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Andy Woodcock
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 8:42:50 AM
Monster Bartlett on the MetO +144, the damn beast stretches over 3000 miles!

It's as bad a chart as anything I have seen since the birth of TWO

Anyone feeling optimistic this morning needs to take a reality check because that bugger could take a fortnight to shift.

Andy
Andy Woodcock
Penrith
Cumbria

Altitude 535 feet

"Why are the British so worried about climate change? Any change to their climate can only be an improvement" John Daley 2001
Andy Woodcock
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 8:45:27 AM


Stay on topic please. And none of these ultra long posts .

Originally Posted by: Matty H 


Sometimes quality and quantity can go together, Gavin. I would rather read several of Steve Murr's analyses than some of the posts in here today that are full of opinion and lacking in analysis.
Just to continue my theme of posting the ECM ensembles for London, here is the 12z
http://www.weathercast.co.uk/services/ensemble-forecast.html 
Trending colder yet again and with the overwhelming majority of the runs going for progressively colder weather to take hold from Day 12 - eventually highs clustering around 3C and lows around -2/-3C
Yet again the GFS 12z is virtually an outlier from Day 6, introducing milder changeable conditions

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 



The irony there is that Steve's posts are also full of opinion. GFS is always rubbish, even when it's right, and anyone who even bothers to look at it is a stupid idiot, is usually the general theme πŸ˜‚ πŸ˜‰

But you're right, it was purely a format issue and this thread is certainly for such posts and always welcomed. I would have tidied up the paragraphs if I wasn't on my iPad, but as soon as I do that it wrecks the HTML coding for some reason.

I think Steve may have been struggling to copy and paste it because of the italics he used, but I'm not sure. Good read none-the-less. πŸ‘

Originally Posted by: Hungry Tiger 



I take a lot more note of gfs these days, time and again it is right about the strength of the Atlantic while ECM gets carried away by ghost easterlies and northerlies.

If Gfs isn't on board, the chances are the train will hit the buffers.

Andy


Andy Woodcock
Penrith
Cumbria

Altitude 535 feet

"Why are the British so worried about climate change? Any change to their climate can only be an improvement" John Daley 2001
GIBBY
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 8:46:26 AM

Good morning everyone. Here is how I see the outputs of GFS, UKMO, GEM, NAVGEM and ECM taken from their midnight outputs today Tuesday December 3rd 2013.


All models show High pressure moving gently South over Southern Britain today as a weak cold front sinks South over Britain with some rain in places as it comes. Behind it some clearer skies develop for a while with a patchy frost tonight before another front sweeps SE across the UK on Thursday bringing a strong to severe gale NW wind to the NE for a time. Some wintry showers of sleet and snow will affect these areas too for a time before the drier weather over Southern and Western areas at the end of the week spreas to these regions too. Over the weekend cold and frosty weather is shown to be slowly replaced by cloudy and milder conditions as High pressure is shown to slip SE across Southern Britain and on into NW Europe backing winds to a milder SW direction.

GFS then shows next week as being much milder for a time with Southerly winds wafting North over the UK around High pressure over SE Europe. In any brighter intervals it could become very mild in places. Later on though the High moves North to Scandinavia and a puddle of very chilly air is sent NW from Europe towards the UK. At the same time Low pressure off the Atlantic engages this cold air to deliver a spell of unsettled and wet weather for many and it may be cold enough for some of this rain to fall as snow for a time before the end of the run sees much more unsettled weather with rain or showers at times around deep Low pressure over the Atlantic.


UKMO shows High pressure covering much of SW Europe early next week with mild Atlantic air drifting over the UK from the West or SW. The mildest weather will be towards the North and West where the cloud will be thickest and the winds more strong while Southern and Eastern areas remain more at risk of cloud breaks at times perhaps with some mist and fog patches and somewhat lower surface temperatures as a result in very light winds.


GEM today shows a pattern we'd crave for in July as it would mean very hot weather as Southerly winds move up across the UK all the way from North Africa as High pressure settles down over SE Europe. As it is in any brighter breaks in the SE it could become exceptionally mild for early December with all areas sharing in very mild conditions at least with little in the way of rain away from the far West.


NAVGEM shows High pressure collapsing all the way down to the Med early next week with pressure falling to the NW setting up a mild and strong SW flow over Britain with troughs crossing NE with rain at times for all in temperatures close to or somewhat above average.


ECM takes High pressure only briefly away to the SE early next week before bringing it back NW in increasingly warm uppers to settle over the UK with a ridge to Scandinavia by Day 10. It looks like cloud will again be a big factor in determining conditions at the surface and it may well be that cloudy skies may keep cool conditions at the surface. However, if clouds break some very mild conditions could develop locally for a time though with patchy frost at night before more generally colder conditions begin to spread from the SE across Southern Britain at the end of the run as the UK High ridges towards Scandinavia.


