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Matty H
  • Matty H
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
16 August 2014 21:45:47

It's not the mentioning of it, it's the blanket coverage and dissecting as if snow is forecast to blanket the nation. An isolated, barely populated part of the UK may see a flake or two. For everyone else temps will be several degrees below average and nothing extraordinary for August, or any month for that matter.

Originally Posted by: doctormog 



All true , although I will of course be climbing a 4000ft mountain to find that snowflake. 😊 [sn_clown]

On a more positive note the 12z GFS continues with the hints that things may turn a bit warmer and more settled in 10 days or so.

Originally Posted by: Matty H 



That's the thing. If snow were forecast to low levels it would be actually worthy of mention and genuinely interesting rather than a not that unusual event portrayed as a once in a lifetime happening.

Speaking of which - back to lamppost watching 👅
Hungry Tiger
16 August 2014 22:26:41


Looking with interest at next saturday


http://www2.wetter3.de/Animation_12_UTC/186_30.gif


Ridge moves into the cold airmass. Best chance of seeing some impressive nightime minima. I suspect subzero temps won't be that hard to comeby in rural Scotland. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


I wonder what we will see down south with the likes of that.


 


Gavin S. FRmetS.
TWO Moderator.
Contact the TWO team - [email protected]
South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.


SydneyonTees
17 August 2014 00:21:01



The JMA extends the 0C upper air even further south into the far North of England.


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/jma/runs/2014081512/J96-7.GIF?15-12


ECM offers some hope of a milder end to the month below with slightly milder uppers but that's 10 days off until then it is going to be unseasonably cool.


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2014081512/ECM0-240.GIF?15-0


Originally Posted by: Jiries 


I wonder if this very unusual cool weather coming to us was the one that gave Toronto a first time to see 18.4C as a max temps in mid-August since I been recording it.   Death Valley have a cooler August too with 3 times rain being recorded.  Temps should recover thankfully next late week and into the BH weekend.


Originally Posted by: Medlock Vale Weather 


 


Funny how these things happen together all over the world. Currently having a cool wet August in Sydney. This is very unusual as it is supposed to be the driest time of the year. But unseasonaly wet and cool here.

GIBBY
17 August 2014 07:23:50

HERE IS MY LATEST ANALYSIS FROM THE OUTPUTS OF THE WEATHER COMPUTER PREDICTION MODELS FOR TWO WEEKS FROM 8AM TODAY SUNDAY AUGUST 17TH 2014.


THE CURRENT GENERAL SITUATION. A deep Low pressure near to Northern Scotland will move slowly East out into the Northern north Sea through the day. A strong and cool NW flow will push a weakening trough South over Southern Britain this morning.


MODELS-2 WEEK HEADLINE  Mostly rather cool with sunshine and showers and with some longer spells of rain at times later more especially over the North and West.


THE JET STREAM FORECAST The Jet Stream Forecast shows the flow moving SE across the UK currently before it shifts slowly South and blows West to East increasingly stronger in a week or so at the same time as shifting slowly North on a similar axis to be cross the UK at the end of the period.


GFS The GFS operational this morning shows a lengthy period of cool weather with a light to moderate NW flow giving sunshine and showers by day and very col nights. The winds turn more cyclonic through Week 2 with more organised bands of rain and showers pushing East across the UK through Week 2. The GFS Ensembles endorse the above pattern pretty much in full though at the end of the run a more meaningful push of Atlantic High pressure ridge towards Southern Britain looks possible.


UKMO UKMO this morning shows a pool of cool unstable air over the UK under a slack Northerly flow early next weekend. So following a cool and breezy week of sunshine and scattered showers there looks to be a risk of more widespread and heavy showers next weekend under the unstable airmass shown.


THE FAX CHARTS The Fax Charts show a period of NW winds across the UK between Low pressure over Scandinavia and High pressure over the Atlantic with cool and occasionally showery NW winds blowing down across the UK.


GEM The GEM operational today shows a very similar pattern to that offered by GFS with sunny spells and scattered showers in a cool North or NW wind this week before a ridge of High pressure crosses East next weekend opening the door from the West to more blustery and unsettled and cyclonic Westerly flow with rain at times to end the run. 


NAVGEM NAVGEM too follows the trend of others with a cool week to come with some showers and brings a ridge of High pressure in close to Western Britain to end the run damping down the showers next weekend ahead of more cyclconic Atlantic winds look likely to push East over the UK through the following week. 


ECM The ECM operational shows the cool North or NW flow too through this week with some bright sunny spells in between. By next weekend winds will fall very light as a weak ridge crosses East ahead of cyclonic Atlantic winds withrain at times for all arrives in Week 2.


