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Maunder Minimum
22 April 2020 07:53:56

Tests to be offered to NHS staff after initial checks suggest they were floored.

Yet another shambles. Where were these test procured.

Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


Sorry, cannot help being a pedant, but you mean "flawed" not "floored".


New world order coming.
JOHN NI
22 April 2020 07:56:25

The shipment from turkey was meant to be 400k clinical gowns. The shipment is only 2.5k.

Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


 


I've heard a number of examples mentioned where orders are reduced by powers of ten. Sometimes I wonder if orders are placed and in some distant land, the order is handed to someone that's been brought in off the street to deal with the extra workload and cant tell the difference between 25,000 and 250,000.


I'm sure zero's are being misread at times.... 


John.
The orange County of Armagh.
Brian Gaze
22 April 2020 07:59:05




They have always proved somewhat unreliable, apart from anything else taking the sample correctly is not easy.


Originally Posted by: four 


That's a good point. Many tests (e.g. cholesterol, kidney function, liver function) are blood based and taking a sample should be quite binary: either you take it or you don't. The main problem in that scenario is the potential for your sample to go missing or be mixed up with someone else's. Unfortunately that seems to happen more frequently than it should in the NHS but that's another story! In the case of corona virus the swabbing needs doing correctly and poor samples could well be compromising the accuracy of tests more than the reagents etc. I have a suspicion (and nothing more) that test accuracy is lower than is widely acknowledged. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Roger Parsons
22 April 2020 08:00:49


 Sorry, cannot help being a pedant, but you mean "flawed" not "floored".


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


A correction should be seen as a kindness, MM.


I am ashamed to say I failed to correct a friend who described himself as "on furlong". Or perhaps he just feels like that?


Roger


RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
Phil G
22 April 2020 08:10:47


 


We got a refund from Jet2 for our cancelled package holiday after asking for it on twitter.


TUI are a company we would use only if we really had to.


Easyjet only fly from Manchester in this part of the world and we hate having to use that airport.


Ryanair would only be used if every other airline went bust LOL!


Originally Posted by: westv 


Good luck with TUI! Everyone has their own experiences but after ours last Summer we would not touch them with a barge pole. 

four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
22 April 2020 08:11:37
https://infekt.ch/2020/04/sind-wir-tatsaechlich-im-blindflug/ 
(chrome will translate)
The conclusion is that distancing and stopping gatherings before lockdowns worked surprisingly well on it's own, after that gains were minimal
Heavy Weather 2013
22 April 2020 08:23:22


 


Good luck with TUI! Everyone has their own experiences but after ours last Summer we would not touch them with a barge pole. 


Originally Posted by: Phil G 


I used Thomas Cook last summer to attend my mums wedding to Turkey. It wasn't a surprise to me at all that they went under. Terrible airline.


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
The Beast from the East
22 April 2020 08:27:53




They have always proved somewhat unreliable, apart from anything else taking the sample correctly is not easy.


Originally Posted by: four 


Yes, on CNN their resident doctor Sanjay Gupta did a test live on air and it looked very invasive and uncomfortable. They stuck this stick right up his nose all the way back and then another down his thrown to the point he started convulsing. 


That's the proper way to get enough potential virus material. I suspect a lot of these tests are not being done properly


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
22 April 2020 08:30:53


 


That's a good point. Many tests (e.g. cholesterol, kidney function, liver function) are blood based and taking a sample should be quite binary: either you take it or you don't. The main problem in that scenario is the potential for your sample to go missing or be mixed up with someone else's. Unfortunately that seems to happen more frequently than it should in the NHS but that's another story! In the case of corona virus the swabbing needs doing correctly and poor samples could well be compromising the accuracy of tests more than the reagents etc. I have a suspicion (and nothing more) that test accuracy is lower than is widely acknowledged. 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


30% false negatives according to this article.


Coronavirus: how accurate are coronavirus tests?


