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Brian Gaze
12 January 2016 07:43:53

John some of the periods have beem longer my point is I think its a battle lost here, let's accept it and begin the next chase.

If the Strat boys are right, then it won't be 4 weeks of zonality.


Originally Posted by: Shropshire 


Seems a fair assessment of the favoured outcome at the moment but I would say there's still a lowish a chance of colder conditions hanging on for longer.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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Gusty
12 January 2016 07:47:58

I'm afraid I think we are going to have to accept the sinking of the High and energy going over the top, hopefully the High can be far enough North to prevent copious rainfall for the NW.

Recent history suggests on average 4 weeks longevity from the beginning of such zonality...

Originally Posted by: Shropshire 


Agree Shropshire. The cold may hold on two or three extra days and give one or two snowy surprises but longer term analysis would suggest an atlantic return by day 8/9. 


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
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doctormog
12 January 2016 07:50:43
Yes, that's the form horse although the 4 weeks part is just guesswork and conjecture, even more so given the disparity in the models at only day 4 or 5. The UKMO really is a curious (and consistent) option yet again.

Anyway the next few days look increasingly chilly.
Robertski
12 January 2016 07:51:25


 


Agree Shropshire. The cold may hold on two or three extra days and give one or two snowy surprises but longer term analysis would suggest an atlantic return by day 8/9. 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


 


That would be the horse to back, but to suggest it will be another 4 weeks of Atlantic driven zonality, when the atmosphere is in such a chaotic state, is folly.

Andy Woodcock
12 January 2016 08:06:00


 


 


That would be the horse to back, but to suggest it will be another 4 weeks of Atlantic driven zonality, when the atmosphere is in such a chaotic state, is folly.


Originally Posted by: Robertski 


Not folly it's learning from experience!


Andy Woodcock
Penrith
Cumbria

Altitude 535 feet

"Why are the British so worried about climate change? Any change to their climate can only be an improvement" John Daley 2001
Retron
12 January 2016 08:23:49

Ninja post - ECM continues to signal a return to mild stuff by days 9 and 10, but before then - cold!



Leysdown, north Kent
Whether Idle
12 January 2016 08:32:49


 


Agree Shropshire. The cold may hold on two or three extra days and give one or two snowy surprises but longer term analysis would suggest an atlantic return by day 8/9. 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


I agree that the cold is likely to have gone by day 9.  So, we are then looking at a colder spell that will commence around Thursday (t48/ day 2) and continue Until between day 7 GFSwise, or possibly as far as 9 if the UKMO 144 is correct. I will not be focussing on the breakdown though.  Far too much detailed fun in the shorter term for me.


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Solar Cycles
12 January 2016 08:48:47
I have to disagree with those saying the block won't hold post 9 days, for me the UKMO has been the only model that's been consistent in its outlook whilst the other two have been all over the place.
Steve Murr
12 January 2016 08:51:14
If anyone wants to see how epic & accurate the UKMO can be ive just outlined the Jan 13 performance over on the other side to show that perhaps many over there - as well as here are making to many assumptions about day 6-10....
S
Solar Cycles
12 January 2016 08:52:42

If anyone wants to see how epic & accurate the UKMO can be ive just outlined the Jan 13 performance over on the other side to show that perhaps many over there - as well as here are making to many assumptions about day 6-10....
S

Originally Posted by: Steve Murr 

Flogging a dead horse springs to mind Steve, for me it's been the only consistent model for the last few days.

GIBBY
12 January 2016 09:14:27

HERE IS MY LATEST ANALYSIS USING DATA SUPPLIED BY THE NWP OUTPUT COVERING 5 OF THE WORLDS MOST POWERFUL WEATHER COMPUTERS ISSUED AT 09:00 ON TUESDAY JAN 12TH 2016


THE CURRENT GENERAL SITUATION Low pressure lies over the North Sea today with a strong NW flow across the UK backing Westerly and decreasing tonight as Low pressure and frontal troughs arrive from the West across the UK tomorrow.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn001.gif


CURRENT SNOW FORECAST AND FREEZING LEVEL OVER THE UK The freezing level across the British Isles will lie around 1000m or 4000ft today and tomorrow with some snowfall in the form of showers on hills and mountains above around 2000-2500ft


http://www.snow-forecast.com/maps/dynamic/uk


http://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_gif/DATA/cursnow.gif


MODELS-2 WEEK HEADLINE Rain or wintry showers at first. Becoming colder and drier with frost and fog patches likely next week.


THE GFS JET STREAM FORECAST The main theme of the Jet Stream today shows the Jet Stream continuing to stream East across France over several more days before it changes to flow South across the UK by the weekend and start to next week. This lasts as well for several days before the flow gradually returns to a more normal West to East flow to the North of Scotland from the middle and end to next week.


http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=jetstream


GFS OPERATIONAL The GFS Operational Run today shows a slow progression away from the current rather cold and unsettled weather as Low pressure slowly moves off to the East by the weekend allowing a strong ridge to cross the UK from the West with cold and frosty conditions. Then next week a slow return to less cold weather following a period of rain or snow moves slowly East over the UK followed by a return to mild SW winds, strong at times and rain at times towards the North and West in particular with some drier spells as well.


