Remove ads from site

Gandalf The White
27 December 2023 21:15:25
Today’s ECM ensemble for 10hPa wind shows a flip back, with the mean now back above zero, ie no reversal.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


tierradelfuego
27 December 2023 21:17:56

Today’s ECM ensemble for 10hPa wind shows a flip back, with the mean now back above zero, ie no reversal.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 



flipping unbelievable, but quelle surprise in reality
Bucklebury
West Berkshire Downs AONB
135m ASL

VP2 with daytime FARS
Rainfall collector separated at ground level
Anemometer separated above roof level
WeatherLink Live (Byles Green Weather)
Gandalf The White
27 December 2023 21:24:04

flipping unbelievable, but quelle surprise in reality

Originally Posted by: tierradelfuego 



Actually the forecast is just back to where it was 3-4 days ago.  I should have mentioned that the minimum is now a couple of days earlier as well.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Ally Pally Snowman
27 December 2023 21:50:07

A week 2 January cold spell is  probably not going to happen IMHO as shown. It’s way too far off to be paying more than casual attention and as we get closer the Azores high will nose in and be more influential. ,,,Maybe a second bite in week 3 of the month once background factors  have had a chance to percolate into the troposphere ?

Originally Posted by: Whether Idle 



I'm actually quite positive for some decent cold week 2 ish of January.  Both ECM and GFS ensembles look good after about the 7th. And both the Met Office and BBC monthly forecast offer some optimism. That's much better than it normally is.
 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
ballamar
27 December 2023 21:59:14

I'm actually quite positive for some decent cold week 2 ish of January.  Both ECM and GFS ensembles look good after about the 7th. And both the Met Office and BBC monthly forecast offer some optimism. That's much better than it normally is.
 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 



indeed there is always an element of doubt with Euro/Azores high but much to be optimistic.Although anything too long cannot be expected! Enjoy the chase 
Rob K
27 December 2023 22:32:50
12Z ECM is pretty rubbish for any cold prospects with southerlies by day 10
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Polar Low
27 December 2023 22:46:30

Looks like it’s going to be a long hard chase looking at the ecm members
Ok many cold at the surface at around the 10th for London but many options on the table at 500 after looking at every other member.
I suspect more than usual a lot to be resolved before we get anywhere near that date.

Btw what happened to the record mild start to January just 48 hours ago
https://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwfens_table.php?x=0&y=0&lat=51.5085&lon=-0.12574&run=12&ext=1&mode=7&sort=0 
 At this stage of the game momentum is the key word.
DPower
27 December 2023 22:59:31

flipping unbelievable, but quelle surprise in reality

Originally Posted by: tierradelfuego 


The reduction on reversals started on the 12z eps yesterday and has continued today along with the ecm 46 with what was approx 80% now down to less than 20%. It does not mean it can not flip though. Also the split that looked very promising three or four days back looks far less noticeable as well, the vortex recovering in the mid to longer range. Again this trend could reverse back again we shall see. 
What we do have though is a much reduced zonal wind which itself could be enough to encourage more in the way of colder blocked set ups.
Retron
28 December 2023 06:44:21
Here's today's ensemble watch. There's no beating about the bush, it's been downhill since yesterday's post, with the reversal now gone from the ECM46 and a corresponding reduction in very cold ensemble members. There's still enough interest to keep it going for now, however.

https://charts.ecmwf.int/products/extended-zonal-mean-zonal-wind?area=nh&base_time=202312270000 

https://ukwct.org.uk/weather/enswatch.jpg? 
UserPostedImage
Leysdown, north Kent
Ally Pally Snowman
28 December 2023 06:59:31
Yep the GEFS have taken a step back this morning from a decent cold outbreak.  I imagine the fact a SSW isn't happening now has something to do with it.

