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doctormog
28 December 2013 11:19:46

Nothing to say other than dire is the ECM 10 Day mean message this morning.

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Reem2401.gif 

Originally Posted by: nickl 



funny thing is Martin, that I can never find the jet in northern Spain as being dire, whatever the mean slp shows. I think the period post the 6th will not be without wintry interest, if only oop norf.

Originally Posted by: GIBBY 



I am beginning to think the same thing Nick. A lack of an easterly option (or low likelihood cf. Ian Ferguson's comments) does not preclude cold weather. I would be inclined to think that colder and still unsettled conditions may be the most likely setup in the first half of January (after the first few days).

Not good news on the flooding front unfortunately but not exactly untypical in British wintertime.
Rob K
28 December 2013 11:37:38
Latest GFS has much less interest than the 00z did in the long range, with the Arctic high staying much further north.

Having said that, amid all the doom and gloom, outside the window it is a beautiful crisp sunny winter day (for once!)
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Quantum
28 December 2013 11:45:55

Still looking for signs of that cold pool over canada buggering off. By 240 there is a slight improvement with HP over newfoundland, and higher heights over the hudson; however another cold shot of sub -30C uppers is waiting in the wings. Doesn't look good. CFS still keen on keeping the pattern going until march. 


Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
JACKO4EVER
28 December 2013 12:11:03
Don't look at CFS extended if it's cold your looking for- could well be a very wet and reasonably mild winter if that's anything to go by. On other current output, I believe the wet and mobile weather is here until at least mid January.
Flooding will become a problem no doubt
doctormog
28 December 2013 12:15:26

Don't look at CFS extended

Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 



It's OK most people don't [sn_bsmil]

In contrast it is nice to see the Met Office mention the risk of significantly colder weather towards the end of January. Both may be wrong but I know which I would trust more.
Retron
28 December 2013 12:18:30

Don't look at CFS

Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 


Fixed that for you. CFS is worse than useless.


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/allmodel/daily/cor/cor_day10_PMSL_MSL_G2NHX.png


(ECM is the highest scoring at day 10 - it's a bit better than making a pure guess (50%), GFS is worse than guessing and CFS is even worse than that!)


The 6z GEFS is the most promising regarding synoptics in some time. Yesterday's MOGREPS and ECM-15 contained several easterlies by day 10/15 but they weren't in the majority. Nonetheless, mildness and zonality until mid-January is far from nailed on.


Leysdown, north Kent
Essan
28 December 2013 12:21:39

Given it's warmer over Eastern Europe and Russia (warmest Christmas on record on Moscow) than it is over the Atlantic, are people really still looking for an easterly?   Or are they hoping for an early sign of spring warmth? 


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Retron
28 December 2013 12:23:52


Given it's warmer over Eastern Europe and Russia (warmest Christmas on record on Moscow) than it is over the Atlantic, are people really still looking for an easterly?   Or are they hoping for an early sign of spring warmth? 


Originally Posted by: Essan 


Yes, people really are. Believe it or not, mainland Europe can cool down within 2 or 3 days if Arctic air is displaced.


(This is an old stalwart argument, suffice to say that if we get an Arctic High moving down over Scandinavia mainland Europe would cool down in no time.)


Leysdown, north Kent
Essan
28 December 2013 12:38:14



Given it's warmer over Eastern Europe and Russia (warmest Christmas on record on Moscow) than it is over the Atlantic, are people really still looking for an easterly?   Or are they hoping for an early sign of spring warmth? 


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Yes, people really are. Believe it or not, mainland Europe can cool down within 2 or 3 days if Arctic air is displaced.


(This is an old stalwart argument, suffice to say that if we get an Arctic High moving down over Scandinavia mainland Europe would cool down in no time.)


Originally Posted by: Essan 



Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
picturesareme
28 December 2013 12:41:45
UK Outlook for Sunday 12 Jan 2014 to Sunday 26 Jan 2014:

Current indications suggest the unsettled start to January is more likely than not to persist through the middle to latter part of the month. This would mean spells of dull, wet and windy weather alternating with brighter but colder and showery periods, including some wintry showers. Some signs are also emerging suggesting temperatures being less mild in general terms than the last couple of weeks, and perhaps even significantly colder late in the month.

Updated: 1139 on Sat 28 Dec 2013

:) 🙂 🙂 🙂 :):)
Gooner
28 December 2013 12:49:48

Don't look at CFS extended if it's cold your looking for- could well be a very wet and reasonably mild winter if that's anything to go by. On other current output, I believe the wet and mobile weather is here until at least mid January.
Flooding will become a problem no doubt

Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 


http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/cfs/runs/2013122706/run2/cfsnh-2-1110.png?06


Mild all the way Jacko


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Retron
28 December 2013 13:10:24


Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Originally Posted by: Essan 


That's making rather a lot of assumptions! Suffice to say that none of us can tell what sort of easterly we'd get, there have been all sorts on offer in the ensembles from a quick easterly waft to proper deep cold easterlies (even in the 6z GEFS today, if you have a browse!)