"No test is 100% accurate. Although tests can perform well in ideal laboratory conditions, in real life lots of other factors affect accuracy including the timing of the test, how the swab was taken, and the handling of the specimen.


Early on in the novel coronavirus outbreak, doctors started reporting cases of people who had coronavirus which had been missed by swab tests – also known as “false negatives”. We don’t know for sure how often these false negatives occur in the UK, but evidence from China suggests up to 30 out of every 100 people with coronavirus might test negative."


https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-how-accurate-are-coronavirus-tests-135972


 


Rob
In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.
The Beast from the East
22 April 2020 08:31:43

The shipment from turkey was meant to be 400k clinical gowns. The shipment is only 2.5k.

Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


Heard this on the radio news, yet they don't mention the missing cargo


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
NickR
22 April 2020 08:33:11
To those who think we need to wait to see who has had the best strategy, I would say: no. The countries that looked to eliminate this - NZ, Aus, SK - are, in every scenario, in the right. This article spells this out well:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/22/flattening-curve-new-zealand-coronavirus 

Crunching the coronavirus curve is better than flattening it, as New Zealand is showing
Devi Sridhar

As Sars-CoV-2 has spread across the world, some countries have reacted with alarm and thorough preparations, given their previous experiences with Mers or Sars. In these countries, such as South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Vietnam, containment of the novel coronavirus became the imperative, regardless of cost. However, other countries chose to treat it like a bad flu strain that would be unstoppable and spread across the population until some kind of immunity was reached.

Much of the difference in countries’ initial responses can be attributed to whether they “overreacted”, given prior experience with two other more deadly coronaviruses, or whether they perceived the novel coronavirus from the start as just posing a moderate to low risk to their populations and eventually becoming endemic.

In the UK, the assumption until quite recently had seemed to be the latter. The containment phase ended on 12 March. At this point, testing ended for all those with minor symptoms (including frontline health staff), contact tracing stopped, airports remained open without checks on incoming flights or passengers, and physical distancing measures were ruled out. Large events involving tens of thousands of people went ahead a few days later, and non-essential travel continued. After considerable public pressure, lockdown measures were introduced on 23 March with the goal of keeping the coronavirus-related burden on health services within NHS capacity.

Where are we now? According to official figures, 16,509 people with Covid-19 have so far died in British hospitals. There are no official statistics for deaths in the community, but ONS data released today shows that of 6,200 Covid-19-related deaths in the week to 10 April, one in six of them happened outside hospital. We are on track for 40,000 deaths by just the end of the first wave of this outbreak, while also having to cope with the astronomical economic costs and heart-rending social implications of being in lockdown for weeks on end.

In a significant number of confirmed Covid cases, the health outcomes are severe, the disease can result in multiple organ failure and long-term lung damage, and the clinical need of patients for oxygen, ICU care and ventilators is much higher. Early clinical management of symptoms, to which Boris Johnson had access, means that outcomes are generally better, but that requires testing at an early stage of the disease.

New Zealand is in the enviable position of having fewer than 20 deaths, while Australia has managed to stay under 100. With early physical distancing measures and border control, and aggressive testing, tracing and isolating procedures in place, these countries are in a better position to ease lockdown earlier and get their economy and society going again, while keeping Covid-19-related deaths low. That’s as close to a win-win situation as a government can have right now.

However, when these international comparisons are made, some in government say that it is still too early to say how countries are performing, and others say that all countries will be in the same place, and any variation will depend on their healthcare capacity. It is worth thinking through the long-term scenarios for the future of Covid-19.

The first scenario: if we have an effective, safe and available vaccine or antiviral in the next 18 months, the countries that minimised loss of life with the least harsh economic restrictions will be in the best position. Australia, New Zealand and numerous east Asian countries have the outbreak under control and can in the short term manage the trickle of cases while waiting for the scientific solution.