Pretty good ECM though this morning so still some hope just about.
 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
28 December 2023 07:49:03
WX summary for week 1 still showing most of Europe mild for the time of year with some really cold weather as before in Finland and N Russia. The extension of cold weather shown yesterday for week 2 has been scaled back; it's definitely cooler but the freezing weather now only reaching Poland and higher ground elsewhere in Europe (incl Scotland), and not backed up by ultra-cold weather in the far north. Pptn for the Atlantic (Britain and France) and across to the Baltic in week1, this area moving to the S France and along the N Mediterranean in week 2 though some remains to plague the far W of Britain. 

GDS Op - Storm Gerrit taking its time to clear to the E, and replaced by another storm 965mb Galway Sat 30th crossing N England on the Sunday. This fades for a day but revives 965mb Aberdeen Tue 2nd. All these are 'dartboard' LPs; the next LP Fri 5th 975mb Hebrides is more of an extended W-E trough but manages to drag in some NE-lies before pressure rises over Britain, a ridge at 1035 mb covering the whole country Wed 10th before toppling and allowing SW-lies to start up.

JET running weakly mostly near or S of England, and amost dead Thu 4th before forming a loop to match the HP above.

ECM - brings in the LP on the 30th but moves it N-ward to Rockall. One portion then breaks off and deepens as it moves SE-wards to Denmark while the rest, rather flabbier, settles 985mb Isle of Man Thu 4th and drifts slowly SE-wards, filling, looking cold but no NE-ly link. Some pressure rise from the W Sun 7th, earlier than on GFS.

GEFS - mean temp and most ens members hovering around norm until Fri 5th when a wide divergence either side of norm develops, op and control separately taking dips on the cold side.  Rain in the S fairly heavy in most ens members w/b Sat 30th (or tomorrow in the W), drier in most runs but by no means all after that, Snow row figures for sea level locations in the north around 30-40%, negligible in the S.

 
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Gandalf The White
28 December 2023 08:14:25

Yep the GEFS have taken a step back this morning from a decent cold outbreak.  I imagine the fact a SSW isn't happening now has something to do with it.

Pretty good ECM though this morning so still some hope just about.
 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 



The SSW is still forecast to happen, it’s just expected to be a little weaker. But it’s still more than a week away and the effects, if any, on the troposphere aren’t immediate.  For that reason I’ve not been convinced the blocking we’ve seen in the charts is linked.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


White Meadows
28 December 2023 08:28:32
People need to be reminded that SSW events can also produce benign or even much milder than average conditions for the UK, as per Feb 23 being so bland. 
Gandalf The White
28 December 2023 08:32:55

People need to be reminded that SSW events can also produce benign or even much milder than average conditions for the UK, as per Feb 23 being so bland. 

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 



I think most people understand that there’s no guarantee that a SSW will produce a cold, let alone severe cold.  But it is likely to change the pattern, and an end of the recent incessant wind and rain would be a good result.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Nick Gilly
28 December 2023 08:35:01
Or the record-breaking temperatures of >21C in February 2019.
Ally Pally Snowman
28 December 2023 08:44:58
I think there is plenty we don't fully understand about SSW and their relationship with the troposphere.  But we do know it can make favourable blocking for cold more likely but not likely.  And that can happen pretty quickly or take months. 

The best news of the day though is the ECM ensembles still look  very good post 7th.


 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Rob K
28 December 2023 08:45:39
The snow cover charts on the 0Z Gfs pretty much sum up winter in England. A brief cold incursion manages to provide snow cover across Scotland and all of France, all the way down to the Med, but the southern half of Britain remains resolutely snow free. 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Bolty
28 December 2023 09:08:06
My understanding of SSWs is a bit like doing a reboot to fix a problem with software. Sometimes it fixes it, sometimes it does nothing. In essence, that is basically what they do - more or less a complete reset of the northern hemisphere pattern. Personally, I think people cling too much on the example of the January 2013 SSW and the very cold late winter and early spring that followed. Yes, it certainly can happen (as it did that year), however I would say that such cases are very much in the minority. It's also important to stress that if you're already in a generally cold pattern, an SSW can actually be the last thing you want, as the whole "reset" thing can actually knock you out of the cold pattern.

