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Matty H
08 January 2014 07:01:31
As long as any snow holds off until at least the night of the 16th then I don't care. I have to drive from Bristol to Blackpool on that lunchtime and will not be happy at all if there's any chance of it being screwed up 😒

Fairly confident it won't be at this stage, but who knows. Still miles out in forecasting terms re accuracy on things like precip
Ally Pally Snowman
08 January 2014 07:11:39
Quite good output this morning then.

ECM is stunning should be plenty of snow from day 6 onwards

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1442.html 
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1682.html 
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm1922.html 
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm2162.html 

Gem also stunning! No end in sight either!

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rgem1561.html 
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rgem2401.html 


UKMO also great!

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rukm1441.html 

GFS is also fantastic this morning. Happy days!

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/MT8_London_ens.png 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
nsrobins
08 January 2014 07:36:28

Morning campers - rise and shine


Not much to add to Darren's excellent summary and although not the 'where did that come from' scenario (it was as Darren said increasingly being hinted at especially in the ECM suite), IF we do get a three day easterly blast our of this then many people will be asking some searching questions both of the models and their own judgement perhaps.


Still, let's not get too hasty - a week is an age in this business.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
jondg14
08 January 2014 07:46:48


Would love to hear from Darren/Retron tomorrow am. This is looking good though early days yet. Darren let us know your thoughts please.

Originally Posted by: Retron 


I've been pretty quiet recently (largely due to going back to work), but suffice to say things are going as expected. The pattern change on the 9th is still there and, I must say, was an excellent spot by the ECM-15 almost two weeks ago. Sustained mild weather was never an option (beyond 5% or so) after the change and as mentioned last week the choice then became whether we'd have an average spell or a colder one.
The only change since the weekend is that the colder option has become more and more likely, with it now being the odds-on favourite. There's still a small but not ignorable chance of it staying near average, but for the time being I'd go for the cold option.
There are a few things to watch out for now that cold is looking likely:
  • How long will it last? Nobody knows, but a spell of several cold days is now looking probable.

  • Will it snow? Almost certainly, but of course it's too far out to be specific. In the meantime, the GFS op has a prolonged rain-to-snow scenario for southern England, which would be interesting for us southerners!

  • Will the pattern be self-sustaining? The models are undecided but going on recent years we'll need to watch out for trough disruption to the west. (There are several informal terms for this, "sliders", "lows going under the block" and so on). Every trough that disrupts to the west gives an extension to the cold.

  • The upper high is part of the puzzle. It's related to the trough disruption (which is itself related to the jet) but for a quick glance the location of that upper high is important. If it sinks SE'wards it becomes harder - but not impossible! - to sustain a cold spell.

  • The 528 line is less useful than usual. When we get a feed from the east during winter the lower levels tend to cool faster, meaning you get a cold, low-dewpoint "wedge" of air advected ahead of the colder upper air. This only serves to increase the likelihood of snow rather than rain. The effect of course lessens the further north you are as the sea has a greater modifying effect.


So, to sum up - watch for trough disruption (or sliders, lows under the block, lows getting shredded etc). Watch for the upper high near Scandinavia. And don't be at all surprised to see the models "wobble" more than once, as features too small to be resolved at the moment get picked up nearer the time (aka "spoiler lows", "shortwaves" etc).
The overall pattern is one which should excite cold weather fans and it will if nothing else bring a completely different feel to things than we've had so far this winter.
And as a final thing, it's the ECM which did the best with this. First to pick up the pattern change around a fortnight ago and the ensembles have been more consistent than its rivals. GEM deserves a mention too, as it's been pretty good at picking up the signal for an easterly. G(E)FS has performed relatively poorly and it's no wonder that work is currently being rushed along on a new version of the model. We'll see the results of that in April. It's also a reminder that although ensembles are the way to go, they're only as good as the base model driving them - if the base model is performing poorly, you'll get massive swings from the whole ensemble suite. Much as we've seen over the last 48 hours from GEFS!

Originally Posted by: Sasa 



Great post Darren thanks.

