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Quantum
27 November 2014 19:09:52

Can anyone else believe that gradient Over America; its at its greatest here but a few hours before the 20C line was visible!. If that gradient was over the UK, then scotland would see its coldest November temperature ever while England simultaneously sees the warmest November temperature ever. 



2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
David M Porter
27 November 2014 19:16:47


Geez people are really getting desperate now. I haven't posted in here regularly because the outlook is just so appalling; it feels like last year again when people would grasp at even the most tenuous straws. I see no sign of anything but an active atlantic and the occasional cold sector. The fact people are resorting to showing northerly topplers (which don't produce snow for 90% of the country) in the 300+ range is testament to how bad it is. Even the strat is offering no comfort; earlier in the week there was some promising warming right at the top of the strat, now it seems that this is only really going to push the polar vortex onto our side of the arctic; if anything this is just going to make it worse; i'm starting to think polar vortex displacements do far more harm than good when the warming is not on our side. No sign of any real SSW event of course, just the same straws that were offered last year. 


Originally Posted by: Quantum 


To be honest I struggle to recall much if anything by way of straws being offered to us last winter. There was discussion at times in January & February of some SSW taking place if I recall rightly, but if any did take place it did nothing to alter the general model output.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Quantum
27 November 2014 19:51:34


 


To be honest I struggle to recall much if anything by way of straws being offered to us last winter. There was discussion at times in January & February of some SSW taking place if I recall rightly, but if any did take place it did nothing to alter the general model output.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


There was also high pressure over the arctic, its really a repeat of the discussion we are seeing now. Its uncannily similar. 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Medlock Vale Weather
27 November 2014 20:23:58

Yes I echo GTW's post - Thankfully unlike last year there isn't extreme cold across the Eastern portion of the states to drive cyclogenesis and develop those deep pressure systems intent on moving toward us.


For instance Boston looks mainly above average temp wise as we move into December.



Alan in Medlock Valley - Oldham's frost hollow. 103 metres above sea level.
What is a frost hollow? http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/Frost-hollow.htm 
Andy Woodcock
27 November 2014 21:00:16
Look up the charts for early December 1981 and they look similar to now with high pressure over or to the SW of the UK, the temperature reached 15c in Aberdeen on the 3rd!

With a disorganised vortex the pattern can change quickly and many a cold spell has been preceded by mid latitude highs and gloomy conditions.

The models hint at several NW or northerly outbreaks as we head into December and these could easily turn into something much more interesting.

Have faith in the OPI, this winter will deliver!

Andy
Andy Woodcock
Penrith
Cumbria

Altitude 535 feet

"Why are the British so worried about climate change? Any change to their climate can only be an improvement" John Daley 2001
Quantum
27 November 2014 21:17:51

Look up the charts for early December 1981 and they look similar to now with high pressure over or to the SW of the UK, the temperature reached 15c in Aberdeen on the 3rd!

With a disorganised vortex the pattern can change quickly and many a cold spell has been preceded by mid latitude highs and gloomy conditions.

The models hint at several NW or northerly outbreaks as we head into December and these could easily turn into something much more interesting.

Have faith in the OPI, this winter will deliver!

Andy

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 


I find it difficult to have faith in the OPI when I don't even know what it is, does anyone know what it actually measures? 


2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
festivalking
27 November 2014 21:25:59

Makes me giggle it feels very pessimistic in here at the moment where as other channels are up beat with the models. More realistic in here or is the 2010 bench mark to high.....


Dousland, Dartmoor 206 m/asl
Its only going to snow when Gibby says so.
Hippydave
27 November 2014 21:37:15


All looks fairly benign to me for the forseable - mid-lat blocking wandering over the UK being kept from doing anything interesting by a jet that at least for a time looks to be firing past Scotland. Mild in the short term, a rapid drop to chilly after that for a short period before a wander back to average/slightly above.


More chance of some dry quiet weather the further south you are, the opposite being true at the other end of the UK.


It's not exciting, it may or may not stay this way for a while, but it's only the end of November and it is pretty typical UK weather.


And on the already massively tedious subject of 'last winter was wet and mild, this year will be' - oddly enough before last years rather unusual winter the US had notable cold plunges and they occurred in winters where the UK had cold weather. It's a normal pattern for them, and given we're downstream, a normal pattern for us. No one seems to be posting charts showing the pacific pattern (which I seem to recall was highlighted as a driver for the buckled jet allowing the PV to drop in the US and stay there) as being identical to last year.


