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Gooner
18 December 2013 22:43:52

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121818/gfsnh-0-324.png?18


Another deep area of LP to start the New Year


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


picturesareme
18 December 2013 23:22:02

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121818/gfsnh-0-324.png?18


Another deep area of LP to start the New Year

Originally Posted by: Gooner 



Sod that... What happens over canada and Alaska is of more interest 😉 and it gets better as it runs deep deep into fantasy land.

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=384&mode=0&carte=1 

Though it all starts around a day before New Year's Eve...

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=276&mode=0&carte=1 
19 December 2013 00:26:11


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/archive/ra/1963/Rrea00119630119.gif  if only


Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 




Hi all, I've been looking at this sort of chart in here for quite a while now.... I am no expert, so could someone give a quick but concise synopsis on what I am looking at weather wise at ground level? I.E what the colours, and numbers actually represent please? As I think I have been misinterpreting some of the data on this type of chart.........
Thanks
VSC

Originally Posted by: VIRTUAL STORMCHASER 


That chart gives you two measures, the surface level pressure (SLP) and the 500hPa temperatures.  500hPa is approximately 18,000 feet up.


As you will know, I think, air expands as it warms, so warmer air equates to higher pressure.  When you see orange colours on the 500hPa chart it tells you there is, in effect, an 'upper high'.  On that chart at the surface (SLP) there is also a high pressure cell.  When you read people commenting on 'false highs' over Greenland it is because the SLP indicates a high pressure cell but there is no support for it at 500hPa, with only cold air.  For an effective block you want both an upper and a surface high - the upper one acts as the block, "the boulder in the stream" that blocks and diverts the jet and LP systems.


That chart doesn't tell you much about what's going on at the surface, other than some clues from wind direction. Ideally you want to look at the 850hPa chart for temperatures (that's about 5,000 feet) and thickness values.  If you want to check whether there is a chance of snow you look at the 500-1,000hPa thickness and want values generally below 525dam.  For better guidance look also at how cold the lowest layer of the atmosphere is, 850-1,000hPa (effectively 5,000 feet down to near the surface).  In that lowest layer you need values below 130dam.


On that chart for 19th January:


500-1,000hPa thickness: http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/reana/1963/archives-1963-1-19-0-2.png


850hPa temp: http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/reana/1963/archives-1963-1-19-0-1.png


That's sub-zero at the surface but the relationship between the airmass above and surface temperature depends on lots of factors.


Hope this helps


 


 

Originally Posted by: colin46 



Thanks, just what I needed..... also, at what point does high become low and vica versa, I mean what is the pressure reading cusp between high/low pressure..?
Cheers and thanks in advance..
VSC
Gandalf The White
19 December 2013 00:51:15



Thanks, just what I needed..... also, at what point does high become low and vica versa, I mean what is the pressure reading cusp between high/low pressure..?
Cheers and thanks in advance..
VSC

Originally Posted by: VIRTUAL STORMCHASER 


Hi.  It's not a matter of the pressure reading, it's about the nature of the pressure system.  For example you can have a low pressure cell with pressure of 1,020 mb, for example in an area of predominantly high pressure.  Similarly you can have a weak high pressure of 1,015 mb in an area of predominantly low pressure. 


High pressure means only that the air is sinking, which pushes up the pressure at the surface.  Low pressure means that the air is rising, lowering the pressure at the surface.


There's a perfect example here: http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121818/gfsnh-0-168.png?18


Look at the area over western Kazakstan (just east of Turkey) - there's a shallow low pressure with central pressure a little below 1,025mb


Here: http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121818/gfsnh-0-60.png?18


there are two surface highs of around 1,020mb over Canada


 


OK?


 


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


19 December 2013 03:06:50

[quote=VIRTUAL STORMCHASER;560925]

Thanks, just what I needed..... also, at what point does high become low and vica versa, I mean what is the pressure reading cusp between high/low pressure..?
Cheers and thanks in advance..
VSC

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Hi.  It's not a matter of the pressure reading, it's about the nature of the pressure system.  For example you can have a low pressure cell with pressure of 1,020 mb, for example in an area of predominantly high pressure.  Similarly you can have a weak high pressure of 1,015 mb in an area of predominantly low pressure. 


High pressure means only that the air is sinking, which pushes up the pressure at the surface.  Low pressure means that the air is rising, lowering the pressure at the surface.


There's a perfect example here: http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121818/gfsnh-0-168.png?18


Look at the area over western Kazakstan (just east of Turkey) - there's a shallow low pressure with central pressure a little below 1,025mb


Here: http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121818/gfsnh-0-60.png?18


there are two surface highs of around 1,020mb over Canada


 


OK?