Superb output overnight. As you say this hasn't appeared from nowhere as ECM has been hinting it for a while. ECM lost a few points at the start of December when it suggested a blocked pattern but it's reminding us now that it's the best model.
winterof79
08 January 2014 07:48:06

Something for both North and South divides


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2014010800/ECU0-216.GIF?08-12


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2014010800/ECU0-192.GIF?08-12


Remarkable how close to this time last year this may occur.


 


Jason
Essan
08 January 2014 07:49:11


Morning campers - rise and shine


Not much to add to Darren's excellent summary and although not the 'where did that come from' scenario (it was as Darren said increasingly being hinted at especially in the ECM suite), IF we do get a three day easterly blast our of this then many people will be asking some searching questions both of the models and their own judgement perhaps.


Still, let's not get too hasty - a week is an age in this business.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 



I shall be having serious words with Sod


But yes, there are now good signs of some colder air coming in from the east next week - though whether it's any more than the usual cold, grey, dross in these parts remains to be seen


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Sasa
  • Sasa
  • Advanced Member
08 January 2014 07:53:21



Would love to hear from Darren/Retron tomorrow am. This is looking good though early days yet. Darren let us know your thoughts please.


Originally Posted by: Retron 


I've been pretty quiet recently (largely due to going back to work), but suffice to say things are going as expected. The pattern change on the 9th is still there and, I must say, was an excellent spot by the ECM-15 almost two weeks ago. Sustained mild weather was never an option (beyond 5% or so) after the change and as mentioned last week the choice then became whether we'd have an average spell or a colder one.


The only change since the weekend is that the colder option has become more and more likely, with it now being the odds-on favourite. There's still a small but not ignorable chance of it staying near average, but for the time being I'd go for the cold option.


There are a few things to watch out for now that cold is looking likely:



  • How long will it last? Nobody knows, but a spell of several cold days is now looking probable.

  • Will it snow? Almost certainly, but of course it's too far out to be specific. In the meantime, the GFS op has a prolonged rain-to-snow scenario for southern England, which would be interesting for us southerners!

  • Will the pattern be self-sustaining? The models are undecided but going on recent years we'll need to watch out for trough disruption to the west. (There are several informal terms for this, "sliders", "lows going under the block" and so on). Every trough that disrupts to the west gives an extension to the cold.

  • The upper high is part of the puzzle. It's related to the trough disruption (which is itself related to the jet) but for a quick glance the location of that upper high is important. If it sinks SE'wards it becomes harder - but not impossible! - to sustain a cold spell.

  • The 528 line is less useful than usual. When we get a feed from the east during winter the lower levels tend to cool faster, meaning you get a cold, low-dewpoint "wedge" of air advected ahead of the colder upper air. This only serves to increase the likelihood of snow rather than rain. The effect of course lessens the further north you are as the sea has a greater modifying effect.


So, to sum up - watch for trough disruption (or sliders, lows under the block, lows getting shredded etc). Watch for the upper high near Scandinavia. And don't be at all surprised to see the models "wobble" more than once, as features too small to be resolved at the moment get picked up nearer the time (aka "spoiler lows", "shortwaves" etc).


The overall pattern is one which should excite cold weather fans and it will if nothing else bring a completely different feel to things than we've had so far this winter.


And as a final thing, it's the ECM which did the best with this. First to pick up the pattern change around a fortnight ago and the ensembles have been more consistent than its rivals. GEM deserves a mention too, as it's been pretty good at picking up the signal for an easterly. G(E)FS has performed relatively poorly and it's no wonder that work is currently being rushed along on a new version of the model. We'll see the results of that in April. It's also a reminder that although ensembles are the way to go, they're only as good as the base model driving them - if the base model is performing poorly, you'll get massive swings from the whole ensemble suite. Much as we've seen over the last 48 hours from GEFS!


 


Originally Posted by: Sasa 


 


As always an excellent summary and really well done for spotting this so early on. I knew you were onto something and your response is much appreciated.


This mornings output seems to increase the chances of some serious cold/snow for the southerners and eastern Britain.


Kingston Upon Thames
idj20
08 January 2014 08:02:54


ECM 96 is looking very good.