I'd rather take a grey, tepid easterly recycled from the Med any day over the recent gales and rain.


(Besides, although it was a few weeks ago now, before this zonal spell we had a Euro high with SSE'lies. It led to the only frosts of the winter so far down here, combined with crisp, sunny days. And that was from a "warm" source!)


 


Leysdown, north Kent
Gooner
28 December 2013 13:18:12



Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Originally Posted by: Retron 


That's making rather a lot of assumptions! Suffice to say that none of us can tell what sort of easterly we'd get, there have been all sorts on offer in the ensembles from a quick easterly waft to proper deep cold easterlies (even in the 6z GEFS today, if you have a browse!)


I'd rather take a grey, tepid easterly recycled from the Med any day over the recent gales and rain.


(Besides, although it was a few weeks ago now, before this zonal spell we had a Euro high with SSE'lies. It led to the only frosts of the winter so far down here, combined with crisp, sunny days. And that was from a "warm" source!)


 


Originally Posted by: Essan 


Me too


Even the latest update mention the possibility of significant cold later in Jan......................Easteerly?


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Essan
28 December 2013 13:18:59



Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Originally Posted by: Retron 


That's making rather a lot of assumptions!

Originally Posted by: Essan 



Actually, that's making NO assumptions - you're the one making the assumption that something models are not predicting to happen could happen


Evidence for an easterly: zero
Evidence that such an easterly would bring cold weather: zero

Isn't the model thread meant to be about what the models are suggesting may happen, not fanatasies about what people would like them to happen?

Best chance of cold/snow atm is from the north or northwest.


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Stormchaser
28 December 2013 13:20:39

As an unsettled regime remains the form horse, it's that which I will continue to study over the coming 10 days... and it looks like we're going to get machine-gunned with disturbances next week, in fact I can't recall seeing so many seperate rainmakers in one week as are modelled by the ECM 00z op run!


GFS has a similar count, but going by ECM, the menu looks like this:


Monday: relatively brief but heavy frontal rain in the first half, showers second half for some of us, briefly windy but nothing much (what's with the Met Office wind warning...?). Possible complications from a small secondary disturbance crossing the south.


Tuesday: another frontal system, similar to Monday's but crossing a little more slowly, with weaker winds but more rain.


Wednesday: disturbance in the Irish Sea at midnight and a kink in the isobars running SE suggests another frontal system or at least a trough line bringing some organised showers


Thursday: Notable shortwave brings heavy rain and some stronger winds, the former a real concern, the latter nothing exceptional.


Friday: A secondary low, stronger than Thursday's feature, brings some notably strong winds to Ireland, Wales and the Midlands, plus a load more heavy rain - flooding could be extensive and in some places severe by this time.


Saturday: Another secondary low brings an active cold front with heavy rain and somewhat strong winds. Precipitation would likely become wintry showers overnight into Sunday across almost all of the UK.


Sunday: a showery day but with the remains of the LP from Friday drifting down from the NW to enhance things further.


Monday-Tuesday: a secondary LP races through with wind and rain ahead of another major trough arriving from the west, albiet while weakening having peaked out in the Atlantic. Still some notably strong winds and heavy rain, though!


 


To summarise,  


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Keep Calm and Forecast On
Essan
28 December 2013 13:20:44




Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


That's making rather a lot of assumptions! Suffice to say that none of us can tell what sort of easterly we'd get, there have been all sorts on offer in the ensembles from a quick easterly waft to proper deep cold easterlies (even in the 6z GEFS today, if you have a browse!)


I'd rather take a grey, tepid easterly recycled from the Med any day over the recent gales and rain.


(Besides, although it was a few weeks ago now, before this zonal spell we had a Euro high with SSE'lies. It led to the only frosts of the winter so far down here, combined with crisp, sunny days. And that was from a "warm" source!)


 


Originally Posted by: Retron 


Me too


Even the latest update mention the possibility of significant cold later in Jan......................Easteerly?


Originally Posted by: Essan 




Northerly? 


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
UncleAlbert
28 December 2013 13:21:17

 


Yes, people really are. Believe it or not, mainland Europe can cool down within 2 or 3 days if Arctic air is displaced.


(This is an old stalwart argument, suffice to say that if we get an Arctic High moving down over Scandinavia mainland Europe would cool down in no time.)



I'm no expert though I have followed charts and weather patterns for many years. I always follow this thread through all seasons though my passion as with many is for the wintry stuff.  I do thank you guys for deepening my knowledge even at my ripe age.  Born during a beautiful azores ridge in June 49! 