 


 

[/

Thanks again chaps, everyday is a school day on here, if you need it.... brilliant!
Retron
19 December 2013 03:33:19
The 12z EPS control has gone back to zonal mush throughout - generally westerlies and SW'lies all the way to the 2nd January. A shame, as I was hoping yesterday's 0z was onto something with its Scandinavian High!
Leysdown, north Kent
Chiltern Blizzard
19 December 2013 07:34:07
More tentative positive signs from GFS if wintry weather is what you're looking for... Nothing imminent though so detail is indicative rather than predictive of actual weather.

Firstly, the zonality is very cold - at t300 is an ice day for the inland south and there's quite a snowstorm at t384.

Secondly, the polar vortex weakens noticably as we get to the new year (no bright purples or black colours apparent), enabling an exit from relentless zonality we've seen and will see for weeks.

Andrew
Rendlesham, Suffolk 20m asl
Gooner
19 December 2013 07:57:26

More tentative positive signs from GFS if wintry weather is what you're looking for... Nothing imminent though so detail is indicative rather than predictive of actual weather.

Firstly, the zonality is very cold - at t300 is an ice day for the inland south and there's quite a snowstorm at t384.

Secondly, the polar vortex weakens noticably as we get to the new year (no bright purples or black colours apparent), enabling an exit from relentless zonality we've seen and will see for weeks.

Andrew

Originally Posted by: Chiltern Blizzard 


A colder run as you say


Xmas Eve showing 4c  Xmas Day 3c  Boxing Day 2c


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Gooner
19 December 2013 08:00:57

http://expert-images.weatheronline.co.uk/daten/proficharts/en/2013/12/19/basis00/ukuk/rart/13122406_2_1900.gif


JFF JFF


Xmas Eve could have a wintry taste for some


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2013121900/gfsnh-0-126.png?0


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


The Beast from the East
19 December 2013 08:06:46

Interesting GFS and UKMO, but ECM remains poor sending it too far north


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
The Beast from the East
19 December 2013 08:08:40

GEM loaded with potential


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gem/runs/2013121900/gem-0-240.png?00


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Maunder Minimum
19 December 2013 08:11:13


More tentative positive signs from GFS if wintry weather is what you're looking for... Nothing imminent though so detail is indicative rather than predictive of actual weather.

Firstly, the zonality is very cold - at t300 is an ice day for the inland south and there's quite a snowstorm at t384.

Secondly, the polar vortex weakens noticably as we get to the new year (no bright purples or black colours apparent), enabling an exit from relentless zonality we've seen and will see for weeks.

Andrew

Originally Posted by: Gooner 


A colder run as you say


Xmas Eve showing 4c  Xmas Day 3c  Boxing Day 2c


Originally Posted by: Chiltern Blizzard 


The latest run continues the FI theme of a massive Siberian High pushing into the deep Artic and displacing the PV.


If this comes to pass (and it is in deep FI), it will herald a change from zonality, to cold zonality at the very least.


New world order coming.
Arcus
19 December 2013 08:12:06
Yes, an interesting GFS Op, and has some support from its ensembles for the more southerly track to these Lows. Not much support in the other models it would appear, so it will be interesting to see if GFS drops or develops the idea over the next few runs.
Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
Diverboi
19 December 2013 08:25:01

Not sure if this link has been posted before, but a very useful way of checking the current wind speeds not only locally but globally


http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/850hPa/orthographic=-8.91,31.71,795 


If you click Earth in the bottom left corner it opens a settings menu where you can change the heights.


 

GIBBY
19 December 2013 08:40:22

Good morning. Here is the report on the NWP output for today's midnight outputs for today Thursday December 19th 2013.


All models show the run up to Christmas as unsettled and potentially quite stormy at times as deep depressions continue to run East over or just to the North of the UK. Spells of heavy rain will be commonplace especially later tomorrow and Saturday in the South. Christmas Eve also looks like it could be very wet and windy too. All other times will see a mix of sunshine and showers with wintry showers over the hills at times as air turns briefly colder under these events.


GFS shows Christmas Eve as a very unsettled day with deep Low pressure straddling the UK with each centre providing the risk of prolonged and heavy rain and it looks like it would be cold enough for snow on Northern hills. Christmas Day and boxing Day remain very similar with unstable and sometimes strong Westerly winds providing plenty of opportunity for heavy rain and wintry showers. This weather type continues up to and over the New Year with temperatures near to or a little below average.


UKMO shows an intense depression just to the North of Scotland on Christmas Eve with strong Westerly winds and rain clearing to brighter or clearer spells and wintry showers with some snow on Northern hills.


GEM maintains deep Low pressure over the UK throughout the Christmas week and in the days thereafter with heavy rain and strong winds never far away and with temperatures borderline for snow on hills at times.


NAVGEM looks a lot like UKMO for Christmas Eve with the following two days of Christmas following suit with deep Low pressure over or close to the UK maintaining strong winds and heavy rain for many with some wintry type showers in between.


