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White Meadows
18 December 2022 22:47:03

I think the 12z EPS are slightly less cold than this morning. But yet again we have a det run that is completely out of kilter with the ensemble runs, most notably on Christmas Day itself. This has happened a lot very recently. 

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Originally Posted by: Joe Bloggs 


Maybe the fact the models have ‘learned’ to predict the lack of data on 25-26th every year?
 
moomin75
19 December 2022 06:22:38

which data points were wrong on GFS for it to be highly erroneous? Honestly it might be wrong but to say it’s erroneous is plain stupid

Originally Posted by: ballamar 

Look up the word erroneous.​​​​​​​It means "wrong" based on false and wrong it was.​​​​​​​ 
In terms of false data, well, I don't know what the starting parameters were, but clearly there was false data. That is hardly in doubt seeing as GFS was completely isolated set against other models.
And I see it has come around to a similar scenario to the others now.
Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
doctormog
19 December 2022 06:30:48

Look up the word erroneous.​​​​​​​It means "wrong" and wrong it was.​​​​​​​   

Originally Posted by: moomin75 



It was wrong? For this morning or yesterday? It cannot be stated that it was wrong for a date in the future.

Anyway as for what the models are actually showing, there’s still not much more clarity for the Christmas period. Today looks very mild with the mildness moderating over the following few days to around average in southern parts and below in more northern areas. The uncertainty is however very large from around Thursday or Friday with the potential for anything from mild wet and very windy to a White Christmas.
Brian Gaze
19 December 2022 06:58:13
All of the models will be wrong for Christmas Day. The questions are:

1) Which will be closest to the outcome?

2) How close to the outcome will it be?
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
nsrobins
19 December 2022 07:01:54
Even more disparity this morning for the 5-7 day period than normal. As an example GEM and GFS are about as different as they can be.
Actual conditions on 25th Dec as Michael says could be anything from mild and windy to cold and frosty. UKM printed forecast going for the former but it’s based on EC most likely which could move to GFS and maybe has done a bit this morning. 
All needs resolving. 
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Jiries
19 December 2022 07:39:56

All of the models will be wrong for Christmas Day. The questions are:

1) Which will be closest to the outcome?

2) How close to the outcome will it be?

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 



100% useless all of them but go back to the past will be 100% correct to predict the outcome of either mild or cold air will come for sure.  
Whether Idle
19 December 2022 07:52:21
A sift through the GEFS reveals all chaos colliding in some quite unusual ways.  To my eye the tendency for high or mid latitude blocking in the NE Atlantic is reducing the confidence in the NWP and is producing a greater than usual spread of possibilities with more colder interludes than we have been used to, a distinct possibility. Interesting times.
Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
19 December 2022 08:02:01

WX temp charts move from a position in week 1 where all of W Europe is above norm for December (bar N Scandinavia) to week 2 where the cold air has come back from the east as far as the Balkans, E France and the Scottish Highlands though probably mostly close to seasonal norm. A fairly narrow band of coldish air for Britain and W France, with only Spain and W Med anything like mild. Rain/snow on the Atlantic penetrating to Poland on week 1, retreating W-wards in week 2 with only Spain and extreme W of Ireland affected, also a patch in Turkey.

JET - well defined but narrow and weak stream across England to Tue 27th, after which fragmented with no pattern.

GFS Op - current LP moving NE past Scotland, 980mb Rockall Wed 21st, dragging a second one in its wake 985mb Sat 24th with Arctic NE-lies on their NW edge, but the said Arctic air never quite establishing over more than N Scotland. Pressure then rises with ridge from Iceland to Italy Tue 27th, mild for W and cool for E. This  slowly declines SE-wards, to Italy 1030mb Wed 4th, with SW-lies for Britain. There's a large cold pool of air associated with an LP over E Russia for much of the period.

ECM - similar to GFS but the LP Sat 24th is slower to clear and brings cold air further S than GFS does. The N-ward extent of HP on Thu 29th is more limited, never reaching Iceland.

GEFS - for England with one extra dip (Wed 21st) en route, temps decline at a different rate in different ens members to a reasonably well defined minimum Wed 28th (5-8C below norm), rising irregularly to mild by Wed 4th (control on its own but otherwise fair agreement at this range). Damp to Christmas Day, drier afterwards. In Scotland, more agreement on temps dropping before Christmas with most pptn around Chritmas Day; very good chance of snow.
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
fairweather
19 December 2022 08:16:14
I was a bit worried when I read there was going to be a 20C jump in temperatures today. I thought for a minute TWO had been hacked by the Daily Express till I realised it was referring to the somewhat non-standard stat of the lowest minimum to the highest maximum. Of course even that is an unusually big jump. Just hope the Essex plebs aren't out in their shorts again expecting 21C today 🙂
S.Essex, 42m ASL
Brian Gaze
19 December 2022 08:18:47

It is hard to bet against ecm operational run it does have the best verification stats with ukmo second

Originally Posted by: TomC 



Which one: Today's 00z or yesterday's 12z? 

