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Stormchaser
21 November 2014 10:54:25

Such is the modern age... here's something I just posted as a comment on Dave's Facebook page:


 


I think we're starting to see the stronger low-level (tropospheric) vortex (a persistent coupling of deep low pressure and very cold air in the Arctic, this time around Greenland from the looks of things) that has long been anticipated by followers of the Cohen theory (experimental) linking the high snow cover advance in October across Asia with a major cold outbreak across NW Europe sometime in the winter (bear in mind the UK isn't a guaranteed participant...)

The idea is that events higher up in the atmosphere, driven by the large mid-latitude blocking highs expected over the coming 10 days and beyond, will eventually come down on that polar vortex like a ton of bricks, pretty much blowing it apart.

This should lead to a large scale outpouring of cold air from the Arctic, at which point it call comes down to how the pieces arrange themselves as to whether some (or a lot... or indeed none) of that cold can reach the UK.


 


I'm hoping that can take the edge off the sting that some may have felt when looking at the strong polar vortex being modeled over Greenland by the likes of ECM and GFS in 10-14 days time.


If only the theory could be taken as gospel eh? I am hopeful, encouraged by how events in the stratosphere seems to be unfolding - with a lot of strong attacks at the high levels which may well start coming from sources other than Asia in the not too distant future - a bit like an arena fight where several competitors all gang up on a target in the middle.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

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2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Solar Cycles
21 November 2014 11:02:16


Such is the modern age... here's something I just posted as a comment on Dave's Facebook page:


 


I think we're starting to see the stronger low-level (tropospheric) vortex (a persistent coupling of deep low pressure and very cold air in the Arctic, this time around Greenland from the looks of things) that has long been anticipated by followers of the Cohen theory (experimental) linking the high snow cover advance in October across Asia with a major cold outbreak across NW Europe sometime in the winter (bear in mind the UK isn't a guaranteed participant...)

The idea is that events higher up in the atmosphere, driven by the large mid-latitude blocking highs expected over the coming 10 days and beyond, will eventually come down on that polar vortex like a ton of bricks, pretty much blowing it apart.

This should lead to a large scale outpouring of cold air from the Arctic, at which point it call comes down to how the pieces arrange themselves as to whether some (or a lot... or indeed none) of that cold can reach the UK.


 


I'm hoping that can take the edge off the sting that some may have felt when looking at the strong polar vortex being modeled over Greenland by the likes of ECM and GFS in 10-14 days time.


If only the theory could be taken as gospel eh? I am hopeful, encouraged by how events in the stratosphere seems to be unfolding - with a lot of strong attacks at the high levels which may well start coming from sources other than Asia in the not too distant future - a bit like an arena fight where several competitors all gang up on a target in the middle.


Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 

Good post SC and sums up how things will hopefully pan out over the coming winter.

roger63
21 November 2014 11:04:35


ECM Control goes very cold but vast majority are mild. I think we will be be very lucky to get a cold spell before Christmas now sadly. The Meto 30 dayer is awful for coldies.


http://www.knmi.nl/exp/pluim/vijftiendaagse/index.php


Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


The latest GFS shows the Jet flattening and the Atlantic slowly taking control again out to  to early December .Frankly December is rarely a  snowy month.The Decembers of 2008 and 2009 were cold but dry  and 2010 was  a  1 in 100 years event. 

Stormchaser
21 November 2014 11:18:27

Shifting focus to the short range, the latest runs have adjusted the positioning of the frontal boundary Saturday and Sunday east again, so that it extends NE from Central Southern England.


It barely moves throughout the weekend, just wiggling about on the spot as waves of precipitation travel along it SW to NE.


The net result over the coming 48 hours according to Euro4:


Precipitation accum. EURO4 Fr 21.11.2014 15 GMT


Nothing extreme, but could be a bit troublesome after so much rain already this month.


What's more, the event is nowhere near done at this time with perhaps half as much again possible before the frontal system clears away later Sunday, if GFS is used as guidance.


Speaking of GFS, it only predicts around half as much precipitation within the next 48 hours. GFSP is closer to Euro4 but still some 5 mm short. I suspect that's  down to embedded convective features - Euro4 tends to handle that sort of thing well, and has preformed generally better than GFS and GFSP during recent slow moving frontal system events.