WAA over the UK, Arctic High nosing southwards, jet on a sliding SE'wards track, and a trough over western Siberia feeding a deep cold pool into Scandinavia.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm961.gif


 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 




I have to admit being taken by surprise when I trawled through the models this morning whie I was putting together my Cloud Master forecast and thought to myself "now, where did that come from?". It's not so much the set up but how there are good agreement across the board - and normally I'm quite reserved about this kind of thing.
Goes to show how one just cannot place too much faith in the models at 144 hours and beyond, only two days ago they were all showing the continuation of the raging zonality theme - and now look at it all this morning. Even my usual yr.no source picked up on it (scroll down to Wednesday) and normally it would take a lot to do that: http://www.yr.no/place/United_Kingdom/England/Folkestone_Harbour/long.html
 
But for now, I'm just glad to see the back of this stormy stuff - even though it is going to get rather windy along the South Coast tomorrow morning.


Folkestone Harbour. 
Maunder Minimum
08 January 2014 08:08:30

Well, looks as though my view that zonality would persist through January is going to be wrong (not that I am unhappy about that).


The question then is why the sudden change (assuming winter does commence next week, which now looks increasingly likely)?


Guess it is to do with the pressure rise over the Pole and the recent collapse of the vortex into north America - that has opened the door for us. No SSW this time, but I do think the change has started in the Stratosphere, with a gradual warming over the Pole leading to the eventual collapse of what was a very extreme and cold vortex. Just goes to show that the vortex being stronger and colder than usual, is no predicter of its longevity - we have had winters, especially in the 1990s, where an average vortex has kept mild zonality going all winter long.


New world order coming.
Charmhills
08 January 2014 08:17:08

I must admit the models are starting to look interesting at long last in terms of a wintry outcome.


Still a week away yet and could all change or go wrong......


Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.
Rob K
08 January 2014 08:19:49
Well well well - perilously close to cross-model agreement for at least a brief easterly.

Thanks Darren for that excellent summary. And hopefully, if we do get a cold spell, it might finally put to bed this idea that when the models are showing no end to the current weather type, it means the whole month is set in stone! We saw it in December when everything looked dry and boring for the whole month (and look what happened!) and we might just see it in January, when everything looked mild and zonal for the whole month(to some...)

Of course personally I'd take the wet and windy stuff over a drab grey easterly, but then I don't live on a floodplain or under a big tree! However if it could produce some snow I'd have a different view - but easterlies have to be fairly special to do that here.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
KevBrads1
08 January 2014 08:21:11

Well, looks as though my view that zonality would persist through January is going to be wrong (not that I am unhappy about that).
The question then is why the sudden change (assuming winter does commence next week, which now looks increasingly likely)?
Guess it is to do with the pressure rise over the Pole and the recent collapse of the vortex into north America - that has opened the door for us. No SSW this time, but I do think the change has started in the Stratosphere, with a gradual warming over the Pole leading to the eventual collapse of what was a very extreme and cold vortex. Just goes to show that the vortex being stronger and colder than usual, is no predicter of its longevity - we have had winters, especially in the 1990s, where an average vortex has kept mild zonality going all winter long.

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 



As I said recently, zonality will last as long as the conditions will allow it. "Once zonality sets in, it's hard to shift" is a nonsense. In some years, it takes a large shift, other occasions, it is only a small tweek.

Zonality is like a piece of string, no one knows for certain how long it is or in this case it will last.
MANCHESTER SUMMER INDEX for 2021: 238
Timelapses, old weather forecasts and natural phenomena videos can be seen on this site
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NDJF
08 January 2014 08:27:18

some excitment around this morning regarding model output for next week, see BG has mentinon possibility on home page, when the Met reference it - its time to tell the kids......(5 times bitten...) Fingers crossed, only want one spell and then happy to roll into summer...thats spell should last 2 months mind!

Stormchaser
08 January 2014 08:33:57

Funny old models... they were increasing the heights to the NE with each new run, but also finding a stronger Atlantic jet to drive the Atlantic at us full-throttle, leaving us with a massive rainfall event for the middle part of next week.


Now they've suddenly changed the jet energy such as to slow down an upstream trough considerably, and that's allowed the higher heights to take control of the situation, sending the UK trough into Europe and potentially forcing upstream troughs to dow the same, though hopefully while introducing some instability and hence snow showers to the UK...