The GFS Ensembles show our brief cold snap as a blink and miss it affair before we revert back to probable anticyclonic gloom as cloudy skies around High pressure to the SE looks likely for much of next week with very little rainfall for the South and East until later as things become more mobile as Low pressure edges in towards Western Britain at times with rain for all on occasion.


The Jet Stream today shows the flow to the North tilting SE down the North Sea in a day or two before resetting NE towards NW Scotland and on over Scandinavia next week keeping the UK very much on the mild side of the flow for the time being.


In Summary today if we were in Summer we would be staring down the barrel of some very high temperatures as High pressure looks like slipping down to SE Europe and sending long fetch Southerly winds from North Africa, Spain and France across the UK. Being as it's winter things are much less clear cut as cloud cover will likely set up an inversion with cloudy skies and temperatures nearer to average but largely dry, frost and fog free. However, if clouds break occur it is not out of the question for some very mild conditions to develop for a time next week with 15C or more not entirely out of the equation if the sun breaks through. Later on though there is still suggestion that High pressure rises over Scandinavia and this would gradually pull colder air from Eastern Europe towards the UK in 10-14 days time but this is an ocean of time away at the moment and must remain speculative so the UK Winter remains on hold for the time being.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
some faraway beach
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:04:50 AM

Monster Bartlett on the MetO +144, the damn beast stretches over 3000 miles! It's as bad a chart as anything I have seen since the birth of TWO Anyone feeling optimistic this morning needs to take a reality check because that bugger could take a fortnight to shift. Andy

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 


I thought a Bartlett was a semi-permanent Continental high-pressure block which sends continual, mild Atlantic lows over the top of it and targeting the UK.


No mild Atlantic lows over the UK that I can see on this 144 hr MetO chart:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ukmo2.php?carte=1021&ech=144&nh=1&archive=0


Rather it looks like the UK sat on the edge of a big high that could go anywhere and produce all sorts of weather, both at 144 hrs depending on cloud cover and in the future as it changes shape and/or position.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
polarwind
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:33:38 AM


Monster Bartlett on the MetO +144, the damn beast stretches over 3000 miles! It's as bad a chart as anything I have seen since the birth of TWO Anyone feeling optimistic this morning needs to take a reality check because that bugger could take a fortnight to shift. Andy

Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 


I thought a Bartlett was a semi-permanent Continental high-pressure block which sends continual, mild Atlantic lows over the top of it and targeting the UK.


No mild Atlantic lows over the UK that I can see on this 144 hr MetO chart:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ukmo2.php?carte=1021&ech=144&nh=1&archive=0


Rather it looks like the UK sat on the edge of a big high that could go anywhere and produce all sorts of weather, both at 144 hrs depending on cloud cover and in the future as it changes shape and/or position.


Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 

Yes, following the jet stream and taking warm air into N. Europe.


It was this distortion/appendage of the Azores high that has been, regionally, the outstanding feature of most of the last 30 years of global warming. But over the last several years the Azores high has regained, a great deal of its former shape, position and behavior.


 


 


"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
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Dave,Derby
Whiteout
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:04:31 AM

Interesting post from Ian F on netweather:


The current UKMO view is for a colder set-up to dominate again into the 10-15d trend period, with more progressive solutions in a minority. Possible net result is UK on western bounds of blocking with 'battleground' style issues in west thanks to periodic Atlantic incursions. Latest EC32 from yesterday is an interesting one; it also indicates a signal by Christmas for negative temp anomalies & HP to N; LP to S/SW, but the clusters do show a wide raft of potential outcomes. Anyway, very early days but tentative signs for something more blocked a bit further down the December diary.



Home/Work - Dartmoor
240m/785 ft asl
Gooner
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:10:18 AM


Interesting post from Ian F on netweather:


The current UKMO view is for a colder set-up to dominate again into the 10-15d trend period, with more progressive solutions in a minority. Possible net result is UK on western bounds of blocking with 'battleground' style issues in west thanks to periodic Atlantic incursions. Latest EC32 from yesterday is an interesting one; it also indicates a signal by Christmas for negative temp anomalies & HP to N; LP to S/SW, but the clusters do show a wide raft of potential outcomes. Anyway, very early days but tentative signs for something more blocked a bit further down the December diary.