Anyway to my point, in support of your comment, we were told at school that it is only the first few inches of the soil that have any influence on the weather above it and this is very quickly modified by a change of air temperature. Current output has consistently shown higher pressure around Lapland so along with Ian Fergusons comments (10% chance of the required block) you can't totally rule out cold from the North East into FI.  However one thing that would have some importance of course is the higher sea temps and lack of ice in the baltic.

Gooner
28 December 2013 13:32:13





Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Originally Posted by: Essan 


That's making rather a lot of assumptions! Suffice to say that none of us can tell what sort of easterly we'd get, there have been all sorts on offer in the ensembles from a quick easterly waft to proper deep cold easterlies (even in the 6z GEFS today, if you have a browse!)


I'd rather take a grey, tepid easterly recycled from the Med any day over the recent gales and rain.


(Besides, although it was a few weeks ago now, before this zonal spell we had a Euro high with SSE'lies. It led to the only frosts of the winter so far down here, combined with crisp, sunny days. And that was from a "warm" source!)


 


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Me too


Even the latest update mention the possibility of significant cold later in Jan......................Easteerly?


Originally Posted by: Retron 




Northerly? 


Originally Posted by: Essan 


I doubt it , that would be a fleeting shot of cold and significantly?? Not too sure


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Retron
28 December 2013 13:33:30



Actually, that's making NO assumptions - you're the one making the assumption that something models are not predicting to happen could happen


Originally Posted by: Essan 


And there you go again! You're making the assumption that I'm going for an easterly, when I'm not - I've not actually stated my position so far, but I would always go along with the ensembles and at the moment they're pointing to a continuation of generally mild, wet and at times windy weather - at least down here. "Up north" it'd be a fair bit colder with regards to the long-term mean.


You also made the assumption that an easterly, were it to occur, would be grey and not especially cold. I merely pointed out that those ensemble members which show an easterly are mixed; some show a gentle easterly waft and others show a full-on cold blast. Both of those are in the minority but, as can be seen by the MetO update there are a significant number of ensemble members showing a colder outcome. It's likely they're showing easterly or NE'ly cold rather than northerly cold going by the mention from Ian F over on NW and even the last couple of ECM-15 control runs... this morning's ECM-15 control, for example, shows easterlies and NE'lies over the UK by 360 with high pressure over Scandinavia. Doesn't mean it's right, of course, but given that, the MOGREPS and ECM-15 yesterday and the GEFS ensembles over the last day... there has to be a moderate (but not a majority) chance of a switch to much colder conditions.


 


 


Leysdown, north Kent
Polar Low
28 December 2013 13:46:34

Perhaps something is up regarding cold control looks very different perhaps the met have one eye on it


as does gm as does ecm to some degree


 


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=0&ech=252&mode=0&carte=1


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=228&mode=0&carte=1



http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=240&mode=1&map=1&archive=0


 ecm control hints at it more members trending colder longer term little doubt


http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/vijftiendaagse/Data/15DAAGSE_06260_NWT.png


 


postage stamps


http://www.ecmwf.int/samples/d/inspect/catalog/samplers/banner/mean_sea_level_pressure_and_temperature_at_850hpa!132!pop!od!enfo!enplot!2013100500!!/


 


 

Rob K
28 December 2013 14:07:28



Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Originally Posted by: Essan 


That's making rather a lot of assumptions!

Originally Posted by: Retron 



Actually, that's making NO assumptions - you're the one making the assumption that something models are not predicting to happen could happen


Evidence for an easterly: zero
Evidence that such an easterly would bring cold weather: zero

Isn't the model thread meant to be about what the models are suggesting may happen, not fanatasies about what people would like them to happen?

Best chance of cold/snow atm is from the north or northwest.

Originally Posted by: Essan 


Zero? I take it you didn't see the 00z GFS run then? Looked like a cold easterly to me.

Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Essan
28 December 2013 14:59:54






Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


That's making rather a lot of assumptions! Suffice to say that none of us can tell what sort of easterly we'd get, there have been all sorts on offer in the ensembles from a quick easterly waft to proper deep cold easterlies (even in the 6z GEFS today, if you have a browse!)


I'd rather take a grey, tepid easterly recycled from the Med any day over the recent gales and rain.


(Besides, although it was a few weeks ago now, before this zonal spell we had a Euro high with SSE'lies. It led to the only frosts of the winter so far down here, combined with crisp, sunny days. And that was from a "warm" source!)


 


Originally Posted by: Essan 


Me too


Even the latest update mention the possibility of significant cold later in Jan......................Easteerly?


Originally Posted by: Gooner 




Northerly? 


Originally Posted by: Retron 


I doubt it , that would be a fleeting shot of cold and significantly?? Not too sure


Originally Posted by: Essan 



But why would an easterly bring 'significant cold' to 95% of the UK?    