The second scenario: in the absence of a vaccine or antiviral, some kind of population immunity will be built up so that the virus is not actively transmitting at a high level. This assumes that having the coronavirus leads to immunity for at least two or three years and that subsequent reinfection is mild. Even in this situation, the countries with low numbers of cases can wait for ongoing research on better identification of who is exactly “vulnerable” to developing severe symptoms, and shield these individuals so the burden on ICU care and loss of life are kept to a minimum. While we have some basic idea at population level about who is vulnerable, based on age and pre-existing conditions, scientists do not understand the individual genetic or immunological factors yet.

The third (worst-case) scenario: research might find that there is no lasting immunity to the virus, or in fact immune enhancement, which means subsequent reinfections would be more severe (similar to dengue). This creates a real case for countries with the capacity to eliminate the virus and keep in place border controls . Obviously the fewer cases present, the easier it is to eliminate a virus, and in this situation a precautionary approach to letting it spread through the population would have been well warranted.

In short, there are huge gaps in what we know about this virus, including about immunity, about the possibility and timeline for a vaccine or antiviral therapy, about who exactly is vulnerable, and about long-term health implications. For example, Italian scientists have warned that some patients are developing Guillain-Barré syndrome (temporary paralysis) as a side effect of Covid-19.

In this uncertainty, countries that are actively working to contain this virus and keep numbers as low as possible are buying time to build a more informed policy response while also protecting their economies and societies. Others, by letting the virus spread slowly through their populations (only flattening the curve instead of completely stopping the spread), are just gambling with people’s lives, and will be caught in cycles of lockdown/release that will destroy the economy and cause social unrest, as well as increased Covid-19- and non-Covid-19-related deaths.

• Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh
Nick
Durham
[email protected]
Brian Gaze
22 April 2020 08:33:23


 


I used Thomas Cook last summer to attend my mums wedding to Turkey. It wasn't a surprise to me at all that they went under. Terrible airline.


Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


Went on a Thomas Cook flight about 10 years ago. By far the worst of my life. Packed like sardines with the backs of the seats hollowed out to try and create a cm or two of extra space for the passengers in the row behind. After landing there was a round of applause and even some "whooping" from passengers. It took ages to disembark and conditions would have been perfect for a virus to circulate. The only amusing anecdote was we were sitting a couple of rows away from a former England cricket captain. Despite that I said to my wife, "Never again!". 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
The Beast from the East
22 April 2020 08:35:09


 


30% false negatives according to this article.


Coronavirus: how accurate are coronavirus tests?


"No test is 100% accurate. Although tests can perform well in ideal laboratory conditions, in real life lots of other factors affect accuracy including the timing of the test, how the swab was taken, and the handling of the specimen.


Early on in the novel coronavirus outbreak, doctors started reporting cases of people who had coronavirus which had been missed by swab tests – also known as “false negatives”. We don’t know for sure how often these false negatives occur in the UK, but evidence from China suggests up to 30 out of every 100 people with coronavirus might test negative."


https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-how-accurate-are-coronavirus-tests-135972


 


Originally Posted by: RobN 


After watching how a swab should properly be taken, I'm not surprised people are avoiding getting one done! I certainly wouldn't want some Nurse Trunchbull shoving a stick up my nose and down my throat


Looked awful


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
NickR
22 April 2020 08:40:17


About a month ago I mentioned pulse oximeters and hypothesised they could be useful in tracking a corona virus infection at home. The Times today has an article suggesting the same thing:


Coronavirus: Finger-clip device gives warning on oxygen level


A simple device that monitors oxygen levels at home could help to identify people who are falling severely ill with Covid-19, doctors have said.


Experts are concerned that significant numbers are not receiving care quickly enough, which leads to a hard-to-detect form of viral pneumonia.