At the moment though, I personally welcome this. I'm pretty indifferent to cold and snowy weather, but anything that offers a hope of just shifting this hideously wet, dull and windy pattern is fine by me. As I mentioned, it's never a guarantee, but we've hardly got much to lose at the moment. The second half of December has been the absolute pits around here.
Scott
Blackrod, Lancashire (4 miles south of Chorley) at 156m asl.
My weather station 
marco 79
28 December 2023 09:42:40
The US has so far had a benign start to the winter. But that looks set to change 2nd week of Jan as frigid artic air sweeps south down as far as the Gulf states..From past experience this usually puts the jet into overdrive
Home : Mid Leicestershire ...135m ASL
CField
28 December 2023 09:52:21

The US has so far had a benign start to the winter. But that looks set to change 2nd week of Jan as frigid artic air sweeps south down as far as the Gulf states..From past experience this usually puts the jet into overdrive

Originally Posted by: marco 79 

yes I saw that but in turn saw the Eastern edge throwing up a lot of warm uppers like the hurricane effect so maybe it will work in our favour for once....
Favourite snowstorm
Famous channel low
Dec 31st 1978
Hastings East Sussex
Foot of level snow severe drifting
Next day max temp -4 degrees Celsius
Retron
28 December 2023 10:02:09

My understanding of SSWs is a bit like doing a reboot to fix a problem with software. Sometimes it fixes it, sometimes it does nothing. In essence, that is basically what they do - more or less a complete reset of the northern hemisphere pattern. Personally, I think people cling too much on the example of the January 2013 SSW and the very cold late winter and early spring that followed. .

Originally Posted by: Bolty 


There's a list of major SSWs on Wikipedia, so it's easy enough to cross-reference - but bear in mind you'll have a different list of snowy winters to me, as living here in Kent we rely on Scandinavian Highs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_stratospheric_warming 

In the first half of the 80s, they seemed to more often than not lead to a colder spell (with sleet or snow) anywhere from a week to 3 weeks later. In one case (1987), it seems to have happened immediately after a cold spell - perhaps the blocking led to feedback which disrupted the vortex.
In the latter half of the 80s, nothing - and the same for the two (seems low) that happened in the 90s. In the 2000s? Not much at all from them. 2010 saw one after the cold spell in January (in the same was 1987 did), then we have 2013 and 2018, both of which led to a cold spell (and in 2018's case, a record-breakingly cold one). After that - nothing much.

All in all, a thoroughly mixed bag. I think the "roll the dice" analogy is a good one, and given the parlous state of the weather at the moment - I would grab that opportunity with both hands. I can't think of worse winter weather than gales, rain and exceptionally mild temperatures, so literally anything else would be better.

Note, however, that the above all refers to major SSWs, i.e. reversals at 60N. The modelling has only shown a mean reversal once (the ECM of a couple days back), with the most likely event just a displacement, or a minor warming.

(The terminology really needs to be looked at IMO, as a major SSW and a minor SSW are quite different events, despite both being called SSWs. A complete reversal could do with having a new name, I think!)
Leysdown, north Kent
David M Porter
28 December 2023 10:16:25

The US has so far had a benign start to the winter. But that looks set to change 2nd week of Jan as frigid artic air sweeps south down as far as the Gulf states..From past experience this usually puts the jet into overdrive

Originally Posted by: marco 79 



The problem has been that even with a lack of notable cold in the US recently, the atlantic jet has still been in overdrive in the past three weeks or so.
Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
warrenb
28 December 2023 10:27:48
Well one thing you can say for the GFS, new year looks horrible and rain is forecast beyond.
Rob K
28 December 2023 10:59:41
“Rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated” – the polar vortex
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Joe Bloggs
28 December 2023 11:07:21
Such drama across the weather forums the past couple of days! 

Whilst the uncertainty of the “background signals” remain - you’re best off sticking to the ensemble data rather than individual op runs. 

EPS still trending cold.

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/ens_image.php?geoid=48970&var=201&run=0&date=2023-12-28&model=ecm&member=ENS&bw=1 

UserPostedImage

 

Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

Users browsing this topic
    Ads