 


Obviously it's far too early to call specifics, and in fact when there is a big model 'jump' like that it lowers confidence in the output considerably - but if future runs continue to model the upstream trough in the same sort of way, then confidence will rise markedly... and forecasts will then respond, although there will always be some sites/media sources that jump on the bandwagon at the first sniff of a change.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

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Keep Calm and Forecast On
Scandy 1050 MB
08 January 2014 08:35:02

Well, looks as though my view that zonality would persist through January is going to be wrong (not that I am unhappy about that). The question then is why the sudden change (assuming winter does commence next week, which now looks increasingly likely)? Guess it is to do with the pressure rise over the Pole and the recent collapse of the vortex into north America - that has opened the door for us. No SSW this time, but I do think the change has started in the Stratosphere, with a gradual warming over the Pole leading to the eventual collapse of what was a very extreme and cold vortex. Just goes to show that the vortex being stronger and colder than usual, is no predicter of its longevity - we have had winters, especially in the 1990s, where an average vortex has kept mild zonality going all winter long.

Originally Posted by: KevBrads1 

As I said recently, zonality will last as long as the conditions will allow it. "Once zonality sets in, it's hard to shift" is a nonsense. In some years, it takes a large shift, other occasions, it is only a small tweek. Zonality is like a piece of string, no one knows for certain how long it is or in this case it will last.

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


Seems like in the pre 2007 mild sets of winters the Azores high was responsible for propping up zonality, since 2007 when the jet changes we seem to have pressure more readily willing to build to the north and east whereas most winters from 88 onwards (some notable exceptions as always of course like 91, 95), pressure seemed to build always over France or spain. So when zonality waxed and waned, pressure kept building in the wrong place keeping us mild always dragging up air from the south or west. What has caused the change isn't for the MO output forum to dicuss,but would be fascinating to find out and is probably a combination of a number of factors.


Back to MO and perhaps this forthcoming spell may be remembered as one of those 'where did that easterly come from!' type of events. Looks interesting currently, not extreme cold yet but doesn't take much to cool down the continent at this time of year. Some of the best snowfall events happen in not too extreme cold events, one to watch for the next set of runs for any further developments. 


 


 

The Beast from the East
08 January 2014 08:37:07


 


Still, let's not get too hasty - a week is an age in this business.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Indeed. We've been burnt too many times. I think the all time classic pete tong moment was in Feb 2007 or 2009. There was cross model agreement for a major Easterly at +72, and yet somehow it all went horribly wrong. Many other ocassions since, most recently last November


However this potential cold snap has nothing to do with the SSW, so this is a "homegrown" bonus event, if it comes off!


Remember as the great Ian Brown says, "the train is coming only when you can see it"


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Maunder Minimum
08 January 2014 08:37:09

Well, looks as though my view that zonality would persist through January is going to be wrong (not that I am unhappy about that). The question then is why the sudden change (assuming winter does commence next week, which now looks increasingly likely)? Guess it is to do with the pressure rise over the Pole and the recent collapse of the vortex into north America - that has opened the door for us. No SSW this time, but I do think the change has started in the Stratosphere, with a gradual warming over the Pole leading to the eventual collapse of what was a very extreme and cold vortex. Just goes to show that the vortex being stronger and colder than usual, is no predicter of its longevity - we have had winters, especially in the 1990s, where an average vortex has kept mild zonality going all winter long.

Originally Posted by: KevBrads1 

As I said recently, zonality will last as long as the conditions will allow it. "Once zonality sets in, it's hard to shift" is a nonsense. In some years, it takes a large shift, other occasions, it is only a small tweek. Zonality is like a piece of string, no one knows for certain how long it is or in this case it will last.

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


This entry from Chionomaniac in yesterday's Strat thread on Netweather is worth looking at - he is very good at explaining the background to the changes we see on the ground:


http://forum.netweather.tv/topic/78161-stratosphere-temperature-watch-20132014/page-47#entry2887694


 


New world order coming.
Gooner
08 January 2014 08:37:54


Something for both North and South divides


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2014010800/ECU0-216.GIF?08-12


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2014010800/ECU0-192.GIF?08-12


Remarkable how close to this time last year this may occur.