GFS CONTROL RUN The theme of the Control Run shows a similar sequence of events through the period with just small variances of timings. The main message is that the rather cold and showery conditions currently and the fine cold weekend soon gives way to Atlantic fronts next week with rain preceded by snow in places leading us into a much more changeable second half to the period with windy and mild weather with rain at times alternating with some dry and cooler conditions behind the fronts bringing the rain as High pressure to the South and Low to the North is maintained.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1441.gif


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn3841.gif


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=0&ech=144&mode=0&carte=0


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=0&ech=384&mode=0&carte=0


UKMO The UKMO model today is again much more robust and resolute in maintaining a cold theme across the UK well into next week as it shows the High pressure cell both further North and holding back the Atlantic fronts to the West. the resultant conditions will be cold conditions continuing across all areas with some wintry showers near eastern coasts and sharp overnight frosts developing for all inland areas.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rukm1441.gif


THE FAX CHARTS The Fax Charts show complex Low pressure clearing away slowly East late in the week but leaving a legacy of chilly North winds and weak troughs moving South over the UK with cold weather with wintry showers especially near coasts continuing well into the weekend.


http://www.weathercharts.org/ukmomslp.htm#t120


GEM GEM this morning teams with the GFS theme of events across the next 10 days as the cold Northerly airflow until the weekend gives way to High pressure, cold and frosty weather over the weekend and then a slow retreat of High pressure away to the SE allows milder SW winds to strengthen across the UK with some rain largely across the North and West while the South looks likely to stay largely dry.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rgem2401.gif


NAVGEM NAVGEM is broadly similar in theme to GEM and GFS too with the same sequence of cold North winds and then calm, cold and frosty weather slowly giving way next week to milder SW winds as the High pressure topples away to the SE.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rnvg1681.gif


ECM ECM today is unmoved in it's support to the general theme shown by the majority of output this morning although the breakdown to the eventual return of milder SW winds is a messy one and could result in a day or two of raw weather across the UK early next week with a messy mix of rain and snow around before the SW winds strengthen and push any residual cold air away by the middle and end of next week as High pressure is pulled to the SE of the UK.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Recm2401.gif


ECM 10 DAY MEAN The 10 day mean chart shows High pressure likely to lie to the South or SE of Southern Britain in 10 days time with milder conditions having spread to all areas. Pressure is unlikely to be very low so the South and East could be largely dry and benign but stronger SW winds across the North and West will more than likely lead to some rain at times here.


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Reem2401.gif


NOTABLE TRENDS & CHANGES FROM PREVIOUS RUNS The models continue to show milder air penetrating the UK next week from the Atlantic with the exception still of UKMO.


31 DAY HISTORICAL VERIFICATION STATS FOR GFS, UKMO & ECM The verification Statistics of GFS, UKMO and ECM show at 24 hours ECM ahead at 99.6 pts with UKMO and GFS at 99.4 pts respectively. At 3 days ECM is leading with 97.5 pts to UKMO's 96.6 pts while GFS lags behind at 96.1 pts. At 5 days ECM leads with 89.6 pts to UKMO at 87.6 pts then GFS at 87.1 pts. Then at 8 Days ECM still leads at 66.5 pts over GFS's 63.5 pts. Finally at Day 10 ECM is ahead of GFS at 49.4 pts to 47.1 pts respectively.


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day1_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day3_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day5_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day8_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day10_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png


MY THOUGHTS There is a major stand-off in the models this morning which has now been going on for several days. The battle on the face of it is a very one sided one with the majority of all the output maintaining their stance on returning milder Atlantic SW winds across the UK from early next week. In among all this we have UKMO which shows much more resilience to any such breakdown illustrated by the rest of the output and had it been any other model other than UKMO with the exception of ECM I would more easily discount it but as it is and it's persistence and consistency in showing it's pattern I am not so sure. So dealing with the here and now first we have a rather cold and breezy period of weather still between now and the weekend to get through when some windy, rather cold and showery weather persists with some snow on the hills in the North extending to all areas for a time later in the week. Then pressure is shown to build across the UK at the weekend nudging the Northerly flow away over the North Sea and leaving the UK under High pressure with very frosty weather for a time. Then the favoured options shown by the vast majority of output shows a return to milder SW winds and rain at times, chiefly across the North and West whereas the South and East look like becoming largely dry and benign in lighter SW winds. Then as hinted at earlier we have UKMO isolated in showing High pressure further North and angled such that would hold back the Atlantic and maintain cold and frosty weather for longer and while winds remain NE in the SE some wintry showers could be maintained for longer there. It's difficult to ascertain how things would evolve longer term with UKMO as we only have access up to day 6 but using their extended outlooks issued daily I would suggest that it too would gradually fall into line with the milder theme albeit much slower to establish it across the UK than the rest shows. So a good few days of rather cold weather with showers, wintry in places then an undetermined length of period of frosty weather before a return to less cold weather in SW winds is the maintained message this morning with no real sign of anything 'winter wonderlandish' likely for many over the coming few weeks across the UK I'm afraid.


