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Ulric
03 April 2020 10:21:11


Beijing has a moral obligation to forgive these debts. If it fails to do so, the rest of the world has a moral right to default. We may not have the capacity to force this on to China. But we do have the capacity, and the duty, to facilitate a co-ordinated default if it does not comply.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Missing the point completely.


China is a command economy and has dealt with the crisis with the tools available to it. Responsibility for the virus does not accrue to China as far as I can see because it could just as well have arisen in the worlds known novel virus hotspot in Tanzania on the slopes of Kilimanjaro. Nobody would be threatening to extract reparation from Tanzania if it had originated there.


The fact that modern capitalist systems have no resilience and cannot call upon centralised resources is not China's fault. Neither is the fact that the West treats everything as a credit transaction rather than a practical problem in response to which, practical actions must be taken.


The blunt truth is that if a co-ordinated default is organised against China, it now has the resources and discipline to just flip the finger at whoever might challenge. That includes the US.


To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection. - Henri Poincaré
Phil G
03 April 2020 10:23:10


 


Unfortunately like most populist and nationalist regimes they will deflect blame and they will try to take advantage of the situation. They are already trying to turn this into a national triumph ('look how well we did and look how incompetent the West is'). There are reports of increased dissatisfaction among many young people in China, but I doubt it will amount to anything material. 


 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Yes too many loyal to the leaders. You can imagine any revolt would be severly dealt with.


I was on holiday in Dubai the first week of March, so just managed to get an overseas break before it clamped down here. Over there, one of the staff said the hotel was quiet as there wasn't any Chinese tourists there. My sister was in NZ and remarked that usually it was swarming with Chinese, but none were there either. I think its safe to say they holiday just about anywhere now, and in numbers. If the people can't do it from within, the West needs to put pressure on China to undertake huge changes. Their culture and practices do not fit in with the modern world where travel makes disease too easy to flourish. We should start closing borders with them if they don't comply. They won't like not growing as an economy as I expect they cannot believe the good fortune they have had in recent years. Would they want to endanger that?

xioni2
03 April 2020 10:24:24

Perhaps we should blame Italy too for concealing the true extent of the problem, the bastaardi left us going to the racecourses and the indoor gigs for too long!

Bolty
03 April 2020 10:28:23


The UK is heading for a 15pc contraction in GDP in the second quarter of the year - a crash that would dwarf that experienced in this country during the Great Depression and a slump which would be unprecedented, according to Capital Economics.


This is likely to be reflected across all the major European economies and the figures from the US are likely to be worse.


And yet not a word of regret for all this from China.


Originally Posted by: Justin W 


It will be something more sinister than this I'm afraid. Deep down the Chinese government will be loving this. One of their major competitiors (the US) likely to be on its knees in the next few weeks, European countries are now dependent on them for ventilators and PPE, plus the fact that, as already mentioned, China owns a large part of the western debt which they will be able to claim even more of over the coming months and years.


If I'm honest, it couldn't be going any better for China. They even know that any second wave they face can be blamed on the west for not containing it. In reality they're revelling in it...


Scott
Blackrod, Lancashire (4 miles south of Chorley) at 156m asl.
My weather station 
speckledjim
03 April 2020 10:30:39
New measures introduced in Singapore.....

“With evidence of growing spread within the community and the risk of asymptomatic spread, Singapore announced a much stricter set of measures that would be implemented for about a month. All non-essential workplaces will be closed from 7 April 2020 onwards, while schools will move to HBL, and preschools will close except to provide services for parents without alternative care arrangements, from 8 April to 4 May 2020.[169] All food establishments will provide only take-away and delivery services. The authorities will no longer dissuade the general public from using masks and will distribute reusable masks to every household from 5 April to 12 April”.
Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
howham
03 April 2020 10:33:03


 


 


 



Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


I've got all their albums...

Saint Snow
03 April 2020 10:33:32


This is a laughable response by our own populists and neocons to cover up their responsibility. China might have tried to cover up the outbreak initially and they were incompetent too, but since late January at least the Chinese scientists had described in great detail the symptoms of the disease and the need for ventilators, ECMO and PPE. The western governments had ample warning.


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


 


Nobody is pointing the finger at frontline medics and scientists in China, and the excellent data, experience and helpful advice they shared.


But the Chinese government apparatchiks have behaved reprehensibly, especially in the early weeks of the contagion. They even arrested a doctor who, through professional integrity, had alerted the WHO (?) to the emerging disaster, whilst the CPC sought to suppress news.


Let's also not fall in into the trap of classing the Chinese regime as in any way communist. They are State Capitalists. The CPC is like the parent company, with all the other corporations operating there being de facto subsidiaries. Their authoritarianism, accepted by the Chinese people decades ago as necessary to defeat another tyranny, has allowed them to impose working conditions that we would view as horrendous, force millions out of their homes and into desperate penury to make way for their industrial revolution, and crap all over the concept of human rights. It is effectively akin to a feudal-capitalism system, with a tiny minority allowed to become mega-rich and powerful, whilst the majority do the work that makes these people rich.


