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Joe Bloggs
11 January 2024 07:52:12
00z MetO run carries a significant snow risk this morning.

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/UKMHDOPEU00_168_1.png 

Hard to predict where the rain/snow boundary would be at this stage. 

ECM a good run, as is ICON. 

Still a huge amount of uncertainty. 

Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

llamedos
11 January 2024 07:54:31

You are to model output analysis what King Herod was to child welfare….

🤣

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

🤣🤣
"Life with the Lions"

TWO Moderator
Whiteout
11 January 2024 07:59:07
As far as the midweek low goes, the GFS Op goes for a more southern event, aka channel low affecting a strip south of the M4 lol. 
Home/Work - Dartmoor
240m/785 ft asl
Retron
11 January 2024 08:04:55
FWIW, down here the ECM ensembles are an improvement on yesterday's in the medium term, but worse in the longer term (if it's cold you're after).

The scatter around the latter part of next week has reduced, and is now on the mild side of the median (which itself is down, just 3 or 4 as a median high this time next week).

Into the following week the scatter switches to the cold side, before the median rises markedly - the key day is Sunday the 21st, which sees a median of 9. It then rises into double figures beyond that, with fewer than 5% of the members keeping it cold.

EDIT: And with zonal winds in the stratosphere still forceast to have another dip in a week's time, I still favour the turn of the month for the next push of cold weather.

https://charts.ecmwf.int/products/extended-zonal-mean-zonal-wind?area=nh&base_time=202401100000 

 
Leysdown, north Kent
Ally Pally Snowman
11 January 2024 08:11:57
Upgrade on the ecm means upto 216h. 240h looks like SWs winning out but that's a long way away.  

168h looks snowy to me. 

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=ecm&var=2&run=0&time=168&lid=AVG&h=0&mv=0&tr=24#mapref 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Retron
11 January 2024 08:17:28

Upgrade on the ecm means upto 216h. 240h looks like SWs winning out but that's a long way away. 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


The mean isn't of great use at the moment beyond about 5 days, as the average of a SW'ly and a NNE'ly... isn't much! Look instead at the median, using the box-and-whisker plots. It gives a better idea of the probabilities.

The link for below is for Reading, but of course you can see the charts for anywhere.

https://charts.ecmwf.int/products/opencharts_meteogram?base_time=202401110000&epsgram=classical_15d&lat=51.4333&lon=-1.0&station_name=Reading 
Leysdown, north Kent
Ally Pally Snowman
11 January 2024 08:31:28
Big shift colder from the 0z ensembles  from the ECM 12z set last night. Probably because the low pressure is going south now. Still can't really complain much with these upto the 21st. 

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?geoid=50893&model=ecm&var=2&run=0&lid=ENS&bw=1 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Essan
11 January 2024 08:45:35

Big shift colder from the 0z ensembles  from the ECM 12z set last night. Probably because the low pressure is going south now. Still can't really complain much with these upto the 21st. 

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?geoid=50893&model=ecm&var=2&run=0&lid=ENS&bw=1 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 




Adding in the precipitation for Worcester, I;d say there's still a strong risk of snow for the Midlands next week

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?geoid=47440&model=ecm&var=201&run=0&lid=ENS&bw=1 
Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
Hippydave
11 January 2024 08:54:42
GEFS and ECM ens have 5 days of surface cold IMBY this morning with no real milder blip in the middle FWIW.

Few things obviously still catching the eye:-

1) The encroaching LP from the south west - still a variety of solutions, so anything from rain to snow to dry IMBY. ECM probably most positive for me, then GFS then UKMO I think from the precip charts. Will no doubt change again later! 

2) The little LP that forms between Greenland and Iceland and swings into Scotland on the GFS, cutting off the northerly flow further south. There's again a variety of solutions for that but it could bring a more organised spell of snow for some albeit there's a fairly pronounced milder sector. GFS op shows it moving to the North of Scotland and into Norway with organised precip for Scotland and a dying front moving south with not a lot left on it. UKMO has a different pattern but does bring in a little feature from the north west next Tues/Weds that brings a spell of snow to parts of southern Scotland and northern England. Something to watch for them's up north on the assumption for northern England it's less likely LP from the south will bring frontal snow at least from Wednesdays push (not impossible though!). GEM also has a similar feature with varying amounts of snow from Scotland down to northern England.

On point 1 I think for say the Midlands south where the initial milder push ends up will shape peoples view on this cold snap/spell. IMBY if it's too far North I get 2 days of colder weather, a depressing snow to rain event (or all rain) then maybe a day or 2 of colder air before a stronger mild push with more rain. If it's further south it may bring snow or it may miss altogether but either way I probably get 5 days of cold air, which on top of this week is not too shabby. Obviously for those more in the Midlands, as some of the runs have shown there's a decent chance of a disruptive snow event - take that away and it's 5 days of mostly quiet cold weather with limited snow chances. Not bad but it's like losing £50 and finding a £5.

On point 2, the UKMO Op run would at first glance be rather good for a fairly wide slice from the Midlands north I think and if that second LP at T168 followed a similar track it'd be even better.

