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Retron
07 January 2024 08:57:58
The ECM's own ensemble generator is down, but looking at the spaghetti on MC shows this morning's were a marked downgrade, yet again, on last night's. A higher mean for "round two" and much more scatter... hard to pin anything down, really, but my gut instinct remains that we in the south won't see much from the second round.

It'll be nice when this is resolved one way or another, but I feel we'll have to wait a few days for that!

UserPostedImage
https://images.meteociel.fr/im/26/26589/graphe_ens3_04jcx8.php.gif 
Leysdown, north Kent
Ally Pally Snowman
07 January 2024 09:03:51
Yes definitely a drift away this morning but enough scatter to keep the hope. Will the Met Office change their long ranger which remains quite wintry? 

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?geoid=50893&model=ecm&var=2&run=00&lid=ENS&bw=1 

The 12s need to stop the rot later please.
 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
warrenb
07 January 2024 09:05:40
As said above, still to be resolved but I think the issue is that the split becomes a displacement. As the Canadian portion just gets amoliated and the issue is if the displacement of the Eurasian lobe doesn't get displaced far enough then off scoots the high either to Canada or to the arctic. 
Jiries
07 January 2024 09:13:24

Yes definitely a drift away this morning but enough scatter to keep the hope. Will the Met Office change their long ranger which remains quite wintry? 

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?geoid=50893&model=ecm&var=2&run=00&lid=ENS&bw=1 

The 12s need to stop the rot later please.
 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 



If the models allow us back the deep cold yes otherwise if not and carry on the rot it show how extremely unreliable the models lately.
Brian Gaze
07 January 2024 09:17:48
The wobble started on Thursday IIRC. A few milder runs (a small cluster rather than outliers) started appearing in the GEFS for southern locations. 
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Joe Bloggs
07 January 2024 09:20:22
00z EPS not great.

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/ens_image.php?geoid=48970&var=202&run=0&date=2024-01-07&model=ecm&member=ENS&bw=1 

Trending less cold, still plenty of scatter and uncertainty

Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

Hippydave
07 January 2024 09:20:32
Looked at the various ops this morning, generally nice although ECM was a bit 'meh' albeit it does tease the cold getting south at T240.

Not a great set of ECM ens IMBY with a lot of scatter suggesting any cold getting here from phase 2 is very uncertain and GFS has more scatter than of late albeit still good confidence for 3-4 days of colder uppers.  

Happily I then had a quick look at UKV for Monday and it looks rather nice IMBY, with showers moving through most parts of Kent - looks like the convection will be a little more widespread than just the odd streamer so hopefully most in the county will see something falling. Shower activity also looks robust enough to affect southern parts of the Midlands and Suffolk and to maintain intensity through Surrey and Hampshire all the way down to Devon and maybe even the Western most parts of Cornwall. I doubt it'll be a memorable event and I'm not really expecting anything beyond some falling snow and maybe small accumulations for MBY (I guess some places under any lines of showers may do a bit better) but it's a pretty decent place to be particularly given the uncertainty creeping in WRT the second cold wave and whether it'll get this far or stall further North. 

Cold and dry for the next few days, milder but not to anything more than average or a touch below then very uncertain but could still get 3-4 days of colder weather again. Definitely glass 3/4 full for me this morning - it's not as good as the strong signal for countrywide cold of a few days back but if the models had only just picked up on phase 2 I reckon most people would be pretty happy/excited with the possibilities shown.
Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Ally Pally Snowman
07 January 2024 09:39:27

If the models allow us back the deep cold yes otherwise if not and carry on the rot it show how extremely unreliable the models lately.

Originally Posted by: Jiries 



It does appear once again that the models have led us up the garden path again. For what ever reason models tend to over do blocking in Greenland especially 192h +. 

Still a smidge of hope but need it to turnaround very soon.


 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Crepuscular Ray
07 January 2024 09:47:03

Is that on TWO? 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 



Yes Brian 🙂
Jerry
Edinburgh, in the frost hollow below Blackford Hill
doctormog
07 January 2024 09:48:31

It does appear once again that the models have led us up the garden path again. For what ever reason models tend to over do blocking in Greenland especially 192h +. 

Still a smidge of hope but need it to turnaround very soon.


 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 



All the right building blocks are there up to around day 6 but it’s what happens after that is the issue. First sign is (yes still) to see if the timescale is the same, with t850s of -5°C crossing the north coast by the 14th. After that in terms of specifics there needs to be a cleaner plunge from the north. Will the 06z GFS op run offer either or both?
Brian Gaze
07 January 2024 09:52:47

Yes Brian 🙂

Originally Posted by: Crepuscular Ray 



I'll try and take a look later today. 
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
07 January 2024 09:53:15
Model guff failure again. Tech wise we're no better off than that scene in Napoleon Dynamite where his brother and uncle Rico buy a mail order time machine.

Still waiting for a frost...
Berkshire
StoneCroze
07 January 2024 09:59:40
French Met. are giving snow in my location tomorrow, especially overnight. I just looked at the UKMO synoptic charts and they are showing a trough coming down the Channel. 
I would have thought the sea temp. too warm at 10.3C, but we'll see; there is sleet currently over the Cherbourg peninsular.
Alderney, Channel Islands. (previously known as Beaufort)
Brian Gaze
07 January 2024 10:01:19
ECM stamps for 17/01. Look quite mixed, but as in recent days (expected since the cold is coming from the north rather than east) the chance of deep cold is higher in the north. You should be able to right click to open in a new tab and view full size.



