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Rob K
Thursday, November 28, 2013 2:55:49 PM

But pressure over Nuuk bears no reflection on conditions over Uk

Originally Posted by: ballamar 


I wouldn't say that. It's hard (by no means impossible of course) to get a decent sustained cold spell in the UK if there is low pressure over Greenland. If there is also low pressure over Tromso then things look extremely bleak for cold in the UK.


 


Of course, being at the SW edge of Greenland, Nuuk is not necessarily a great representative of a Greenland block. E.g. see Feb 1991 where there is a Greenland high but Nuuk is at  barely 1000mb... http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/archive/ra/1991/Rrea00119910207.gif


But then of course there was a whacking great 1045mb high over Scandinavia.


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
ballamar
Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:04:43 PM

But pressure over Nuuk bears no reflection on conditions over Uk

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


I wouldn't say that. It's hard (by no means impossible of course) to get a decent sustained cold spell in the UK if there is low pressure over Greenland. If there is also low pressure over Tromso then things look extremely bleak for cold in the UK.

Of course, being at the SW edge of Greenland, Nuuk is not necessarily a great representative of a Greenland block. E.g. see Feb 1991 where there is a Greenland high but Nuuk is at barely 1000mb...http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/archive/ra/1991/Rrea00119910207.gif 
But then of course there was a whacking great 1045mb high over Scandinavia.

Originally Posted by: ballamar 



Great example there
Gandalf The White
Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:36:02 PM


Try this.. http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/MT2_Nuuk_ens.png  UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: moomin75 

Looks like pretty solid support for the vortex to reform there. Can't see anything other than a brief cold blip from that.

Originally Posted by: ballamar 

Of course that does not represent pressure over Scandinavia

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


No, but this one does.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/MT2_Oslo_ens.png


And although pressure goes high right at the end of the run, it's pretty much low pressure all the way in the semi-reliable time-frame.


Originally Posted by: Roonie 


In fact that shows the transition to a Scandi trough and then a further transition to a potential Scandi High.


Bearing () in mind that we have a better chance of cold with either deep low or decent high pressure over Scandi, that graph delivers potential on both criteria.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Russwirral
Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:31:11 PM


Quite marked differences on the 12z GFS at 168hrs, in a good way. Definitely more amplification of the High in the Atlantic, ridging more towards Greenland, and quite a lot of WAA up the west coast of Greenland.


Could this be a good run ahead?


 


Edit: Or perhaps not at 174. Looking like the high is going to topple pretty sharply.


Originally Posted by: moomin75 


 


Looks like its not... too much energy in the jet, and it blasts away any cold air...  Though - i must say - at this stage, its not a lost cause and could quite easily wobble back towards the WAA- Greenland high solution.


moomin75
Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:32:03 PM

Yep, a poor 12z for coldies....Massive difference at 180hrs.


Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
Arbroath 1320
Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:42:55 PM

Yep, a poor 12z for coldies....Massive difference at 180hrs.

Originally Posted by: moomin75 



Yes, coldies with a nervous disposition should avoid looking at the FI charts beyond t192!
GGTTH
doctormog
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:02:14 PM
One run, one model, re. the GFS 12z op run.The potential cold snap/spell/blip is still well into FI territory. Even were we to expect it to come off there are still likely to be blips and chopping and changing with each run. It could be rock solid to 48hrs out and then disappear or it could come and go but actually materialise. Past experiences have shown that either scenario (or indeed neither) is possible.

I'd not be surprised if there was still a cluster of cold GFS ensemble members around the 5th to the 7th of December. Indeed I would not be surprised in the slightest to see the ECM op run stay cold at that time point.

In fact at this range not much would surprise me (except if we have seen the last hints of a proper northerly at the end of next week).
Chiltern Blizzard
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:02:51 PM

Yep, a poor 12z for coldies....Massive difference at 180hrs.

Originally Posted by: Arbroath 1320 

Yes, coldies with a nervous disposition should avoid looking at the FI charts beyond t192!

Originally Posted by: moomin75 


The potential cold is/has been over a week away.... well in FI territory.  Anyone with experience of model-watching shouldn't be surprised at this.... indeed major changes are often seen at half this timeframe.  No one should be getting "excited" at t192+ charts - it's a receipe for disappointment.