 


Originally Posted by: winterof79 


Indeed , last year was the 18th , this year not that far off


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


roger63
08 January 2014 08:44:11

Daily report GFS ens at 0h.ratio Zonal:Anticyclonic circulation( previous days in brackets.


144h 10:90 (70:30,90:10,60:40,90:10,90,10)


240h 20:80 (40:60,75:25,65:35,65:35,70:30)


360h 75:25  (65:35,65:35,55:45,90:10,80:20)


Dramatic shift towards cold in GEFS since just yesterday(which of course means that  dramatic switch back is still possible!)


At 144h 90% ENS have a Scandi/Iceland  HP in place.This generally persists for at least 5 days until around 18th Jan.


By 360h however, in the space of another 5 days GFS has the Atlantic roaring back.


How cold and snowy it turns out to be is dependent on exact position and alignment of the HP.The GEM solution is a beauty.


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=234&mode=0&carte=0


 


Anyhow were not  over the first hurdle yet ,but if the short cold spell produces the odd blizzard I wont be so worried about the rest of the winter!.


 


 

nsrobins
08 January 2014 08:44:59

http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/Data/PLUIM_06260_NWT.png


OP very much in the minority milder cluster long range. Control and majority members go cold/very cold Dutch coast from day 6.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
some faraway beach
08 January 2014 08:45:20


Well, looks as though my view that zonality would persist through January is going to be wrong (not that I am unhappy about that).


The question then is why the sudden change (assuming winter does commence next week, which now looks increasingly likely)?


Guess it is to do with the pressure rise over the Pole and the recent collapse of the vortex into north America - that has opened the door for us. No SSW this time, but I do think the change has started in the Stratosphere, with a gradual warming over the Pole leading to the eventual collapse of what was a very extreme and cold vortex. Just goes to show that the vortex being stronger and colder than usual, is no predicter of its longevity - we have had winters, especially in the 1990s, where an average vortex has kept mild zonality going all winter long.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


I've mentioned a couple of times on here the possibility that raging cross-Atlantic storms might sow the seeds of their own demise. All that energy has to be fuelled by heat from the sea, with the result that eventually sea-surface temperatures cool to the extent there's no longer enough of a temperature difference to generate storms powerful enough to reach us. Once that happens, then the possibility of pattern change emerges in the areas through which the storms were previously surging.


The bottom animation shows how the storms of the last few weeks have dramatically cooled the Atlantic on our latitude to an anomalously cool state:


http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/enso_update/gsstanim.gif


Of course, it might be pointless to speculate, and it's all down to unfathomable chance, but I'd like to think that God doesn't play dice with the Model Output thread.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Maunder Minimum
08 January 2014 08:52:35


http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/Data/PLUIM_06260_NWT.png


OP very much in the minority milder cluster long range. Control and majority members go cold/very cold Dutch coast from day 6.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Looks like next week will be cold, which then begs the question as to how long the cold spell will last. The key is how quickly the vortex regathers itself and whether it comes under fresh attack. The other aspect is how well entrenched the cold becomes in Europe - if a decent cold block builds up, the Atlantic can be held off, even if the vortex comes back - I keep thinking back to the 81-82 winter, when premature forecasts of the end of the cold spell were proved wrong on several occasions as the Atlantic lows sheared against the cold block, causing trough disruption and snow, instead of a return to mild and wet.


New world order coming.
Gooner
08 January 2014 08:53:05


http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/Data/PLUIM_06260_NWT.png


OP very much in the minority milder cluster long range. Control and majority members go cold/very cold Dutch coast from day 6.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


Impressive


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


stophe
08 January 2014 08:54:14


http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/Data/PLUIM_06260_NWT.png


OP very much in the minority milder cluster long range. Control and majority members go cold/very cold Dutch coast from day 6.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


pretty sure that was yesterdays afternoon run.look at the start date.

warrenb
08 January 2014 08:54:17


http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/Data/PLUIM_06260_NWT.png 
OP very much in the minority milder cluster long range. Control and majority members go cold/very cold Dutch coast from day 6.

Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Impressive UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 



It is the 12Z ensemble

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