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Brendon Hills Bandit
05 January 2015 13:41:12
With all this talk of the jet just being too strong and potentially scuppering our chances for cold I've been wondering, just why is it so strong?

I know the jet is driven by the temperature contrast between polar regions and lower latitudes. So the temperature contrast must be quite big.Why is this? Is the north pole colder than usual, or the equatorial regions warmer? Just was wondering what would need to change for the jet to be weaker I suppose.

220m asl, edge of Brendon Hills
Stormchaser
05 January 2015 13:51:39


Interesting GEFS 6z today. 


http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/datmdlout.aspx



Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


 


As well as the long-term signal, there's been a jump in the snow row for 11th January. There does seem to be a trend for the SW flank of the strong Atlantic trough to reach a little further SW, providing a brief window for a snow showers in the unstable airflow.


That's about the best we can do as far as the next 10 days is concerned.


 


There still seems to be problems with the MJO data being displayed on the NOAA site at the moment... stuck with the ECM and UKM output from two days ago, while the GEFS output has gone AWOL.


Obviously they're still running (else we'd have critical data shortages), just not visible.


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Quantum
05 January 2015 13:58:21

Ensembles analysis. 324hr that is 18th January.


High pressure close to UK (cP): IIIIII


Total: 6


High pressure close to UK (inversion): IIII


Total: 4


Mid-atlantic High (cP/A): III


Total: 3


Greenland high (cP/A): III


Total: 3


Azors high (mT): IIII


Total: 4


Icelandic Vortex (mT): II


Total 2


Hope index = 6+4+3+3/6+4+3+3+4+2 = 72%


Hope index continues to rise, as the models strongly trend towards the cold spell. However Gandalf is right, the nature of the cold spell being suggested is closer to what we had before the new year than anything desperately cold and snowy. The dominating solution now is HP close to the UK with a weak easterly feed, Kent is the favoured spot to see snow now. 


However there are still some solutions that invoke a slicer low and a retrogression to convert the very weak scandi into a greenie.


 


 


 


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
05 January 2015 14:17:31

Since we don't get the full EPS unfortunately I have to do this. Nevertheless



So I have used a very crude method to determine whether the EPS are zonal or blocked, if they are zonal the air-mass temperature variation is more significant than the diurnal temp variation, wheras in blocked conditions the reverse is true, the exception to this rule is when the temperature is both cold and flat which indicates inversion conditions and is categorized as blocked.


Anyway crude as it may be it does give some indication of the transition period which is late on the 12th at the earliest or early on the 17th at the latest, and probably somewhere around the 15th. 


By the 17th we have the cold spell with the mean dropping below 5C, and most of the EPS runs keep us in blocked conditions with very few returning to zonal. 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
05 January 2015 15:03:46

For the GEFS similar chart.



Given we have full ensembles and upper air temp graphs this is hardly necessary, however I did it so a direct fair comparison can be done to the EPS. It is largelly similar, although the GEFS seems less inclined to have all its members go blocked, although most do by the 16th/17th. The date is similar to that of the EPS


If one were to make a bet on the start of the cold spell, then the 16/17th + a few days lag is a good way to go.


 


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
nsrobins
05 January 2015 15:21:40


If one were to make a bet on the start of the cold spell, then the 16/17th + a few days lag is a good way to go.


 


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


Q have a browse in the media thread. There is no impending cold spell according to MetO and after many burnt offerings from the NWP I know who I believe.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Quantum
05 January 2015 15:24:43


 


Q have a browse in the media thread. There is no impending cold spell according to MetO and after many burnt offerings from the NWP I know who I believe.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


I don't know what to say, its not what I see on the EPS and GEFS, the metoffice models might suggest something completely different, but then I don't have access to those models so can't comment.


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Brian Gaze
05 January 2015 16:40:08

GFS12z says shows why it pays to be cautious:



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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Saint Snow
05 January 2015 16:46:00


GFS12z says shows why it pays to be cautious:



Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


 


IOIWA


 



Martin
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David M Porter
05 January 2015 16:50:48


 


I don't know what to say, its not what I see on the EPS and GEFS, the metoffice models might suggest something completely different, but then I don't have access to those models so can't comment.


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


It could be that the model output that we have access to is perhaps barking up the wrong tree wrt what happens later in January, but there again the Met Office themselves have occasionally got longer range forecasts wrong as well.


Perhaps if the GFS sticks to its guns and the likes of ECM et al get on board as the second half of January gets nearer, we may see the MetO alter their outlook somewhat. Still a long way to go before we even reach mid-January however.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Snow Hoper
05 January 2015 17:07:51

As Brian has highlighted, a really crap GFS 12z run. Although i guess its just another take on the possible change of pattern, or at least a breather before the crap returns.


 


Going to war over religion is like killing each other to see who has the better imaginary friend.


Home : Thorndon, Suffolk.
nsrobins
05 January 2015 17:09:08


 


It could be that the model output that we have access to is perhaps barking up the wrong tree wrt what happens later in January, but there again the Met Office themselves have occasionally got longer range forecasts wrong as well.