...but it's far from infallible - this morning there has been spells of light to moderate precipitation widely across the western half of England, and this was completely overlooked by Euro4. Whoops!


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Saint Snow
21 November 2014 11:32:10

The Decembers of 2008 and 2009 were cold but dry  and 2010 was  a  1 in 100 years event. 


Originally Posted by: roger63 


 


Granted 2010 was a 'once in a lifetime' experience. I can't recall Dec 08, but I don't remember Dec 09 being dry, at least not in this neck of the woods - quite the opposite, with bands of rain & showers turning increasingly wintry from mid-month. The first time we got lying snow was on the 20th (a mix of graupel & flakes heavy showers, brought in on a NW'ly). The previous weekend had been forecasted as a possible snow event, and we were out with the outlaws for a meal at a lovely country pub at altitude in Cheshire, me furtively glancing at the MetO radar on my phone, hoping we'd be hit by a blizzard. It was just sleety rain.


 



Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Polar Low
21 November 2014 11:43:18

That's not true Roger Dec 81 was fab for most of the uk


 



 


 


 



 


The latest GFS shows the Jet flattening and the Atlantic slowly taking control again out to  to early December .Frankly December is rarely a  snowy month.The Decembers of 2008 and 2009 were cold but dry  and 2010 was  a  1 in 100 years event. 


Originally Posted by: roger63 

Quantum
21 November 2014 11:46:59

Disastrous ECM run today:



A case of, "just when you think nothing is ever going to get any better, it suddenly get's worse".


 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Polar Low
21 November 2014 12:09:55

Indeed Q but its strange how gm drops it first then changes her mind nowt to tap into thou.


looked at all gm members last night think it was 6 with 1060 to our n/e only one member, now opp wants to look a bit like it rather fishy indeed.


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=204&mode=0&carte=1


 


 


 


 



Disastrous ECM run today:



A case of, "just when you think nothing is ever going to get any better, it suddenly get's worse".


 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Polar Low
21 November 2014 12:13:08

Thanks ever so much Martin.


 



HERE IS MY LATEST ANALYSIS FROM THE OUTPUTS OF THE WEATHER COMPUTER PREDICTION MODELS FOR TWO WEEKS FROM 8AM TODAY FRIDAY NOVEMBER 21ST 2014.


NEXT UPDATE SATURDAY NOVEMBER 22ND 08:00


THE CURRENT GENERAL SITUATION A complex series of troughs will move slowly NE across the UK today and become slow moving near to SE Britain from tomorrow morning with wave disturbances running North along it at times over the weekend. Pressure rises strongly across the North from tomorrow.


MODELS-2 WEEK HEADLINE Slowly becoming windier and more changeable next week and beyond with rain or showers and strong winds at times moving down from the NW. Temperatures near or a little below average.


THE JET STREAM ENSEMBLE FORECAST The GFS Jet Stream Ensemble forecast shows the disrupted flow to the West of the UK continuing over the next week with something of a split flow over Europe-one arm high over the Arctic and another one well South over the Med or North Africa. The pattern simplifies in Week 2 as the pattern flattens and a strong flow crosses the Atlantic and Southern Britain later in the period.


GFS OPERATIONAL The GFS operational this morning shows asteady trend towards a more unsettled spell as Low pressure develops and moves down from the NW later next week. There will be spells of rain and showers as a result in temperatures close to or slightly below the seasonal average in increasingly blustery winds. Through Week 2 the winds remain strong and from the West with further spells of rain with temperatures recovering to average or somewhat above in the South as the pattern flattens to a more traditional West to East flow of Low ressure to the North of the UK.


THE GFS PARALLEL RUN The GFS Parallel run is basically similar in trend and sequence of events with the unsettled and breezy weather revolving around deepening Low pressure over the UK later next week gradually simplifying as pressure rises from the South with Low pressure then to the North carrying wind and rain to more especially Northern areas later while the South sees longer drier phases when temperatures will reach and exceed normal values at times.