ECM shows very unsettled weather over Christmas with rain at times and snow on the hills though it has removed the damaging winds scenario over Christmas on previous output. Nevertheless there is still plenty of wind and rain shown to wash down the Christmas festivities.


The GFS Ensembles maintain a very average setup temperature wise made up of an oscillating sine wave pattern by all members with fast changing air types bringing rain areas across from the West followed by showers, wintry on hills. Christmas itself continues to be modelled as a very wet period especially in the South.


The Jet Stream continues to be programmed to be crossing the UK strongly from the West for the next week, slipping South of the UK at times over Christmas. It then resets slightly further North across the UK in the run up to the New Year, still very strong.


In Summary there is nothing new to report this morning with all models continuing to predict very volatile conditions with spells of rain and gales alternating with brighter and more showery conditions with some snow on the hills. The risk of severe gales over Christmas remains though the operational runs have backed off a little from this today. For those hoping for a pattern change as we look towards the New Year may find that they may have to wait rather longer from this morning's extended model outputs.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Polar Low
19 December 2013 09:02:37

Thanks Martin, glad you dropped the word mini T


 

RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
19 December 2013 09:04:55

Another day and zonal all the way as far as the models can see. Although there is a suggestion that the jet will push slightly further south after Christmas and then we might be in the cooler, if not very cold air, for longer with each passing wave. If you want to experience some lying snow then hiking or skiing in the northern hills is an option.


Rob
In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.
Polar Low
19 December 2013 09:18:38

Not so sure about that gfs longer term shows sighns of change quite a bit different this morning at 500


http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~fxg1/ECMWF_0z/hgtcomp.html


 



Another day and zonal all the way as far as the models can see. Although there is a suggestion that the jet will push slightly further south after Christmas and then we might be in the cooler, if not very cold air, for longer with each passing wave. If you want to experience some lying snow then hiking or skiing in the northern hills is an option.


Originally Posted by: RobN 

Polar Low
19 December 2013 09:27:21
The Beast from the East
19 December 2013 09:50:25

ECM ens very poor


no sign of any cold weather


http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/vijftiendaagse/index.php


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Scandy 1050 MB
19 December 2013 09:53:30


Not so sure about that gfs longer term shows sighns of change quite a bit different this morning at 500


http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~fxg1/ECMWF_0z/hgtcomp.html


 



Another day and zonal all the way as far as the models can see. Although there is a suggestion that the jet will push slightly further south after Christmas and then we might be in the cooler, if not very cold air, for longer with each passing wave. If you want to experience some lying snow then hiking or skiing in the northern hills is an option.


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


Originally Posted by: RobN 


Yes good to see the pressure at the pole increasing, inline with Gavin P's video the other day. Hopefully this is a trend that will increase. Perhaps the first tentative sign of a change as we go into the new year.

Stormchaser
19 December 2013 10:00:15

GFS has come up with a different phasing of energy that sees the PV spread out all over the place; some of it deposited over the UK, some of it heading across Siberia and so on.


This allows a blocking high to become sustained across the Pole, driving high latitude blocking which makes for interesting snow potential for the UK that seems to gradually increase as the run progresses.


 


Shame that ECM isn't sniffing that idea at the moment - it has the energy from the U.S. tracking across more slowly than GFS and phasing far more effectively for bombogenesis to occur i.e. very intense low pressure systems developing very rapidly. The day 5 offering is a 932mb low centred not far NW of the UK!


 


UKMO seems to have produced the usual halfway house scenario in terms of LP intensity and energy phasing. It even has that secondary low coming off the U.S. on day 6 as a stronger feature than GFS but weaker than ECM has it... in fact quite a bit weaker, such that it is leaning far more towards GFS on that. I reckon that's a positive in terms of how the pattern could develop from there in terms of the high latitude blocking 


 


...but most positive of all is what UKMO models for the Polar region:


http://www.meteociel.fr/ukmo/archives/2013121900/UN144-21.GIF


That ridge of high pressure from Asia is far more impressive than GFS and ECM have it, and to my eyes offers a quicker route to establishing some high latitude blocking... if it verifies.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
The Beast from the East
19 December 2013 10:08:27

06z so far similar to the 00z


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Rob K
19 December 2013 10:18:00

GFS joining the <935mb party for Xmas Eve. http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1141.png



ECM has it too: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1201.gif

Whereas UKMO is 30mb less deep: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rukm1201.gif

But the upper pattern and shading is almost identical, so is it just a case of the UKMO charts missing a lot of isobars? There's a suspicious-looking "hole" in the middle of the low.


 


Edit: also you can see the rsik of a secondary low racing across the UK: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1261.png


GFS doesn't really develop it on this run but it is something to watch out for...


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Gooner
19 December 2013 10:58:34


06z so far similar to the 00z


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


A milder run than the 00z , not much to start jumping about at


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


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