NOTABLE TREND CHANGES FROM PREVIOUS RUNS The general trend today maintains the cool NW flow of this week giving way to more mobile Westerly pattern through Week 2 with rain at times on blustery West or SW winds.


MY THOUGHTS  The pattern of the models this week illustrate a cool and showery NW flow with some very cool nights likely especially away from the windier NE before the weekend sees pressure rise as a ridge crosses East with dry and bright weather likely next weekend followed by a decline in conditions as Atlantic Westerly winds take over with rain at times through Week 2 with the emphasis on the heaviest rain being towards the NW in steadily recovering temperatures towards average.


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Saint Snow
17 August 2014 08:37:40



On a more positive note the 12z GFS continues with the hints that things may turn a bit warmer and more settled in 10 days or so.

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


 


Yep, another major turnround between the 6z and 12z.


There seems to be consensus that toward next Friday, the low centred to the east of the UK will fill and drift slightly eastwards. This will allow a ridge to be thrown northwards over the UK by the AH.


The uncertainty surrounds how quickly the next Atlantic low barges its horrible arse over the UK. Some runs are showing the ridge holding on until Mon/Tue, others it being shunted away as early as Saturday.


Given it's a Bank Holiday weekend, the timing is more crucial than normal.


 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


 


This morning's runs from both GFS and ECM are back to showing the worst case scenario, with the low charging through and flattening the ridge as soon as Saturday night


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Andy Woodcock
17 August 2014 08:37:54
For the BH weekend the models have taken a significant lurch downwards this morning so unless you live in a loft conversion with under floor heating in Central London you will not notice the effects of the ridge on Saturday. By Sunday GFS and ECM have a new low moving into the UK and while not as cold as today's it will be wet and windy.

Summer proper ends in two weeks but summer with any meaning is already over.

Andy
Andy Woodcock
Penrith
Cumbria

Altitude 535 feet

"Why are the British so worried about climate change? Any change to their climate can only be an improvement" John Daley 2001
Osprey
17 August 2014 09:02:29

For the BH weekend the models have taken a significant lurch downwards this morning so unless you live in a loft conversion with under floor heating in Central London you will not notice the effects of the ridge on Saturday. By Sunday GFS and ECM have a new low moving into the UK and while not as cold as today's it will be wet and windy.

Summer proper ends in two weeks but summer with any meaning is already over.

Andy

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 


I'm glad you said that!


Nobody likes a smartass, especially another smartass...
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
briggsy6
17 August 2014 11:01:23
Am I the only person who's enjoying this change to cooler weather?
Location: Uxbridge
Gavin P
17 August 2014 11:47:42

Yeah, questions this morning about the last week of August - Had hoped for improvements, but not sure now...


Rural West Northants 120m asl
Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids
Hungry Tiger
17 August 2014 11:50:45


Yeah, questions this morning about the end last week of August - Had hoped for improvements, but not sure now...


Originally Posted by: Gavin P 


I've noticed a cool August often leads to a cool September - but I am sure there are some exceptions to that one.


 


Gavin S. FRmetS.
TWO Moderator.
Contact the TWO team - [email protected]
South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.


cultman1
17 August 2014 14:46:27
Looking at the models and projections beyond the bank holiday weekend I wouldnt be a bit surprised if this current cool and unstable weather may not last well into September...
sizzle
17 August 2014 15:12:16

the MODELS have been flip flipping about since last month, a call of a hot august was on the cards from what i can remember, but turns out not,, anyway i see MR BRIAN has made a call of starting his WHITE CHRISTMAS 2014 COUNT DOWN ALREADY on BUZZ 

Matty H
  • Matty H
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
17 August 2014 15:13:47

the MODELS have been flip flipping about since last month, a call of a hot august was on the cards from what i can remember, but turns out not,, anyway i see MR BRIAN has made a call of starting his WHITE CHRISTMAS 2014 COUNT DOWN ALREADYonBUZZ

Originally Posted by: sizzle 



What's with the random capitalised words? 😕

As for anyone calling any month - more fool anyone who puts an ounce of faith in a monthly forecast.
Quantum
17 August 2014 15:17:52

Displacement of arctic airmass shown very niceley on NH theta:


http://www2.wetter3.de/Animation_06_UTC_Global/36_5_nh.gif


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
sizzle
17 August 2014 16:08:27

the MODELS have been flip flipping about since last month, a call of a hot august was on the cards from what i can remember, but turns out not,, anyway i see MR BRIAN has made a call of starting his WHITE CHRISTMAS 2014 COUNT DOWN ALREADYonBUZZ

Originally Posted by: Matty H 

What's with the random capitalised words? 😕 As for anyone calling any month - more fool anyone who puts an ounce of faith in a monthly forecast.

Originally Posted by: sizzle 

sorry about the caps no reason for it. and yes agreed cant put any faith in a monthly forecast, for any month...