Andrew


Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
The Beast from the East
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:03:46 PM
Razor blade time again! The ensembles were never on board to be fair. Nothing in the Meto update to suggest a cold spell either
"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Whether Idle
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:04:13 PM
There is a great deal to be said, if you are not time-rich, for only bothering to view and spend a lot of time discussing charts at 144 hours or less. The Met O is not infallible but tends to be IMHO the model to watch. The GFS may be having a wobble or it may have latched in on to a clearer signal as we get close to December 7th. The eye candy of recent FI runs may be restricted to the GEFS.
Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Medlock Vale Weather
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:06:21 PM

There is a great deal to be said, if you are not time-rich, for only bothering to view and spend a lot of time discussing charts at 144 hours or less. The Met O is not infallible but tends to be IMHO the model to watch. The GFS may be having a wobble or it may have latched in on to a clearer signal as we get close to December 7th. The eye candy of recent FI runs may be restricted to the GEFS.

Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 


Well we all know the GFS has a mild bias so things may change again, hopefully. ECM coming up later so will be interesting what it shows.


Alan in Medlock Valley - Oldham's frost hollow. 103 metres above sea level.
What is a frost hollow? http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/Frost-hollow.htm 
doctormog
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:11:11 PM

Razor blade time again! The ensembles were never on board to be fair. Nothing in the Meto update to suggest a cold spell either

Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 



You can get tablets for premature extrapolation you know 😝

Settle down. It may or may not come off but it is miles away in meteorological terms. The ensembles wereon board to the extent that over 70% of members at over a week out showed a snowy scenario here on most recent runs (including the 06z GFS). At that time scale that is impressive. Even if the next day or two shows the cold snap disappearing these things happen all the time at this range.
four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:19:53 PM

You can get tablets for premature extrapolation you know

Originally Posted by: doctormog 



Why thankyou Doctor  


Rob K
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:27:41 PM
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1802.png 

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3482.png 

I have to say, the mild nights of the last couple of days have been quite nice when I've been on the bike, so I wouldn't say no to that!
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
LA2B MeridFlowEuro09
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:36:12 PM
Very Benign GFS and UKMO 12z and 00z Model Outputs, We keep away from the Northerlies, and the High either ridges across and either way we get the High keep grip of uK Weather.

Still waiting to see what 12z ECMWF suggests, the 00z ECMWF run was a winter proper Northerly for Dec 5th to 7th.

The General situation with the more Northerly West to East Jetstream flow, going over many at least a good amount of areas of Anticyclonic High's are still very much not leaving the places what interesting look at the current weeks model Forecast Discussions.

I am not too interesting in boring Weather over UK and NW W Europe.

Keep thinking that maybe it can surprise us with last minute changes, enjoy whatever you wish.

We got Comet ISON to look forward to today anyway.
Climate is warming up, Scotland and N Ireland and North England still often gets some Winter frost, ice and snow, November to March, but the SE and South UK including S Central England and Wales, together with the West and North through the year, they sometimes get more rain than London and S SE England, where some longer dry fine spells without much heavy rain is seen every year.

The North Atlantic Sea often gets some much Colder Wintry conditions from November to March Months, and Mild SW and South winds tend to be more frequent over the East and SE of North Atlantic Sea, as the Azores High tends to stay in charge. 

With this warmth and heat, the Central and South UK has become mostly free of snow and frost.
Retron
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:55:25 PM
warrenb
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:58:13 PM
Well when the op and the control go completely different ways and both become outliers to the ENS then something is afoot.
doctormog
Thursday, November 28, 2013 5:59:34 PM

After this morning's laughably cold outlier, I invite you all to play round two of "Spot the Outlier!":

http://www.meteociel.com/cartes_obs/gens_display.php?ext=1&x=306&y=141&ville=Londres 
http://www.meteociel.com/cartes_obs/gens_display.php?x=306&y=141&run=12&ville=Londres&runpara=0&type=3&ext=1 

Originally Posted by: Retron 



Indeed, from one extreme to the other. The ensemble mean picture overall is not much different in terms of t850s at least (and still has 70% of runs going for snow here on the period of the 7th and 8th). So overall GFS op run aside not much has changed...yet.
Gooner
Thursday, November 28, 2013 6:10:26 PM
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3482.png  I have to say, the mild nights of the last couple of days have been quite nice when I've been on the bike, so I wouldn't say no to that![/quote]


I would......bloody rubbish, hoping it is an outlier of sorts


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
Thursday, November 28, 2013 6:12:08 PM
Indeed, from one extreme to the other. The ensemble mean picture overall is not much different in terms of t850s at least (and still has 70% of runs going for snow here on the period of the 7th and 8th). So overall GFS op run aside not much has changed...yet.