So to conclude a rather rambling post, cold still incoming, duration TBC but probably 5 days IMBY, more likely 7-8 days Scotland, a return to average/mild favoured after that point. Where any snow/rain sits in the south will for some make/break this, 'nothing' for some, nirvana potentially for others. 
 
Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Gandalf The White
11 January 2024 08:56:52
MOGREPS keeps it cold here through next week, with just a couple of the ensemble members going mild at the end. There are also 3 that deliver over 10 cm of lying snow (one has 20 cm) and the mean has 2 cm.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


ozone_aurora
11 January 2024 09:07:16
GFS looks like wet and windy again after a cold next (or at least early next) week.
Whiteout
11 January 2024 09:16:39

MOGREPS keeps it cold here through next week, with just a couple of the ensemble members going mild at the end. There are also 3 that deliver over 10 cm of lying snow (one has 20 cm) and the mean has 2 cm.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 



Good spot, they do look good, coupled with the improved ECM ensembles great to see..
Home/Work - Dartmoor
240m/785 ft asl
nsrobins
11 January 2024 09:17:41

GFS looks like wet and windy again after a cold next (or at least early next) week.

Originally Posted by: ozone_aurora 


It does, but it's quite isolated - even in it's own suite.
Some level-headed commentary in here after a couple of kicks by the much-touted GFS operationals. My gut feeling is GFS as a code is not reacting correctly to what is a significant tPV disruption and (as had been proposed but I continue to fail in finding real evidence) is perhaps reverting to the bias of a 'normal' Atlantic pattern in the longer range.
What seems likely now is the pebble in the flow in the form of a shortwave forming near Iceland over the weekend will temper the initial push of Arctic air and until this is resolved (probably not until during the event) we won't know the depth or duration and subsequent wintry hazards of any cold spell from Monday next week.
I'd like to think that (for the last few days at least) EC and UKM (and it's cousin MOGREPS) have got this right and we'll see at lest 6 days of cold air with snow potential without staring at the typical milder SW flow that GFS wants to deliver (at the moment).
All good fun and don't forget the MetO forecasters are pretty confident about a colder scenario.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Taylor1740
11 January 2024 09:32:20

It does, but it's quite isolated - even in it's own suite.
Some level-headed commentary in here after a couple of kicks by the much-touted GFS operationals. My gut feeling is GFS as a code is not reacting correctly to what is a significant tPV disruption and (as had been proposed but I continue to fail in finding real evidence) is perhaps reverting to the bias of a 'normal' Atlantic pattern in the longer range.
What seems likely now is the pebble in the flow in the form of a shortwave forming near Iceland over the weekend will temper the initial push of Arctic air and until this is resolved (probably not until during the event) we won't know the depth or duration and subsequent wintry hazards of any cold spell from Monday next week.
I'd like to think that (for the last few days at least) EC and UKM (and it's cousin MOGREPS) have got this right and we'll see at lest 6 days of cold air with snow potential without staring at the typical milder SW flow that GFS wants to deliver (at the moment).
All good fun and don't forget the MetO forecasters are pretty confident about a colder scenario.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


yes that GFS op is really poor, however very much at the very mild end of its ensembles. On balance it looks like the cold spell should last a week, however after that the signal is for the Atlantic weather systems to return but that's a long way off. Outlook also looks a little boring now for next week in regards to significant snow events, hope it's not another bone dry cold spell here.
NW Leeds - 150m amsl
Lionel Hutz
11 January 2024 09:36:58

It does, but it's quite isolated - even in it's own suite.
Some level-headed commentary in here after a couple of kicks by the much-touted GFS operationals. My gut feeling is GFS as a code is not reacting correctly to what is a significant tPV disruption and (as had been proposed but I continue to fail in finding real evidence) is perhaps reverting to the bias of a 'normal' Atlantic pattern in the longer range.
What seems likely now is the pebble in the flow in the form of a shortwave forming near Iceland over the weekend will temper the initial push of Arctic air and until this is resolved (probably not until during the event) we won't know the depth or duration and subsequent wintry hazards of any cold spell from Monday next week.
I'd like to think that (for the last few days at least) EC and UKM (and it's cousin MOGREPS) have got this right and we'll see at lest 6 days of cold air with snow potential without staring at the typical milder SW flow that GFS wants to deliver (at the moment).
All good fun and don't forget the MetO forecasters are pretty confident about a colder scenario.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 



Yes, the fact that the Met Office is on board is a big plus. Our own MetO(MetEireann) is being rather more coy. Their detailed forecast goes up to next Monday. Thereafter, the outlook is; "staying very cold with mixed weather". "Mixed weather" should cover most eventualities😂. 
Lionel Hutz
Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland
68m ASL



jhall
11 January 2024 09:38:12
Having just caught up on the 0Z model runs, I'm feeling much happier than I was after yesterday's 12Z runs. UKMO and ECM (both OP and ensemble) look pretty good, with the possibility of significant snow for us in the south. The GFS OP is poor again, but as others have pointed out every much towards the mild end of the ensemble, and the ensemble overall is I think a bit improved.
Cranleigh, Surrey
Retron
11 January 2024 09:38:48
Incidentally, FuXi is foxed! It's the top-rated of the ML models that ECM is testing, but it can't seem to make head nor tail of the upcoming situation - just look at the T+192 chart, for example, what a mess...

https://charts.ecmwf.int/products/fuxi_medium-mslp-wind850?base_time=202401110000&projection=opencharts_europe&valid_time=202401190000 

 
Leysdown, north Kent
Saint Snow
11 January 2024 09:39:35


Some level-headed commentary in here

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 




The daily morning task of wading through the slurry to find the nuggets of objective analysis...