THE GFS ENSEMBLES The GFS Ensembles agree with the first half of the partner runs in as much as deep Low pressure develops close to Southern Britain later next week with much wind and rain for all as a result. It then diverges away from the operational and parallel runs in as much as it maintains deep Low pressure sweeping East over the UK rather than to the North with potentially quite stormy conditions at times in periods of rain and showers and temperatures close to average overall.


UKMO UKMO today shows very benign conditions under a slack pressure area from Days 4 to 6 with variable conditions as a result with a mix of sunshine, mist, fog, frost and a little rain all possible with a little sunshine too for the lucky few. Conditions do look like deteriorating from the NW soon after close of the run.


THE FAX CHARTS The Fax Charts continue to show a complex pressure pattern under basically High pressure over the weekend and start to the new week. Complex frontal activity will prevail near the SE of the UK for the next 72 hours and again by 120hours as well as new versions approaching from the West at the end of the Fax period.


GEM GEM this morning shows the UK remaining the battleground between a block of High pressure over Europe and repetitive Low pressure moving in off the Atlantic and disrupting SE while filling over the UK. This means that after a quiet period early next week more wind and rain is likely thereafter in temperatures close to average but feeling chilly in blustery winds at times.


NAVGEM NAVGEM also shows the theme of Low pressure developing and sliding down towards the UK from the NW later next week with rain and wind increasing in intensity and extent with time in blustery winds too but average temperatures overall.


ECM ECM this morning remains in the habit of being somewhat different to the majority, this morning making rather less of the disrupted Low pressure pattern of later next week before pulling Low pressure further towards a position North of the UK and subsequently taking a lot of it's rain with it while the majority of the UK remain bathed in a relatively mild and Westerly pattern.


THE ECM ENSEMBLES The Ensemble run continues to show a deep trough lying from Southern Greenland through the West of the UK to the Meditteranean with cyclonic South or SW winds across the UK with spells of rain and showers for all likely in average tmperatures overall.


NOTABLE TREND CHANGES FROM PREVIOUS RUNS The trend still is relatively one of Atlantic Low pressure gradually taking control of the weather with some disagreement on the positioning and resulting surface conditions in what remains a largely wintry free run.


MY THOUGHTS The output remains very mixed in detail between the models but the general message from them all is similar in that all areas are going to see rain at times across the period. For a time with Low pressure predicted to lie close to or indeed over the UK later next week some very wet weather is likely in places with winds occasionally strong but variable in direction. At this time temperatures may be held back close to or a little below average at times. Thereafter the general trend with exceptions is for Low pressure and the Jet Stream to move North and flatten. There is some evidence that Low pressure will go far enough North in Week 2 to bring drier air across Southern areas from High pressure developing to the South which of course means mild Westerly winds as a result. However there remains enough support too for very unsettled and windy and at times wet weather to persist for all under deep Low pressure lying close to the UK. The High pressure block to the East remains in situ but has shifted away from supplying too much influence to the UK later as the barrage of Atlantic Low pressure overrides it and displaces any chance of cold from a Continental source reaching the UK on this occasion. A more worrying trend is the rise of pressure to the South which is shown on several outputs this morning which coupled with High pressure over Eastern Europe could form an unwelcome Euro High block to the SE of the UK with a mobile Atlantic setup developing delivering most wind and rain to the North and West later. Once this pattern has formed it can prove stubborn to shift and delay a shift towards a more seasonal pattern while maintaining the string of warmer than average months that have occurred this year. However, there is a lot of water to pass under the bridge before we reach that stage and we still have the ECM Ensemble data this morning showing more support for a more entrenched and deep UK trough keeping things volatile and unsettled for all.


Originally Posted by: GIBBY 

Maunder Minimum
21 November 2014 12:22:43


That's not true Roger Dec 81 was fab for most of the uk


 



 


 


 


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


Happy days, charts to drool over and superb weather! Will we ever see the like again?


New world order coming.
Russwirral
21 November 2014 12:46:49


 


Happy days, charts to drool over and superb weather! Will we ever see the like again?


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


 


Its a shame that the 24th Dec chart really isnt far away from the setup we're seeing now.  Its just Europe is very warm at the moment and the air wrapped around the low as a consequence is just a regurgitation of that mildish air.