Indeed


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


moomin75
Thursday, November 28, 2013 6:25:48 PM

Putting aside the wild outliers, actually if anything, the clustering around 7-9 December is even more pronounced for a cold snap on the 12z ensembles.


It is just a "snap" at present, 3 or 4 days and it's gone, but is still on the ensembles at the moment.


Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
Arcus
Thursday, November 28, 2013 7:15:55 PM
GFS 12z Op is very similar to the 00z GEM in the evolution toward the end of next week.

The usual white noise exists within the ensembles and between the models at that range, which is to be expected. I would expect a somewhat clearer picture to evolve by the end of the weekend.
Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
GIBBY
Thursday, November 28, 2013 8:09:04 PM

Good evening. Here is the report from the 12 noon outputs from GFS, UKMO, GEM, NAVGEM and ECM for tonight Thursday November 28th 2013.


All models illustrate a spell of anticyclonic gloom coming to an end briefly as a cold front crosses SE across the British Isles tomorrow bringing cleaner and fresher air to all areas by tomorrow evening. Winds will strengthen markedly from the NW and could carry a few showers to NE Britain for a time before Saturday sees decreasing winds with quite a pleasant day for many before cloudier weather spills down from the NW to land us back to square one on Sunday with largely cloudy and non-descript weather to start next week with temperatures remaining close to the seasonal average as High pressure maintains a ridge across Britain from the West. Frost and fog would be relatively limited in amount through this spell with Friday and Saturday night's the only nights at substantial risk.


GFS then shows a weak series of fronts cross SE soon after midweek with a little rain ahead of a colder phase, especially across NE areas while elsewhere stays dry and probably quite bright and only a little colder. By the weekend wet and windy weather spreads first across Northern Britain and then on to all areas as a deep Low crosses East to the North of Scotland and down over NW Europe. The cold front would bring a short spell of cold NW winds and potentially wintry showers of sleet and snow in the North before a ridge of High pressure brings a change to increasingly milder weather with any rainfall becoming more and more confined to Northern areas as Southern Britain sees some potentially very mild weather for a time.


UKMO today shows High pressure well under control of the weather still over the UK with a strong ridge across Britain from a centre over mid Atlantic. The quiet and benign weather of early in the week looks like persisting with perhaps a few more brighter interludes by day and clearer interludes at night to promote a little more in the way of frost and fog.


GEM shows a front moving South midweek with some occasional rain for a time before clearer conditions move down from the North and then another band of more coherent rain spreads down behind on a more active front and this time is followed by a spell of cold NW winds with wintry showers and night frosts to end the run.


NAVGEM too shows a couple of fronts moving SE through the middle of next week, the second of which brings a spell of cold and showery weather with sleet or snow showers over all high ground and frost at night.


ECM tonight shows a brief spell of rain midweek behind which a cold NW flow brings some wintry showers to the North and East before High pressure slides over from the West keeping things cold but bringing dry weather with frost and fog. By Day 10 it looks like Northern areas will see milder air moving in off the Atlantic while Southern areas stay flat calm under High pressure.


The GFS Ensembles show a short colder interlude towards the back end of next week before the general trend is for thing to return to average by the end of the period. The current High pressure and precipitation less weather that we are currently experiencing  will most likely continue for the next week or so before it is shown to give way to somewhat more unsettled conditions from many members later. Tonight's mild ending shown by the operational was a big mild outlier at the end of the run.


The Jet Stream tonight shows the flow remains to the North of the UK before it is directed SE over the UK later next week. thereafter, the flow becomes indeterminate and hard to find a pattern from with many options possible.


In Summary tonight there is still a week of High pressure based weather to wade through with benign and cloudy conditions with just a brief window of colder and fresher weather for 36-48hrs from Friday. Later next week still looks like turning cold across the UK with the threat of some sleet or snow in parts of the North especially but most output still indicate the North flow providing the cold being shunted East quite quickly and replaced by High pressure with frost and fog possibilities late in the period. It should also be noted that there still is a good chance that some milder weather will return over the UK late in the period as High pressure may become flattened to the South.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Gooner
Thursday, November 28, 2013 8:19:01 PM

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/run/gensnh-0-1-348.png?12


Im sure many would be happy with the way the Control pans out


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


cowman
Thursday, November 28, 2013 8:22:48 PM
Thanks Martin.we look foreword to your output here on TWO.
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