UserPostedImage
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
ballamar
07 January 2024 10:03:28
Still lots of time for things to turn positive for cold, enjoying the potential at 120 on GFS for things to go positively. 
07 January 2024 10:04:58

French Met. are giving snow in my location tomorrow, especially overnight. I just looked at the UKMO synoptic charts and they are showing a trough coming down the Channel. 
I would have thought the sea temp. too warm at 10.3C, but we'll see; there is sleet currently over the Cherbourg peninsular.

Originally Posted by: StoneCroze 



Wintry rain!
That's all we'll get down south.
Berkshire
Hippydave
07 January 2024 10:05:55

It does appear once again that the models have led us up the garden path again. For what ever reason models tend to over do blocking in Greenland especially 192h +. 

Still a smidge of hope but need it to turnaround very soon.


 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 



Definitely agree with the bolded bit. For whatever reason the upper heights development over Greenland does seem to be over modelled and to my untrained eye verifies more rarely than say a Scandi HP. (Albeit with Scandi HPs the modelling of position, cold air feed etc. are often overly clean and we end up with a gentle easterly waft and cool temps, or dragging in milder air from the Med etc.). I guess one thing to be optimistic about is there must be something in the current setup that makes a Greenie HP more likely than it normally is so if nothing changes massively with the broader picture if the current attempt fails we may see it being picked up again later on. We also don't need the HP to be over Greenland to get cold air over the UK either, so still not a bust I guess, just frustrating if all the nice Greenie HP charts end up looking totally different come the day.

It's been interesting scanning through the NW chat re the output and reading the teleconnections chat. I'm very ignorant on that front but seems to me maybe the issue with the strong cold confidence some folks have based on teleconnections is that they're broadscale drives of the weather and can be overridden by more local factors that won't be forecastable more than 7 - 10 days in advance (at best). The signals may all point to a greater chance of northern blocking, which the models may then latch on to as the data for the relevant time becomes available but to get the HP build where it brings cold to us then relies on all sorts of relatively microscale interactions with the jet etc. and a ridge in one place popping up in the modelling can be enough to disrupt the whole thing. 


 
Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Chunky Pea
07 January 2024 10:07:05

As said above, still to be resolved but I think the issue is that the split becomes a displacement. As the Canadian portion just gets amoliated and the issue is if the displacement of the Eurasian lobe doesn't get displaced far enough then off scoots the high either to Canada or to the arctic. 

Originally Posted by: warrenb 



I've heard it said that the southern arm of the Pacific jet stream had been firing up recently due to intense Siberian cold (which originated here in northern Europe in early December) unleashing itself into the Pacific. No doubt the knock off effects of that are still trying to resolved by the models at the moment. From the little I understand though, a fired up southern jet stream eventually leads to a more active Atlantic down the line.
Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Jiries
07 January 2024 10:10:41

I'll try and take a look later today. 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 



I recall your last post that you not happy if there few mild stranglers on the ensembles kept appearing than all go down together on the cold side so perhaps one of the nasty strangler are the cause to win to the mild route.  Right now is a prime winter time to get deep cold and snow so any more rot continue mean we losting the prime winter peak.  
doctormog
07 January 2024 10:16:24

Still lots of time for things to turn positive for cold, enjoying the potential at 120 on GFS for things to go positively. 

Originally Posted by: ballamar 



This is at 168 hours: 

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_168_1.png 

UserPostedImage


And at 174 hr

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_174_2.png 
UserPostedImage
Joe Bloggs
07 January 2024 10:17:52

This is at 168 hours: 

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_168_1.png 

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: doctormog 



An excellent setup to have at the relatively reliable day 7. 

Manchester City Centre, 31m ASL

ballamar
07 January 2024 10:22:56
GFS at 180 looks a dream for mid Jan
doctormog
07 January 2024 10:23:07

An excellent setup to have at the relatively reliable day 7. 

Originally Posted by: Joe Bloggs 



Yes, it’s what happens after that which is causing all the headaches. The potential is very much there and the timescale is getting closer. A wobble back to colder conditions (further south) would be encouraging, a wobble away would be a bit of a worry. 

This definitely fits into the encouraging category: https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_204_2.png  
nsrobins
07 January 2024 10:23:49
Whatever the influence of the Pacific jet etc, if it can get that Az low to spill eastwards instead of meandering mid Atlantic we’d be in business.
AFAIK the 06Z GFS, it’s a better push from the Arctic from 162hrs.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Retron
07 January 2024 10:24:31

Yes, it’s what happens after that which is causing all the headaches. The potential is very much there and the timescale is getting closer. A wobble back to colder conditions (further south) would be encouraging, a wobble away would be a bit of a worry. 

This definitely fits into the encouraging categoryhttps://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_204_2.png  

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


It does indeed, and it's nice to see an op which finally traces one of the colder options which have been (and are still) in the ensembles.

 
Leysdown, north Kent

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