Originally Posted by: Whiteout 


Forward that to Andy and Moomin


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


NDJF
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:23:09 AM



Interesting post from Ian F on netweather:


The current UKMO view is for a colder set-up to dominate again into the 10-15d trend period, with more progressive solutions in a minority. Possible net result is UK on western bounds of blocking with 'battleground' style issues in west thanks to periodic Atlantic incursions. Latest EC32 from yesterday is an interesting one; it also indicates a signal by Christmas for negative temp anomalies & HP to N; LP to S/SW, but the clusters do show a wide raft of potential outcomes. Anyway, very early days but tentative signs for something more blocked a bit further down the December diary.



Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Forward that to Andy and Moomin


Originally Posted by: Whiteout 


 


Some very interesting quotes / one liner this morning  from Matt Hugo re N/NE set up. I know this question has been raised before but possible we are on the verge of something special thats not been spotted by the met or reported just yet?

kmoorman
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:23:40 AM


Interesting post from Ian F on netweather:


The current UKMO view is for a colder set-up to dominate again into the 10-15d trend period, with more progressive solutions in a minority. Possible net result is UK on western bounds of blocking with 'battleground' style issues in west thanks to periodic Atlantic incursions. Latest EC32 from yesterday is an interesting one; it also indicates a signal by Christmas for negative temp anomalies & HP to N; LP to S/SW, but the clusters do show a wide raft of potential outcomes. Anyway, very early days but tentative signs for something more blocked a bit further down the December diary.



Originally Posted by: Whiteout 


 


I find this output fascinating, as it shows that there's so much more info out there than the GFS & its ensemble, ECM and UKMO op runs. There is definitely a signal out there in the digital milieu, and we occasionally see that in the output, but it's been well hidden so far in the publicly available output.


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
Follow me on Twitter @kmoorman1968
Arcus
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:31:23 AM

Smidgen of an outlier on the 00z ECM de bilts ens: 


http://www.knmi.nl/library/php/resample_image.php?filename=/exp/pluim/Data/pluim_06260_0_00_60.png&width=692


Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
nsrobins
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:44:10 AM


Some very interesting quotes / one liner this morning  from Matt Hugo re N/NE set up. I know this question has been raised before but possible we are on the verge of something special thats not been spotted by the met or reported just yet?


Originally Posted by: NDJF 



It's been spotted you can be sure of that

It would be the ultimate irony that, as we enter a month that the majority of LRFs called fairly average and at times unsettled, we get the mother of all pre-Christmas easterlies that buries the country in 10ft snowdrifts.
It would be disruptive and dangerous yes, but man would I chuckle.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Russwirral
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:50:21 AM

Lots of hints at a pressure rise on the latest GFS... though no real fantastic solution.  It could be this is the journey the GFS is making towards a codler blocked theme... OR it could be modelled correctly.  where the block appears in just the wrong place, giving us a mild southerly flow.  Just shows that if the HP isnt in the perfect place - all hopes are dashed


 


 


moomin75
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:52:46 AM



Interesting post from Ian F on netweather:


The current UKMO view is for a colder set-up to dominate again into the 10-15d trend period, with more progressive solutions in a minority. Possible net result is UK on western bounds of blocking with 'battleground' style issues in west thanks to periodic Atlantic incursions. Latest EC32 from yesterday is an interesting one; it also indicates a signal by Christmas for negative temp anomalies & HP to N; LP to S/SW, but the clusters do show a wide raft of potential outcomes. Anyway, very early days but tentative signs for something more blocked a bit further down the December diary.



Originally Posted by: Gooner 


Forward that to Andy and Moomin


Originally Posted by: Whiteout 

I've seen it Marcus - and I'll believe it when it happens....EC32 has not been the holy grail of MRF in the last couple of years as changes as often as, well, the weather!


Anyway, GFS 6z continues the trend towards wafting southerlies in the next 10 days or so. OK - never massively mild, but certainly not cold!


Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
kmoorman
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:56:10 AM


Lots of hints at a pressure rise on the latest GFS... though no real fantastic solution.  It could be this is the journey the GFS is making towards a codler blocked theme... OR it could be modelled correctly.  where the block appears in just the wrong place, giving us a mild southerly flow.  Just shows that if the HP isnt in the perfect place - all hopes are dashed


 


Originally Posted by: Russwirral 


I think the key to an Easterly medium term is whether the high Pressure that will pass over the UK in the next few days is able to ridge over the low pressure over Eastern europe and connect with the High Pressure over Siberia.   Without that the jet stream is allowed to continue to blast away to our north without disruption.  With a ridge over the local low, there's more opportunity for the jet to buckle to the south out in the Atlantic, and this will help to inflate the ridge and push it NE over Scandinavia.   It's a delicate ballet.


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)
Work: Canary Wharf, London
Follow me on Twitter @kmoorman1968
nsrobins
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:03:35 AM


 It's a delicate ballet.


Originally Posted by: kmoorman 


Indeed, but will we be Singing in the Rain or Dancing on Ice?