 

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Saint Snow
11 January 2024 09:43:42

Incidentally, FuXi is foxed! It's the top-rated of the ML models that ECM is testing, but it can't seem to make head nor tail of the upcoming situation - just look at the T+192 chart, for example, what a mess...

https://charts.ecmwf.int/products/fuxi_medium-mslp-wind850?base_time=202401110000&projection=opencharts_europe&valid_time=202401190000 

 

Originally Posted by: Retron 




FuXi?

Sounds like a fictional Oriental supervillain spliced with autocratic current head of the Chinese dictatorship.

 

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
White Meadows
11 January 2024 09:44:44

MOGREPS keeps it cold here through next week, with just a couple of the ensemble members going mild at the end. There are also 3 that deliver over 10 cm of lying snow (one has 20 cm) and the mean has 2 cm.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Oh no. Not really what you wanted then.
 
Retron
11 January 2024 09:50:25

FuXi?
Sounds like a fictional Oriental supervillain spliced with autocratic current head of the Chinese dictatorship.
 

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


It's written by some very clever Chinese people - not sure that they're supervillains though!

"Nonreciprocal entanglement in cavity magnomechanics exploiting chiral cavity-magnon coupling" is just one of the many papers which the authors have co-authored. I'm not dumb, but I haven't really got a clue what that means!

They've also been involved in lots of technical stuff involving GPUs, which is what they'll be running these ML models on. GPUs = gaming graphics cards, essentially, although I can't help but feel mine is underused whenever I play games on it!

https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.12873 

Incidentally NVidia, who make those aforementioned GPUs, have their own ML model - which has a weak ridge over the UK at 192, with a low over Scandinavia. That at least looks plausible, unlike the Chinese offering!

You can see all the ML models on the ECM site here - there are now four being tested:

https://charts.ecmwf.int/?facets=%7B%22Product%20type%22%3A%5B%22Experimental%3A%20Machine%20learning%20models%22%5D%7D 
 
Leysdown, north Kent
Gandalf The White
11 January 2024 09:58:39

Incidentally, FuXi is foxed! It's the top-rated of the ML models that ECM is testing, but it can't seem to make head nor tail of the upcoming situation - just look at the T+192 chart, for example, what a mess...

https://charts.ecmwf.int/products/fuxi_medium-mslp-wind850?base_time=202401110000&projection=opencharts_europe&valid_time=202401190000 

 

Originally Posted by: Retron 



LOL. That chart brought to mind the words on some official documents.. ‘This space intentionally left blank’

🙂
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


The Beast from the East
11 January 2024 10:10:36

After all the debate about where the snow/rain line might be on Wednesday, the entire system seems to have disappeared this morning. Charts in a real state of flux. 

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Gone on the latest GFS as well!

Oh well at least the cold hangs on a bit longer
"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Downpour
11 January 2024 10:14:27

LOL. That chart brought to mind the words on some official documents.. ‘This space intentionally left blank’

🙂

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 



I say again, the main theme is dry/drier in the reliable and thank the Lord for that. A beautiful morning here: crisp, cold and bright. Frontal snow is rarely much good in any case, often pushes through and ushers in an Atlantic regime: the last thing we want given the saturated ground. 
Chingford
London E4
147ft
jhall
11 January 2024 10:15:13

It's written by some very clever Chinese people - not sure that they're supervillains though!

"Nonreciprocal entanglement in cavity magnomechanics exploiting chiral cavity-magnon coupling" is just one of the many papers which the authors have co-authored. I'm not dumb, but I haven't really got a clue what that means!

They've also been involved in lots of technical stuff involving GPUs, which is what they'll be running these ML models on. GPUs = gaming graphics cards, essentially, although I can't help but feel mine is underused whenever I play games on it!

https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.12873 

Incidentally NVidia, who make those aforementioned GPUs, have their own ML model - which has a weak ridge over the UK at 192, with a low over Scandinavia. That at least looks plausible, unlike the Chinese offering!

You can see all the ML models on the ECM site here - there are now four being tested:

https://charts.ecmwf.int/?facets=%7B%22Product%20type%22%3A%5B%22Experimental%3A%20Machine%20learning%20models%22%5D%7D 
 

Originally Posted by: Retron 


'"Nonreciprocal entanglement in cavity magnomechanics exploiting chiral cavity-magnon coupling" is just one of the many papers which the authors have co-authored.' Not exactly the area of expertise I would have expected from people developed a weather forecasting model!
Cranleigh, Surrey

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