Next Update Wednesday January 13th 2016 from 09:00


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



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Nordic Snowman
12 January 2016 09:15:13


 


Agree Shropshire. The cold may hold on two or three extra days and give one or two snowy surprises but longer term analysis would suggest an atlantic return by day 8/9. 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


I agree too. I think the Atlantic will eventually awaken as a more mobile flow establishes. However, I don't agree with Shropshire's '4-week' part as that is difficult to call at this stage.


Bjorli, Norway

Website 
nsrobins
12 January 2016 09:15:49

Yes, that's the form horse although the 4 weeks part is just guesswork and conjecture, even more so given the disparity in the models at only day 4 or 5. The UKMO really is a curious (and consistent) option yet again.

Anyway the next few days look increasingly chilly.

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


Agreed. By my own rules (cross-model agreement at +96) there is still disparity and the UKMO continues to insist on a high sticking over of just N of the UK. Whilst disagreement still exists, options remain, although a return of westerly type is as of today the prominent signal.


One thing that does seem to be emerging, even now on the ECM and GFS, is a temporary disruption at breakdown on day 7 which given the cold surface air in place could produce initial wintry ppn.


As ever . . . .  (etc)


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
ballamar
12 January 2016 09:21:58
Hope GFS next run agrees with UKMO purely to see how everyon reacts
David M Porter
12 January 2016 09:25:51

Still the UKMO seems to be at odds with ECM and GFS at T+144. It's a long time since this has been the case for as long, if it has ever happened before that is.


Either UKMO is going to end up with much egg on it's face, or GFS and ECM will.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
some faraway beach
12 January 2016 09:28:02


Ninja post - ECM continues to signal a return to mild stuff by days 9 and 10, but before then - cold!



Originally Posted by: Retron 


Extraordinary ... every single morning when Darren posts that diagram we see that the median has pushed a rise of surface temps to 4C out to day 10. Whatever the various set-ups might be which the ECM suite is offering, the fact is that the cold gets prolonged on every run, with any rise in max surface temp, even to just 4C, pushed right out to 240 hrs.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
some faraway beach
12 January 2016 09:51:54

The ECM ensemble from 48 hrs ago, showing a return to a surface max of 4C as early as Monday 18th:



On the same day on today's ensemble the median looks to be no more than 1.5C.


Worth bearing in mind amid the daily gloom about the Atlantic "sadly" returning. The ECM at least has actually been prolonging its forecasted spell of cooler temps.


 


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Nordic Snowman
12 January 2016 10:11:15

and following on....


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1261.gif


With ECM and GFS together, the odds would favour a sinking High. I don't trust the UKMO 144 at the best of times but that is IMHO only.


Bjorli, Norway

Website 
Nordic Snowman
12 January 2016 10:16:05

Hope GFS next run agrees with UKMO purely to see how everyon reacts

Originally Posted by: ballamar 


Not the 06z run.


I am pretty certain that the UKMO 144 this evening will show the High slipping ESE. We'll find out in a few hours.


Bjorli, Norway

Website 
Whiteout
12 January 2016 10:21:55

In fact, running those charts on, a very snowy breakdown the further East you are 


Home/Work - Dartmoor
240m/785 ft asl
Russwirral
12 January 2016 10:26:39
not sure why everyone is saying "rainfest" and return to mild air quickly.

Looking at the numbers - even when that occluded front moves through it says near freezing. This is developing into an interesting situation

Take this chart for example - looks mild - right?
http://max.nwstatic.co.uk/gfsimages/gfs.20160112/06/171/h850t850eu.png 

not really at the surface
http://max.nwstatic.co.uk/gfsimages/gfs.20160112/06/171/ukmaxtemp.png 


Russwirral
12 January 2016 10:29:25
mild air finally breaks through - but the cold puts up an impressive block fight. Very nice charts this morning - given recent GFS output.
Whiteout
12 January 2016 10:32:19

mild air finally breaks through - but the cold puts up an impressive block fight. Very nice charts this morning - given recent GFS output.

Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


As always with GFS milder air wins eventually - default - but an improvement from 00z run and very possibly the block will hold for longer = potential snow fest 


Home/Work - Dartmoor
240m/785 ft asl
Steve Murr
12 January 2016 10:38:24
People need to rerun the 06z v the 00z to work out why its a more snowy run
Try the theta e charts -
You will see theres undercutting now on the 06z....

Strange that.........
yorkshirelad89
12 January 2016 10:44:47

Yes it appears the Atlantic MAY break through again but its onset as it is keeps getting pushed back a little, with high pressure putting up a stubborn fight.


The UKMO is once again persisting in a high to our NW and although I can understand why people think it will fall into line with the others, I think we can't say until T+72, so I will wait until Wednesday evening.


Whether the high stays to our NW is a very marginal issue and all depends on the shortwave trying to cut through the block on Friday, the slightest, incremental change for the better could well see others come in line with the UKMO. If by tomorrow we see more runs sinking the high to leave an anticyclonic outlook, then I will side with the ECM/GFS.


Hull

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