 


https://max.nwstatic.co.uk/gfsimages/gfs.20141121/06/12/h850t850eu.png


 


 


Gavin P
21 November 2014 12:52:06

Hi all,


Here's today's video update. It's a biggie today!


Month ahead look-ahead with JMA Friday + We also have the final winter 14/15 update from Beijing Climate Center;

http://www.gavsweathervids.com/


Rural West Northants 120m asl
Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids
Solar Cycles
21 November 2014 13:12:14

Nice update from those lovely Chinese and ties in with my own thoughts for this coming winter, so it's a mild and wet one then.

AIMSIR
21 November 2014 13:42:40

Cheers, Gav.
Interesting and well presented,as always.
Looking forward to the next update.

Fothergill
21 November 2014 14:04:40

That block to the E surely is looking stubborn. ECM mean at day 10 shows us back to the stalemate.



 The Atlantic is struggling to dominate us despite getting a foot in now and then. It looks likely that it will eventually take over - the PV looks quite energised to the NW which should add plenty of fuel - but that block has been resilient too. The NAEFS is more progressive however - perhaps something in between the ECM and NAEFS at day 10 is a good shout with the N and W facing the brunt of the westerlies.


http://images.meteociel.fr/im/3713/naefs-1-0-240_mkb5.png


One thing we can be fairly sure of is that there's little sign of cold for the forseeable with almost all Europe in above average uppers.


Russwirral
21 November 2014 14:12:54


That block to the E surely is looking stubborn. ECM mean at day 10 shows us back to the stalemate.


Originally Posted by: Fothergill 


 


Aye the main issue with it - is how far south it reaches, which is quite unusual.  As a result it completley shuts off any attempt of cold air reaching anywhere beyong the far reaches of eastern europe.  Once the pressure drops over the likes of Turkey etc, then things will get interesting.


 


 


JACKO4EVER
21 November 2014 16:40:55


That block to the E surely is looking stubborn. ECM mean at day 10 shows us back to the stalemate.



 The Atlantic is struggling to dominate us despite getting a foot in now and then. It looks likely that it will eventually take over - the PV looks quite energised to the NW which should add plenty of fuel - but that block has been resilient too. The NAEFS is more progressive however - perhaps something in between the ECM and NAEFS at day 10 is a good shout with the N and W facing the brunt of the westerlies.


http://images.meteociel.fr/im/3713/naefs-1-0-240_mkb5.png


One thing we can be fairly sure of is that there's little sign of cold for the forseeable with almost all Europe in above average uppers.



Originally Posted by: Fothergill 


good post. I for one don't like this repeating pattern, for at some point you know we are going to get stalling fronts and lots of rain. Could be a very wet start to December, especially in the West.

Russwirral
21 November 2014 16:44:14

the 12z makes the east a bit colder this time round.  Not by much, but will interesting to see if there is the sign of momentum towards a colder continent on the ensembles.


Meanwhile the block takes up battle with the Atlantic.. the saga continues.


Polar Low
21 November 2014 17:05:38

Has ukmo spoted it first? help from the pole


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ukmo2.php?nh=1&ech=144&carte=1021


 gfs at that time


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=144&mode=0&carte=1


 

Polar Low
21 November 2014 17:23:07
Russwirral
21 November 2014 17:25:32


intresting gfs members in the mix


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=15&ech=174&mode=0&carte=1


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


 


Yeh very subtle but important change on the latest GFS and to an extent the METO.  Hopefully this isnt a one off and will be reflected later in the ECM and 18z


Charmhills
21 November 2014 17:30:58

GFS 12z highlights the risk of a lot of rain in places and some flooding could be an issue next week for some areas.


Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.
David M Porter
21 November 2014 17:35:09


intresting gfs members in the mix


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=15&ech=174&mode=0&carte=1


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


Hmm, I wonder if the GFS 12Z operation has been among the milder options.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Polar Low
21 November 2014 17:46:23
JACKO4EVER
21 November 2014 17:48:14


 


Hmm, I wonder if the GFS 12Z operation has been among the milder options.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


I doubt it David... Just one ripple in a tumultuous sea of data. Interesting non the less, though I suspect it will be gone by tomorrow 

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