Matty H
  • Matty H
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
17 August 2014 18:25:32
There's always something to throw an outlook into chaos beyond a few days or a week. Butterfly effect.

It would be interesting to see the accuracy over a decent sample period, say, 24 months of a professional source like the MetO v am amateur source such as Gavin and then someone like Moomin's hugely in depth, but ultimately completely made up guesses. I wonder how close things would be. I suspect fairly close between the likes of the MetO and Gavin, but with both being proved inaccurate over individual months just as often as accurate. Bottom line is for all the technology we are still nowhere near being able to forecast accurately at that range with any consistency and that is a fact. Whole Seasonal forecast are just beyond a joke.

No disrespect to Gavin BTW, just he's a local to TWO example
Sevendust
17 August 2014 19:52:35

There's always something to throw an outlook into chaos beyond a few days or a week. Butterfly effect. It would be interesting to see the accuracy over a decent sample period, say, 24 months of a professional source like the MetO v am amateur source such as Gavin and then someone like Moomin's hugely in depth, but ultimately completely made up guesses. I wonder how close things would be. I suspect fairly close between the likes of the MetO and Gavin, but with both being proved inaccurate over individual months just as often as accurate. Bottom line is for all the technology we are still nowhere near being able to forecast accurately at that range with any consistency and that is a fact. Whole Seasonal forecast are just beyond a joke. No disrespect to Gavin BTW, just he's a local to TWO example

Originally Posted by: Matty H 


Anything beyond a few days has to be a punt although the prevailing set-up may give you more ot less leeway epending on the stability at the time.


I've never been convinced otherwise, especially after 10 years of weather watching and my increasingly deep reviewing of data since starting my own page.


Ex-Bertha is a good example of what can happen to upset synoptics at short range


Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
17 August 2014 20:28:42

I know naff all about model watching but I know anything beyond five days isn't worth hanging hopes on and forecasts are just forecasts not scripts to be followed.  It always makes me smile when people quote newspaper weather forecasts as if they're set in stone, yet they're only every right by a very lucky guess, but people still swallaw it as gospel!  But they don't know any better.


I find it equally amusing when TWO members get hung up about LRF's and we shoujld know better, especially as we know full well the models can differ greatly from each other and that they often change by each run.  I suppose that's the nature of weather watching and we're all on here to discuss weather, whether it pleases us or not.


Anyway, I came on here to see if I could make out what the most recent model output was and ended up off topic like everyone else!  So is the outlook still bleak?  Is summer over? 


Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
Join the fun and banter of the monthly CET competition.
Matty H
  • Matty H
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
17 August 2014 20:33:03

I know naff all about model watching but I knowanything beyond five days isn't worth hanging hopes on and forecasts are just forecasts not scripts to be followed.It always makes me smile when people quote newspaper weather forecasts as if they're set in stone, yet they're only every right by a verylucky guess,but people still swallaw it as gospel! But they don't know any better.
I find it equally amusingwhen TWO members get hung up about LRF's and we shoujld know better,especially aswe know full wellthemodels can differ greatly from each otherand thatthey often change by each run.I suppose that's the nature of weather watching and we're all on here todiscussweather, whether it pleases us or not.
Anyway,I came on here to see if I could make out what the most recent modeloutput was and ended up off topic like everyone else! So is theoutlook still bleak? Is summer over? UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Caz 




Have you not been reading? Snow is coming. We are about to experience the coldest temperatures since December 2010, and 21c is no longer pleasant, it is searing heat which usually results in half of the world's population dying of exposure to radiation.

Another way of looking at it is things still look unsettled. As often seems to be the case, the further south and East you are the better.

Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
17 August 2014 20:36:14

I know naff all about model watching but I knowanything beyond five days isn't worth hanging hopes on and forecasts are just forecasts not scripts to be followed.It always makes me smile when people quote newspaper weather forecasts as if they're set in stone, yet they're only every right by a verylucky guess,but people still swallaw it as gospel! But they don't know any better. I find it equally amusingwhen TWO members get hung up about LRF's and we shoujld know better,especially aswe know full wellthemodels can differ greatly from each otherand thatthey often change by each run.I suppose that's the nature of weather watching and we're all on here todiscussweather, whether it pleases us or not. Anyway,I came on here to see if I could make out what the most recent modeloutput was and ended up off topic like everyone else! So is theoutlook still bleak? Is summer over? UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Matty H 

Have you not been reading? Snow is coming. We are about to experience the coldest temperatures since December 2010, and 21c is no longer pleasant, it is searing heat which usually results in half of the world's population dying of exposure to radiation. Another way of looking at it is things still look unsettled. As often seems to be the case, the further south and East you are the better.

Originally Posted by: Caz 


Thanks Matty.  I kind of guessed there was little change by the nature of the discussion! 


Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.
Join the fun and banter of the monthly CET competition.
Medlock Vale Weather
17 August 2014 20:39:45


I know naff all about model watching but I know anything beyond five days isn't worth hanging hopes on and forecasts are just forecasts not scripts to be followed.  It always makes me smile when people quote newspaper weather forecasts as if they're set in stone, yet they're only every right by a very lucky guess, but people still swallaw it as gospel!  But they don't know any better.


I find it equally amusing when TWO members get hung up about LRF's and we shoujld know better, especially as we know full well the models can differ greatly from each other and that they often change by each run.  I suppose that's the nature of weather watching and we're all on here to discuss weather, whether it pleases us or not.


Anyway, I came on here to see if I could make out what the most recent model output was and ended up off topic like everyone else!  So is the outlook still bleak?  Is summer over? 


Originally Posted by: Caz 


Haha Meteorologically speaking there isn't much Summer left - about 2 weeks. But most of us know including I'm sure you that September can still bring Summer like weather - take 2011 as an example, it's an extreme example I know haha but it's an example of how we can get very warm weather right into the month. It is more than possible. Of course October is far more difficult to achieve very warm temps like 25C as traditionally that is when the Atlantic begins to fire up, also the ever shortening days and less warm air masses to tap into. In fact on average in my location it's the wettest month of the year.


Alan in Medlock Valley - Oldham's frost hollow. 103 metres above sea level.
What is a frost hollow? http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/Frost-hollow.htm 
Stormchaser
17 August 2014 21:08:23

Funnily enough, ECM uses an ex-tropical system to shift the pattern back towards one that has a ridge through Europe trying to build up to the UK from day 10. This manages to occur despite the storm system racing NE through the UK.


GEM shows what happens if it digs down to our SW instead - a better ridge than ECM has by day 10.


GFS doesn't really model this system yet, instead shoving the Atlantic across to bring unsettled westerlies.


 


Until then... a rather boring northerly flow for 5 days running  - though a few convective features are possible 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

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2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Gavin P
17 August 2014 22:36:39


There's always something to throw an outlook into chaos beyond a few days or a week. Butterfly effect. It would be interesting to see the accuracy over a decent sample period, say, 24 months of a professional source like the MetO v am amateur source such as Gavin and then someone like Moomin's hugely in depth, but ultimately completely made up guesses. I wonder how close things would be. I suspect fairly close between the likes of the MetO and Gavin, but with both being proved inaccurate over individual months just as often as accurate. Bottom line is for all the technology we are still nowhere near being able to forecast accurately at that range with any consistency and that is a fact. Whole Seasonal forecast are just beyond a joke. No disrespect to Gavin BTW, just he's a local to TWO example


Originally Posted by: Matty H 


You don't think I'm the Man The Office Fears then?


 


Rural West Northants 120m asl
Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids
Quantum
17 August 2014 23:00:48



There's always something to throw an outlook into chaos beyond a few days or a week. Butterfly effect. It would be interesting to see the accuracy over a decent sample period, say, 24 months of a professional source like the MetO v am amateur source such as Gavin and then someone like Moomin's hugely in depth, but ultimately completely made up guesses. I wonder how close things would be. I suspect fairly close between the likes of the MetO and Gavin, but with both being proved inaccurate over individual months just as often as accurate. Bottom line is for all the technology we are still nowhere near being able to forecast accurately at that range with any consistency and that is a fact. Whole Seasonal forecast are just beyond a joke. No disrespect to Gavin BTW, just he's a local to TWO example


Originally Posted by: Gavin P 


You don't think I'm the Man The Office Fears then?


 


Originally Posted by: Matty H 


Careful Gav, Brian doesn't like lawlsuits.



2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Matty H
  • Matty H
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
17 August 2014 23:40:32



There's always something to throw an outlook into chaos beyond a few days or a week. Butterfly effect. It would be interesting to see the accuracy over a decent sample period, say, 24 months of a professional source like the MetO v am amateur source such as Gavin and then someone like Moomin's hugely in depth, but ultimately completely made up guesses. I wonder how close things would be. I suspect fairly close between the likes of the MetO and Gavin, but with both being proved inaccurate over individual months just as often as accurate. Bottom line is for all the technology we are still nowhere near being able to forecast accurately at that range with any consistency and that is a fact. Whole Seasonal forecast are just beyond a joke. No disrespect to Gavin BTW, just he's a local to TWO example

Originally Posted by: Quantum 


You don't think I'm the Man The Office Fears then?UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Gavin P 


Careful Gav, Brian doesn't like lawlsuits.
UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Matty H 



Posturing from charlatans 😉

GTW, you have nowt to fear. 👅

Gav, you're the best non-pro forecaster out there 👍

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