It's not a system for anyone even vaguely left-of-centre to admire. It's the epitome of the kind of socio-economic system that any left-of-centre person should despise.



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Saint Snow
03 April 2020 10:34:54


 


I've got all their albums...


Originally Posted by: howham 


 


Didn't have you down as a fan of death-metal!



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
xioni2
03 April 2020 10:38:26


It's not a system for anyone even vaguely left-of-centre to admire. It's the epitome of the kind of socio-economic system that any left-of-centre person should despise.


Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


You are preaching to the wrong person as I despise the Chinese regime for several reasons. Just for the record though, China officially notified the WHO on 31 December 2019 about an unknown illness causing pneumonia.

Gavin D
03 April 2020 10:39:00

Spain's 12-hour overnight update


5,645 new cases and 587 new deaths



  • New cases have fallen by 475 with the same 12-hour period to Thursday morning

  • Deaths have fallen by 29

John p
03 April 2020 10:49:22

FFS


 


 




Camberley, Surrey
John p
03 April 2020 10:56:04

This is unimaginably awful


 


 




Camberley, Surrey
Gavin D
03 April 2020 10:57:46
Spain recorded 932 deaths on Thursday down from 950 on Wednesday.

It's the first decrease in deaths since March 26th offering a glimmer of hope that they may be starting to get past the worst.
xioni2
03 April 2020 10:58:55


This is unimaginably awful



Originally Posted by: John p 


It is and I really hope there aren't many more. A child dying without his mother and father next to him and his parents unable to say or do anything. It's just heart breaking.

Perthite1
03 April 2020 11:09:11


 


But he is a partisan tribal loyalist, I would probably be the same if Labour was overseeing this, but I am more detached than I used to be. Maunder would allow King Boris to have his way with his daughters if it was ordered by Central Office


 


Originally Posted by: The Beast from the East 


It is like a religious belief with the Neo Liberal right wingers. Good to see you back Beast

xioni2
03 April 2020 11:15:34

Greece tightens the quarantine further, you are only allowed outside twice a day, one for exercise and one for shopping (both close to your home address) and it's all done by text messaging (you get pre-approval in your phone). Everyone caught without clearance gets a fine of 1,000 euros. Motorway tolls have also closed with the police checking all vehicles.


 


 

Maunder Minimum
03 April 2020 11:24:18


 


It is like a religious belief with the Neo Liberal right wingers. Good to see you back Beast


Originally Posted by: Perthite1 


Same applies to head-in-the-sand liberals and those who blame the West for everything.


Still plenty of people running interference for China. Post-truth liberals are defending them even now as a weapon against the West.


Impressive actually.


We are talking about the worlds biggest and most malign nation and they get the racism/xenophobia defence - that really drives home some points.


Some even think their official statistics on corona virus are meaningful.


The one country which has acted most promptly and effectively to resist corona virus is Taiwan and they are not even allowed to be part of the WHO or be referred to by them, because of Chinese opposition.


New world order coming.
xioni2
03 April 2020 11:29:21


blah blah blah


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


The classic problem with populist nationalists is that eventually you start hating populist nationalists of other countries. Both China and the US will now ramp up the propaganda and start blaming each other for the CV19 crisis.


 

xioni2
03 April 2020 11:34:55

Based on the current evolution of the epidemic, Italy is aiming to start relaxing the lockdown from the 16th of May.

Gavin D
03 April 2020 11:45:26

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has announced a further 46 people have died taking Scotland's total to 172 



  • 1,321 people are in hospital

  • 176 are in intensive care

Brian Gaze
03 April 2020 11:46:22

Great to see Nightingale 1 open. Fantastic achievement. Now hopefully it will stand empty.




Amazing feat of Nightingale hospital's construction








https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52146227


 





Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
John p
03 April 2020 11:47:49


First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has announced a further 46 people have died taking Scotland's total to 172 



  • 1,321 people are in hospital

  • 176 are in intensive care


Originally Posted by: Gavin D 


That is a big leap for Scotland (about 33%), so doesn’t bode well for the UK total later.  We could be looking at 700+?


Camberley, Surrey
Brian Gaze
03 April 2020 11:49:45


 


That is a big leap for Scotland (about 33%), so doesn’t bode well for the UK total later.  We could be looking at 700+?


Originally Posted by: John p 


The leap in Scotland was much bigger yesterday when they announced 50 deaths.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Gavin D
03 April 2020 11:54:20

Boris still has a minor symptom (temperature) and will remain in self-isolation until it clears


 


 


 



xioni2
03 April 2020 12:06:38

176 new deaths in Germany with an increasing number of old people found dead in their homes. They are getting more confident though that their lockdown is having an impact.


"We are seeing that the spread of the virus is getting slower... it's working," said RKI president Lothar Wieler, stressing that restrictions on public life "need to be maintained" and it was too early to hail victory.


Wieler warned, however, that the number of infections and deaths due to coronavirus will continue to increase.


https://www.thelocal.de/20200403/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-germany-tops-1000

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