Unless anyone wants to jump in and do so, can we stop the wailing/teeth gnashing and comment on why the current pattern is as it is, where it could lead etc. without constantly referring to last winter.


If not it's going to be a long ol' silly season, particularly if it does stay mild


P.S Perhaps we could bring back the Winter Whining thread again - sure we had one last year and it would give people a place to vent without clogging this thread up


 


 


 


Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Polar Low
27 November 2014 21:49:34

Thats unreal the size of that monster


http://mp1.met.psu.edu/~fxg1/ECMWF_0z/hgtcomp.html


 

Jonesy
27 November 2014 22:06:02

GFS shows a hint of something across the borders on Tuesday http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/royaume-uni/precipitations-hd/102h.htm


Medway Towns (Kent)
The Weather will do what it wants, when it wants, no matter what data is thrown at it !
Snowfan
27 November 2014 22:14:03
How can the pattern be extremely bleak when it was the opposite just a few days ago?! The charts might change again tomorrow! 😃
"Let It Snow, Let It Snow, Let It Snow! "
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Polar Low
27 November 2014 22:14:33

Perhaps a slushy mix at height for a short while


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rtavn1023.gif


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=102&mode=1


 



GFS shows a hint of something across the borders on Tuesday http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/royaume-uni/precipitations-hd/102h.htm


Originally Posted by: Jonesy 

Medlock Vale Weather
27 November 2014 22:33:54

JMA shows bitter air moving into Eastern Europe



Alan in Medlock Valley - Oldham's frost hollow. 103 metres above sea level.
What is a frost hollow? http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/Frost-hollow.htm 
Russwirral
27 November 2014 22:34:13

That cut off LP is a bit of an odd feature... and has an odd effect on the HP.. 


 


Netweather GFS Image


Osprey
27 November 2014 23:04:58

Btw, where is the library


Nobody likes a smartass, especially another smartass...
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
27 November 2014 23:12:30


 


To be honest I struggle to recall much if anything by way of straws being offered to us last winter. There was discussion at times in January & February of some SSW taking place if I recall rightly, but if any did take place it did nothing to alter the general model output.


Originally Posted by: David M Porter 


There was indeed significant stratospheric warming in January and early Feb this year with wave 1 and wave 2 activity propagating down to the 30hPa level. But it did not result in any cold weather in our part of the world. The very recent warming in the stratosphere has similarly had little impact on the UK to date.


Vertical temperature chart http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat-trop/gif_files/time_pres_TEMP_MEAN_ALL_NH_2014.gif


Anomaly temperature chart http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat-trop/gif_files/time_pres_TEMP_ANOM_ALL_NH_2014.gif


Wave 1 http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat-trop/gif_files/time_pres_WAVE1_MEAN_ALL_NH_2014.gif


Wave 2 http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat-trop/gif_files/time_pres_WAVE2_MEAN_ALL_NH_2014.gif


The charts below show nicely the recent warming at the 30hPa and 10hPa levels. At the 10hPa level the temperature is currently higher than in any other year since 1979 at the same point in November. Very high temperatures were also recorded in late Jan and early March this year but did not impact us at the surface.


Conversely the extended period of warmth in Jan 2013 which you can also see on the charts did of course have some impact.


10hPa http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/temperature/10mb9065.gif


30hPa http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/temperature/30mb9065.gif

Zubzero
27 November 2014 23:12:44


Btw, where is the library


Originally Posted by: Osprey 


It's seen this chart http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/runs/2014112718/gfsnh-0-180.png?18


and retired for the winter.


 


http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twocommunity/default.aspx?g=topics&f=5 


You may need to change you're settings to see older post's to see it in the forum list i'm not sure

Osprey
27 November 2014 23:22:42


 


It's seen this chart http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/runs/2014112718/gfsnh-0-180.png?18


and retired for the winter.