Perhaps if the GFS sticks to its guns and the likes of ECM et al get on board as the second half of January gets nearer, we may see the MetO alter their outlook somewhat. Still a long way to go before we even reach mid-January however.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


Yes a very long way to go if the 12Z GFS OPs are to be believed. Another swing away from a cold spell - we await the suite.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Brian Gaze
05 January 2015 17:13:01

12z GFSP is also poor.


http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/datmdlout.aspx



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
JACKO4EVER
05 January 2015 17:14:08
Yes, let's look at the full ENS, but I would hazard a guess that a UK high would be the best bet before a return to zonality.
Fothergill
05 January 2015 17:17:52

Zonality doesn't skip a beat on the GFSP.



I expect the Met Office will be right, as usual, with the best us getting being a toppler or a UK high. GFS in leading us up the garden path with deep FI cold charts shocker.

doctormog
05 January 2015 17:21:06
So, not much change today? A period of rather unsettled weather followed by colder/cooler conditions for a time at least. I suspect this picture will be shown on the ensemble data once again. Quite a consistent pattern really. No "big freeze" imminent but then again I don't think that was ever on offer.

What could be more of note may be some of the storms systems near our shores in a few days.
Stormchaser
05 January 2015 17:26:16

Actually the GFSP 12z op run has a heavy snow event for the south on Sunday 18th followed by disruption of the Atlantic trough as heights rise to the NE. It then blows that away, but this is far-FI we're talking about so it has little significance aside from the continued signal for a more amplified pattern.


GFS also has the more amplified pattern but it leads to a UK/Europe block, cold at the surface in the UK (continental feed, first from the east then more south but circling around from the east).


 


It's all rather finely balanced and we know how little faith we can place in GFS, or indeed any model, beyond about 5 days range, particularly when trying to handle amplified patterns.


Still no ECM, UKM or JMA MJO updates to work with so still unable to comment on the likelihood of the amplification being upgraded or downgraded - but the Met Office outlooks suggest that at least one of those models remains less keen; I'm fairly sure they place little faith in the GEFS and CFS output unless there is a strong indication that they should do otherwise.


 


Anyway, I hope I've successfully balanced out the blunt, one-sided one-liner posts for the time being.


Edit: but I do agree that high pressure dominating across the UK seems to be the most prominent signal today and is the current 'safe bet'.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Retron
05 January 2015 17:29:17


Zonality doesn't skip a beat on the GFSP.


Originally Posted by: Fothergill 


That'd be a "bank" run. Widespread snow:


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/runs/2015010512/gfs-2-276.png?12


followed by more snow:


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/runs/2015010512/gfs-2-300.png?12


 


 


Leysdown, north Kent
nsrobins
05 January 2015 17:41:12

 


Anyway, I hope I've successfully balanced out the blunt, one-sided one-liner posts for the time being.


Edit: but I do agree that high pressure dominating across the UK seems to be the most prominent signal today and is the current 'safe bet'.


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 


I haven't seen too many one-liner one-sided posts today, James, unless I'm looking at the wrong forum?

The control goes with the OP but some of the members take the high further North.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
nsrobins
05 January 2015 17:56:34

Pert 4 the pick for me of the 12Z OP ENS.
At least we're seeing some candy, although ultimately it is likely to be unavailable for consumption.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Brian Gaze
05 January 2015 18:18:20

GEFS12z showing the cool down and then a possible warming trend towards the end.



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Nordic Snowman
05 January 2015 19:11:19

I know GFSP is taking over GFS on the 14th but is there any verification stats to know how well the model has performed?


Will be interesting to see how it performs vs GFS as there are subtle but vital differences within the high resolution time frames.


Bjorli, Norway

Website 
Brian Gaze
05 January 2015 19:17:47


I know GFSP is taking over GFS on the 14th but is there any verification stats to know how well the model has performed?


Will be interesting to see how it performs vs GFS as there are subtle but vital differences within the high resolution time frames.


Originally Posted by: Nordic Snowman 


Here you go Mike:


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS/html/new_acz5.html


In the NH the existing GFS is outperforming it. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Nordic Snowman
05 January 2015 19:25:26


 


Here you go Mike:


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS/html/new_acz5.html


In the NH the existing GFS is outperforming it. 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Thanks Brian


Interesting. For the period 21st Dec to Christmas, it was shockingly bad... and the stats have confirmed what I suspected that the current GFS has performed slightly better (since I have been paying more attention to the models again).


Bjorli, Norway

Website 
roger63
05 January 2015 19:28:21

Yes, let's look at the full ENS, but I would hazard a guess that a UK high would be the best bet before a return to zonality.

Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 

   


A step back for coldies as GEFS at 360h  has virtually no cold members as opposed to 50% at 0h.HP seems to be headed for azores or over  uk which chimes with  with metos more settled option (but not cold) late in January.    

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