Though has to be asked what the MetO means by that - overnight temps below zero would be significantly colder than anything we've had so far this winter!  

Anyway, despite one outlier at T+384 there's nothing to suggest an easterly at this stage - and certainly nothing to suggest one bringing significantly cold weather to Britain.  



Edit: actually, the MetO say significantly colder - which makes it a relative term and may well just mean temps down to -1c at night!   I suspect a frosty HP might be the most likely scenario?


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Gooner
28 December 2013 15:04:46







Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Originally Posted by: Essan 


That's making rather a lot of assumptions! Suffice to say that none of us can tell what sort of easterly we'd get, there have been all sorts on offer in the ensembles from a quick easterly waft to proper deep cold easterlies (even in the 6z GEFS today, if you have a browse!)


I'd rather take a grey, tepid easterly recycled from the Med any day over the recent gales and rain.


(Besides, although it was a few weeks ago now, before this zonal spell we had a Euro high with SSE'lies. It led to the only frosts of the winter so far down here, combined with crisp, sunny days. And that was from a "warm" source!)


 


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Me too


Even the latest update mention the possibility of significant cold later in Jan......................Easteerly?


Originally Posted by: Essan 




Northerly? 


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


I doubt it , that would be a fleeting shot of cold and significantly?? Not too sure


Originally Posted by: Retron 



But why would an easterly bring 'significant cold' to 95% of the UK?    

Though has to be asked what the MetO means by that - overnight temps below zero would be significantly colder than anything we've had so far this winter!  

Anyway, despite one outlier at T+384 there's nothing to suggest an easterly at this stage - and certainly nothing to suggest one bringing significantly cold weather to Britain.  



Originally Posted by: Essan 


Where did the % come from ??


Not too sure the Met update is based on GFS are you


There clearly is something suggesting it otherwese Ian F and the Met wouldn't be mentioning it


 


 


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Retron
28 December 2013 15:09:53


But why would an easterly bring 'significant cold' to 95% of the UK?    


Originally Posted by: Essan 


I'm sure you know how an easterly could bring 'significant cold'. If for some reason you can't, check out the control, or failing that perturbations 2, 5 or 18 from the 6z.




Anyway, despite one outlier at T+384 there's nothing to suggest an easterly at this stage - and certainly nothing to suggest one bringing significantly cold weather to Britain.  


I've no idea what charts you're looking at, but they're clearly not the same ones I'm looking at - or the Met Office, come to that. There is a small but notable risk of an easterly type developing as can clearly be seen from the past couple of days' worth of model output. And that includes the bits you have to pay to see (such as the ECM-15 control run) and those bits you can't buy access to (such as MOGREPS-15).


 


Leysdown, north Kent
Essan
28 December 2013 15:14:41








Aye, but there is no Arctic high moving down over Scandinavia and no sign of the continent cooling.  So might just as well be looking for dull greyness from Spain!

(why people like dull grey weather in winter beats me, but there you go!)


Originally Posted by: Gooner 


That's making rather a lot of assumptions! Suffice to say that none of us can tell what sort of easterly we'd get, there have been all sorts on offer in the ensembles from a quick easterly waft to proper deep cold easterlies (even in the 6z GEFS today, if you have a browse!)


I'd rather take a grey, tepid easterly recycled from the Med any day over the recent gales and rain.


(Besides, although it was a few weeks ago now, before this zonal spell we had a Euro high with SSE'lies. It led to the only frosts of the winter so far down here, combined with crisp, sunny days. And that was from a "warm" source!)


 


Originally Posted by: Essan 


Me too


Even the latest update mention the possibility of significant cold later in Jan......................Easteerly?


Originally Posted by: Gooner 




Northerly? 


Originally Posted by: Essan 


I doubt it , that would be a fleeting shot of cold and significantly?? Not too sure


Originally Posted by: Gooner 



But why would an easterly bring 'significant cold' to 95% of the UK?    

Though has to be asked what the MetO means by that - overnight temps below zero would be significantly colder than anything we've had so far this winter!  

Anyway, despite one outlier at T+384 there's nothing to suggest an easterly at this stage - and certainly nothing to suggest one bringing significantly cold weather to Britain.  



Originally Posted by: Retron 


Where did the % come from ??

Originally Posted by: Essan 



Okay, too be fair I'm not sure that even the SE corner of Kent gets 'significant cold' from an easterly these days


Not too sure the Met update is based on GFS are you   



I'm very sure it's not!  

But I'm also unaware of any reason why the reference to a possibility of temps turning significantly colder than the current mildness in mid Jan must refer to an easterly?   It's not even a straw, it's a few molecules of dung that was made by a horse that once ate straw for breakfast ....

And anyway, I really don't get this obsession people have with the fluffy pink bunny!   I prefer cold, frosty, snowy weather in winter!


Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
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