 


http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twocommunity/default.aspx?g=topics&f=5 


You may need to change you're settings to see older post's to see it in the forum list i'm not sure


Originally Posted by: Zubzero 


Thanks for that link ZZ, it works fine


Nobody likes a smartass, especially another smartass...
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Stormchaser
27 November 2014 23:43:15

I'm familiar with how things usually go from this kind of position in terms of model output - critical changes to break us out of the rut tend not to be picked up at the longer range, with the models tending to maintain the status quo in the absence of a strong enough signal for something different.


In fact, last winter began with a huge blocking high across the UK, and during the last week of November and first few days to a week of December, the models had high pressure sticking around for the foreseeable with little sign of a breakdown. Long range models such as CFS and the Met Office ensemble sang from the same hymn sheet.


They could not have turned out to be wider of the mark.


 


So it really is best to sit back and let things lie until the models pick up on something that might change the game. Usually there are a few red herrings, but then along comes the real deal, after which it tends to escalate quite quickly.


It's sorting the red herrings from the real deals that makes detailed yet accurate longer range forecasting almost certainly impossible. The best we can reasonably expect to do is look at large scale forcing mechanisms and what patterns they look to be in favour of. It may also be possible to get some idea as to when certain patterns may transition into others, but this usually only gives a very rough idea.


 


Current model output shows no sign of the extreme Pacific/U.S. jet pattern of last winter setting up, instead featuring a steady progression of ridges and troughs through the U.S. in a fairly flat pattern which prevents cold pooling in the eastern U.S.


There is then, if anything, some suggestion of ridges becoming more dominant across the eastern U.S. (probably largely in response to some high-amplitude MJO forcing), which would be a total contrast to the situation that developed last December.


 


Let's just chill out, look forward to the weekend, then make the most of the widespread useable weather that looks to be on offer 


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
GIBBY
28 November 2014 00:06:28
As usual James a balanced level headed approach to where we are at tonight. Tomorrow is another day and a new set of runs so who knows what they may throw at us...
Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Scandy 1050 MB
28 November 2014 07:12:10

Interesting runs this morning which shows great uncertainty in regards to the positioning of the large High Pressure area close to the British Isles next week. I would say they are an improvement on yesterday (GFS being the exception).


Here's GFS at 192 hours:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=192&mode=0


But in deep FI ends up like an early 2000's winter classic - if you like it warm, dry and mild this one is for you, otherwise have the sick bag ready:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?&ech=384&mode=0


 


ECM is a half way house between GFS and GEM:


192 hours:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=192&mode=1&map=0&type=0&archive=0


And at end of the run:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=240&mode=1&map=0&type=0&archive=0


 


Far more interest than GFS but pick of the bunch is GEM:


192 hours:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=192&mode=0&carte=0


And at the end of the run:


http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/geme_cartes.php?&ech=240&mode=0&carte=0


 


Looking at all of them allowing for GEM's overdone charts as it does sometimes, it looks like ECM could be the most likely solution however the models are not in agreement with GFS which is a good thing - still some interest and all depends on where the HP ends up next week as to the type of weather we experience. More runs needed and let's hope GFS falls into line with ECM and GEM.


 

nsrobins
28 November 2014 07:29:07

A large northerly displaced Azores-Euro slug is the order of the day as we move into the first week of winter.
Saturday sums it up for me - 15C in places in an Easterly.
Not very inspiring is it LOL.


Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Andy Woodcock
28 November 2014 08:01:51
Yes, Gfs is a horror show and put me off my morning coffee!

It reminded me of some of the worst winters of the past notably December 1974 which had a large Biscay High throughout the month and was the warmest on record.

Let's just bin the Gfs because if it's right I will see you at the Airport.

Much more appealing and likely IMO is ECM which has some interested and longer term potential with a brief northerly and the high further north and west.

Andy
Andy Woodcock
Penrith
Cumbria

Altitude 535 feet

"Why are the British so worried about climate change? Any change to their climate can only be an improvement" John Daley 2001
Gooner
28 November 2014 08:11:58

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gem/runs/2014112800/gemnh-0-198.png?00


Settle for this


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus
Banbury
North Oxfordshire
378 feet A S L


Tractor Boy
28 November 2014 08:12:21

In my daily (yet seasonal) search for weather eye candy, GEM at day 10 is the best on offer this morning as far as I can tell. Doesn't look very sustainable but cold nonetheless (and probably grey and drizzly).


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/Rgem2401.gif 


Dave
Farndale, North York Moors

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