Happy with GFS in that it continues to signal major height rises to the E or NE. Whether the balloon infaltes in the right place or not depends as Kieron states on a delicate balance of other influences.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Rob K
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:04:04 AM


Smidgen of an outlier on the 00z ECM de bilts ens: 


http://www.knmi.nl/library/php/resample_image.php?filename=/exp/pluim/Data/pluim_06260_0_00_60.png&width=692


Originally Posted by: Arcus 


The ECM ensembles have been keeping me interested for a day or two. Clear signs of potential there, and if the Op run had been one of the main cluster then this thread might be a bit busier this morning!


 


In the meantime the main theme of the weather is DRY. Hardly any rain on the horizon for another week or so.


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." β€” Jerome K. Jerome
Russwirral
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:43:42 AM

 


In the meantime the main theme of the weather is DRY. Hardly any rain on the horizon for another week or so.


Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


Which falls in nicely with a few weather sites seasonal forecast/outlook for early december.  


Gooner
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:49:18 AM




Interesting post from Ian F on netweather:


The current UKMO view is for a colder set-up to dominate again into the 10-15d trend period, with more progressive solutions in a minority. Possible net result is UK on western bounds of blocking with 'battleground' style issues in west thanks to periodic Atlantic incursions. Latest EC32 from yesterday is an interesting one; it also indicates a signal by Christmas for negative temp anomalies & HP to N; LP to S/SW, but the clusters do show a wide raft of potential outcomes. Anyway, very early days but tentative signs for something more blocked a bit further down the December diary.



Originally Posted by: moomin75 


Forward that to Andy and Moomin


Originally Posted by: Gooner 

I've seen it Marcus - and I'll believe it when it happens....EC32 has not been the holy grail of MRF in the last couple of years as changes as often as, well, the weather!


Anyway, GFS 6z continues the trend towards wafting southerlies in the next 10 days or so. OK - never massively mild, but certainly not cold!


Originally Posted by: Whiteout 


Just checking


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


nsrobins
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 12:14:42 PM

Well Pert 19 in the 06Z GFS cluster has obviously got a handle on (strikeout) what we want  (end strikeout) likely synoptics next week.

If you want some entertainment, have a look but be warned, put your coffee down before you click LOL.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
White Meadows
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 12:18:00 PM
http://www.jp2webdesign.co.uk/two/ensembles/#London 

GFS was dead against this 24 hrs ago…. could something be afoot?

It would be [almost] perfect timing for Christmas.
Polar Low
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 12:25:51 PM

Signs that gfs wants to start putting energy under the block nice ridge n/e and slightly to grenny from both.


 


http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~fxg1/ECMWF_0z/hgtcomp.html


 

Karl Guille
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 12:29:22 PM


Well Pert 19 in the 06Z GFS cluster has obviously got a handle on (strikeout) what we want  (end strikeout) likely synoptics next week.

If you want some entertainment, have a look but be warned, put your coffee down before you click LOL.


Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


This should be seen in all of its glory!


 http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/run/gens-19-0-264.png?6


St. Sampson
Guernsey
Whiteout
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 12:36:08 PM
http://www.jp2webdesign.co.uk/two/ensembles/#London  GFS was dead against this 24 hrs ago…. could something be afoot? It would be [almost] perfect timing for Christmas.


Yep, some tentative signs showing in the models and with the comments from Matt and Ian F we could have an exciting build up to Christmas.


Home/Work - Dartmoor
240m/785 ft asl
nsrobins
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 12:44:29 PM


http://www.jp2webdesign.co.uk/two/ensembles/#London  GFS was dead against this 24 hrs ago…. could something be afoot? It would be [almost] perfect timing for Christmas.

Originally Posted by: Whiteout 


Yep, some tentative signs showing in the models and with the comments from Matt and Ian F we could have an exciting build up to Christmas.




I'll try to get excited whatever the weather Rich, but I know what you mean.
It can't be emphasized enough though that these are only tentative signs at the moment, and expectations must be kept in check. Posting the odd Stella ENS member doesn't help


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Retron
Tuesday, December 3, 2013 12:45:07 PM
http://www.jp2webdesign.co.uk/two/ensembles/#London  GFS was dead against this 24 hrs ago…. could something be afoot? It would be [almost] perfect timing for Christmas.


It's been afoot for days - since last Wednesday at least. That's on the EPS, the GEFS has been flopping around as it so often does. (To be fair, EPS flipflops too but it doesn't seem to do it to the same extent as GEFS does).


The last two runs of the ECM32 have shown heights rising to the NE and pretty much every single EPS 15-day run since last Wednesday has shown good support for that too.


 


Leysdown, north Kent
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