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Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Windy Willow
19 December 2022 08:30:07

Which one: Today's 00z or yesterday's 12z? 

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Can I pick todays? Thanks 😁
South Holland, Lincs 5m/16ft ASL

Don't feed the Trolls!! When starved of attention they return to their dark caves or the dark recesses of bridges and will turn back to stone, silent again!
White Meadows
19 December 2022 08:34:51
Any sort of High lat Blocking looking a distant memory/ mirage at best for the moment. 
Think we need to take note of the Met office narrative as we trend milder into the final 3rd of December and the new year. 
 
Brian Gaze
19 December 2022 08:41:22

Any sort of High lat Blocking looking a distant memory/ mirage at best for the moment. 
Think we need to take note of the Met office narrative as we trend milder into the final 3rd of December and the new year. 
 

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 



Still looks quite interesting to me. I'll pay less attention once the discussion moves to SSWs.
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
idj20
19 December 2022 09:25:10
Last Friday, when I issued my own weekly end-of-week "Farmers Forecast" where I cover the medium range outlook for my home county of Kent in a bit more depth, I mentioned about Christmas Day likely to be "damp and murky but mild with lighter winds" based on a slackening col-like feature forming over the southern portion of the UK, seems that there is little need for me to deviate from that as things stand. I'd probably be singing a different tune if I was living at The Highlands, though. 
Folkestone Harbour. 
TomC
  • TomC
  • Advanced Member
19 December 2022 09:32:37
Both are equally likely to be right I am sure you understand statistics well enough to understand that
Rob K
19 December 2022 09:36:30

Any sort of High lat Blocking looking a distant memory/ mirage at best for the moment. 
Think we need to take note of the Met office narrative as we trend milder into the final 3rd of December and the new year. 
 

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 



Looks like quite a lot of northern blocking on the GFS this morning to me. 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Gusty
19 December 2022 09:43:49
It all seems very plausible to me to expect divergence at 168 hours when there is a bolder of high pressure in the middle of the normally fast flowing stream. Those with an ounce of meteorological understanding will understand this and expect disparity as they get to grips as to where the energy will divert too, be it from the north or the south.

Jiries, sort it out mate, study the models closely and look at the bigger picture before making such odd posts. Learn your subject. 

GFS mean for Christmas Day -
https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=gfs&var=2&time=156&run=0&lid=AVG&h=0&mv=0&tr=6 

ECM mean for Christmas Day - 
https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=ecm&var=2&run=0&time=144&lid=AVG&h=0&mv=0&tr=24#mapref 
Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/stevewall69/ 



Brian Gaze
19 December 2022 09:45:48

Both are equally likely to be right I am sure you understand statistics well enough to understand that

Originally Posted by: TomC 



Surely the one with a lead time 12 hours shorter is more likely to be correct. In fact, today's GFS 00z is probably just as likely or more likely to be accurate at the same time as yesterday's ECM 12z. 
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
squish
19 December 2022 10:21:38
Cold air floods south on xmas day on the 06z
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
ballamar
19 December 2022 10:21:39
Well I am liking the look of GFS 6z am sure the chart at 180h would have generated some excitement in the past. 
Gary L
19 December 2022 10:24:58

Any sort of High lat Blocking looking a distant memory/ mirage at best for the moment. 
Think we need to take note of the Met office narrative as we trend milder into the final 3rd of December and the new year. 
 

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 



For the Manchester area it looks milder this week, then trending colder again potentially around Christmas. After that it's anyones guess. The met office text forecast for early January is low confidence but does still state a greater likelihood of cold spells than normal.
squish
19 December 2022 10:27:13
Might squeeze an easterly in the run up to new year from this one......and yesterday we had extreme mild air from the Azores at the same time!  Very uncertain but certainly interesting....
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
squish
19 December 2022 10:31:08
All because the big xmas low in the US runs up the west side  of Greenland rather than pushing its energy underneath
D.E.W on Dartmoor. 300m asl
nsrobins
19 December 2022 10:31:52

Might squeeze an easterly in the run up to new year from this one......and yesterday we had extreme mild air from the Azores at the same time!  Very uncertain but certainly interesting....

Originally Posted by: squish 


GFS is sniffing something and won't let the new Azores low/ridging heights into Scandinavia idea go will it? When mostly all other NWP isn't interested you have to give it very litlle credence but it's an interesting battle developing.
 
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Gandalf The White
19 December 2022 10:45:16

All because the big xmas low in the US runs up the west side  of Greenland rather than pushing its energy underneath

Originally Posted by: squish 



It just proves the point that just because there’s a large temperature contrast across North America, it doesn’t mean that LP systems will always drive eastwards across the Atlantic and bring us mild, changeable weather.  It’s all about the jet stream.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


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