of sunshine and showers are likely especially near Western and later Eastern coasts and these could be wintry on the hills generally and perhaps to lower elevations for a time in the North. The NW shows signs of settling down soon after the term of the run.


GEM today shows a North/South split developing next week. The early days will see northerly winds and wintry showers giving way to cloudier skies across the South with rain or sleet at times while the North tuns steadily more settled but with frost and fog problems becoming widespread with time.


NAVGEM shows a North then NE flow next week too with some rain, sleet or wet snow over the hills of the South while Northern regions slowly become less settled as High pressure tries to build in from off the Atlantic. It would be generally cold over all areas through the week.


ECM today quickly removes a cold North then NE flow away from the UK as we move through next week quickly shifting the emphasis away from wintry showers into one of cold and quiet weather with widespread frost and fog problems as the week moves on and into next weekend.


The GFS Ensembles show a much tighter pack this morning well supportive of a colder spell next week before the trend to lessen it's grip over the UK is shown though never becoming mild. Rain at times is as usual shown scattered through the run today and some of this will no doubt fall as snow at times over higher ground, especially in the North. The operational run was a warmer outlier in it's later stages.


The Jet Stream is show to be ridging High over the Atlantic and across Iceland at the moment. Through the coming days this sinks steadily South on it's current trajectory before turning directly North to South over the UK early next week to eventually set up a much more Southerly position in a week or so time.


In Summary today a colder spell is still looking very much on the cards. The general theme appears to be a few days of Northerly winds with wintry showers to be followed by a swing of winds to the NE as pressure builds to the NW of the UK. This would change the distribution of precipitation towards the South and East while Northern and Western areas become dry, cold and possibly frosty and foggy. However, through my years of experience ECM this morning has come up with the most likely prognosis that I think will more likely happen as High pressure builds across the UK following the Northerly and bring a nationwide cold and foggy period, something I hinted at last night. having said that the majority of output this morning does not show this so the colder and more wintry solutions do hold some credibility currently.


The one word of caution I would use though for those salivating over these wintry synoptics is not to expect too much especially if you live on low ground and in the South. Sea surface temperatures are still relatively high and we are surrounded by them. As a result any precipitation that occurs is likely to be of the watery variety despite cold enough uppers for snow (see link below). The air at sea level will warm surface air sufficiently for this and also given that we are still only in mid November we could of done with these synoptics in January and February rather than now as I feel there is a good chance that they could be wasted on delivering rain and sleet rather than what many want.


http://www.thebeachguide.co.uk/sea-temperature


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Gooner
Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:57:46 AM

http://expert-images.weatheronline.co.uk/daten/proficharts/en/2013/11/14/basis00/ukuk/rart/13112000_2_1400.gif


http://expert-images.weatheronline.co.uk/daten/proficharts/en/2013/11/14/basis00/ukuk/rart/13112006_2_1400.gif


JFF JFF JFF JFF


A few hours of snow for some lucky people


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:17:24 AM

I am genuinally not excited by this upcoming cold spell at all. Unless you live on high ground in the north or the low ground of Scotland then there will be no snow. Its just looking like a typical spell of weather for mid/late November. The patterns longer term are more interesting.

wallaw
Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:19:49 AM


Nothing settling of course, but would be great to get an early taste of winter.


 


OT I know, but just a quick point on Sunderland, beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder, for me Sunderland is the Athens of the North


Ian


Stockton-on-Tees

Gooner
Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:23:22 AM


I am genuinally not excited by this upcoming cold spell at all. Unless you live on high ground in the north or the low ground of Scotland then there will be no snow. Its just looking like a typical spell of weather for mid/late November. The patterns longer term are more interesting.


Originally Posted by: ManUtdMatt1986 


Agreed , let's be honest the snow from this mornings GFS will be gone on the next run , for me, just to get back to some single digits with the possibility of frosts is a start


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Ally Pally Snowman
Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:24:16 AM

Look how low the pressure is over southern Europe and this is the ECM ensemble Mean! Prolonged cold spell looking likely now.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Reem2401.html


 


GEM also looking blocked and cold for the forseeable!


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rgem1921.html


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rgem2401.html


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Ally Pally Snowman
Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:27:34 AM



Nothing settling of course, but would be great to get an early taste of winter.


 


OT I know, but just a quick point on Sunderland, beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder, for me Sunderland is the Athens of the North


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Apart from over a foots worth that is!!!!!!


http://www2.wetter3.de/Animation_00_UTC_05Grad/192_24.gif


 


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:28:24 AM

There simply isn't enough cold air to tap into thanks to the AO being positive

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