Richard Levitan, an American doctor, said that the volume of patients who need a ventilator could be reduced if people with symptoms such as fever and cough monitored themselves using pulse oximeters. These are small devices that clip on a finger to measure oxygen levels in the blood.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-finger-clip-device-gives-warning-on-oxygen-level-v35qkzz0p


They can be bought relatively cheaply from Amazon. Non-referral link here:


https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=pulse+oximeter&ref=nb_sb_noss_2


 


If you buy one there is guidance on what is normal here:


https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/hypoxemia/basics/definition/sym-20050930


In summary from the Mayo Clinic: Normal pulse oximeter readings usually range from 95 to 100 percent. Values under 90 percent are considered low.


 


 


 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Yep. I bought one about a month ago after reading some horrendous updates from someone I engage with a lot on Twitter about O2 levels (he had CV-19 - 36 days on, he's just had a reactivation too).


Nick
Durham
[email protected]
The Beast from the East
22 April 2020 08:40:34


https://apple.news/AfKCXM-cwSi6c3t2C8waL_w


British coronavirus PPE that will be exported after UK fails to buy


EXCLUSIVE: Printers Prime Group, of Nottingham, transformed its operation and took on 30 extra staff ready to make up to one million visors a month, which is 35,000 a day - but the firm is frustrated that despite contacting officials a month ago, no orders have been placed



This is the print company I’m working for and the PPE we’re making. Looks like the Mirror’s onto us!  


Originally Posted by: Caz 


Are the scales finally falling from your eyes that you voted for a bunch of lying Charlatans?


 


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
xioni2
22 April 2020 08:43:54


https://apple.news/AfKCXM-cwSi6c3t2C8waL_w


British coronavirus PPE that will be exported after UK fails to buy


EXCLUSIVE: Printers Prime Group, of Nottingham, transformed its operation and took on 30 extra staff ready to make up to one million visors a month, which is 35,000 a day - but the firm is frustrated that despite contacting officials a month ago, no orders have been placed


This is the print company I’m working for and the PPE we’re making. Looks like the Mirror’s onto us!  


Originally Posted by: Caz 


There seem to be so many similar stories of UK companies contacting HMG, getting nowhere and selling abroad. The govt should have setup a proper task force back in early March, but they seem better at lying instead of organising things.


 

Phil G
22 April 2020 08:46:46


 


Went on a Thomas Cook flight about 10 years ago. By far the worst of my life. Packed like sardines with the backs of the seats hollowed out to try and create a cm or two of extra space for the passengers in the row behind. After landing there was a round of applause and even some "whooping" from passengers. It took ages to disembark and conditions would have been perfect for a virus to circulate. The only amusing anecdote was we were sitting a couple of rows away from a former England cricket captain. Despite that I said to my wife, "Never again!". 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Sorry Brian but that bit made me laugh.

Heavy Weather 2013
22 April 2020 08:48:21


Stray email meant UK did not join EU scheme - care minister






Care minister Helen Whately says it is "very frustrating" that "an email went astray" meaning the UK did not participate in an EU scheme to source medical equipment.


On Tuesday, a senior civil servant retracted claims the UK had taken a "political decision" not to join the scheme.


Whately told BBC Radio 4's Today programme it was a "communication error".


The MP also said it is "really troubling" not as many people in the UK are being tested for coronavirus as could be.


She said the UK has the capacity to carry out 40,000 tests per day but on Tuesday only 18,000 were tested.


Whately said the government will try to improve the access to tests by increasing mobile testing units and sending out home testing kits to NHS and care workers.


___


How does an e-mail go astray. Funny how the senior civil servant has suddenly retracted their statement.


This statement also suggests that Whatley is heaping more pressure onto Hancock - his allies seem to be dwindling by the minute. 


His target of a 100k was always going to end in tears.




Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
Heavy Weather 2013
22 April 2020 08:50:51


 


There seem to be so many similar stories of UK companies contacting HMG, getting nowhere and selling abroad. The govt should have setup a proper task force back in early March, but they seem better at lying instead of organising things.


 


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Yes, and encouraging people to attend mass gatherings like lambs to the slaughter.


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
xioni2
22 April 2020 08:55:56

FT analysis sees UK coronavirus death toll at 41,000


The coronavirus pandemic has already caused as many as 41,000 deaths in the UK, according to a Financial Times analysis of the latest data from the Office for National Statistics.


https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab

xioni2
22 April 2020 09:00:54



In this uncertainty, countries that are actively working to contain this virus and keep numbers as low as possible are buying time to build a more informed policy response while also protecting their economies and societies. Others, by letting the virus spread slowly through their populations (only flattening the curve instead of completely stopping the spread), are just gambling with people’s lives, and will be caught in cycles of lockdown/release that will destroy the economy and cause social unrest, as well as increased Covid-19- and non-Covid-19-related deaths.

Originally Posted by: NickR 


This should be a no brainer, but there seems to be a severe lack of brains.


 

Gandalf The White
22 April 2020 09:01:31




Stray email meant UK did not join EU scheme - care minister






Care minister Helen Whately says it is "very frustrating" that "an email went astray" meaning the UK did not participate in an EU scheme to source medical equipment.


On Tuesday, a senior civil servant retracted claims the UK had taken a "political decision" not to join the scheme.


Whately told BBC Radio 4's Today programme it was a "communication error".


The MP also said it is "really troubling" not as many people in the UK are being tested for coronavirus as could be.


She said the UK has the capacity to carry out 40,000 tests per day but on Tuesday only 18,000 were tested.


Whately said the government will try to improve the access to tests by increasing mobile testing units and sending out home testing kits to NHS and care workers.


___


How does an e-mail go astray. Funny how the senior civil servant has suddenly retracted their statement.


This statement also suggests that Whatley is heaping more pressure onto Hancock - his allies seem to be dwindling by the minute. 


His target of a 100k was always going to end in tears.




Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


 


It's a pack of lies and all embarrassingly amateurish.  They'd have had half a chance if they'd stuck rigidly to one fabrication but it's now just pathetic.


The reality is probably that an edict went out from our New Brexit Party government that any incoming emails from the EU not clearly related to Brexit should be deleted.


 


Anyway, the mail excuse is a feeble red herring because the UK attended the meeting at which this was discussed.


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Brian Gaze
22 April 2020 09:11:20


FT analysis sees UK coronavirus death toll at 41,000


The coronavirus pandemic has already caused as many as 41,000 deaths in the UK, according to a Financial Times analysis of the latest data from the Office for National Statistics.


https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab


Originally Posted by: xioni2 


Worth highlighting what Vallance said. Presumably it is what the UK government was aiming at.


UK coronavirus death toll of 20,000 'a good outcome', says chief scientific adviser


Sir Patrick Vallance hopeful that Government's 'extreme' demands on public could cut mortality rate


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/17/governments-hopeful-scenario-20000-people-will-die-coronavirus/


 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Brian Gaze
22 April 2020 09:16:15

Hopefully a journalist will nail the government minister at this afternoon's "briefing".




Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
xioni2
22 April 2020 09:21:23

 However, other countries chose to treat it like a bad flu strain that would be unstoppable and spread across the population until some kind of immunity was reached.

Originally Posted by: Devi Sridhar 


This comes again and again. The 2016 pandemic exercise was based on a flu pandemic and from various documents released we also know that most of our pandemic preparedness is also based around a flu pandemic and largely assumes it cannot be stopped and it should be mitigated instead (flatten the curve etc.).


What I don't understand is that the WHO had already named this virus SARS II (SARS-CoV-2) already back at the end of January and all experts knew that we are dealing with a new SARS virus. SARS I had been contained and this time too by late February we already had evidence of several Asian countries containing this new SARS virus too.


Why on Earth did we then assume that this cannot be contained and we stopped community testing and tracing on 12 March? Can we really have such a toxic mix of incompetence and arrogance?


Yes, we can.


 


 

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