Tony says the route to the summit is through the centre. And he is right.

Originally Posted by: Justin W 

Why on earth besides choosing Douglas Alexander as election coordinator did they choose Lucy Powell as vice chair to the election campaign?

She was absolutely hopeless. 

Originally Posted by: KevBrads1 

That's likely to be as much to do with the previous council being utterly incompetent when it came to the handling of Manston as it is to do with liking UKIP!

(For those who weren't aware, Manston was a historic airport in Thanet, used for cargo flights, training (BA used it for their A380), aircraft dismantling and occasional passenger flights - several airlines have come and gone over the years, most recently KLM. It also served as an emergency base for pilots in trouble nearby.

Anyway, some businesswoman called Anne Gloag bought it for a pound. A US consortium offered to buy the place for several million pounds, operating primarily as a cargo airport with a sideline in dismantling old aircraft - essentially a continuation of its old role, with more focus on cargo. They came back with several offers as each was turned down by Gloag.

A few months later Gloag said the airport would never be viable and sold it to some housing developers ....

Originally Posted by: Retron 

Winning a by-election on the lowest turnout since WWII?

Hmmm, on second thoughts, that probably reinforces your point.

Originally Posted by: SEMerc 

Priceless for a socialist luvvie:

"In addition, Church's extravagant spending is well documented. She admitted spending £4,260 on a designer dress when she was only 17 and has spent £800,000 on a yacht, £3,000 on champagne in one session and likes to enjoy expensive holidays for friends and family."

If these silly celebs really have a social conscience, they should use it in charitable good works, not in ranting about the outcome of a general election or in parading their political beliefs during a general election campaign!

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 

She's earned her money. She has talent, fair play to her. But why do you feel that she does not have the right to express her political beliefs simply because she is a 'silly celeb' ?

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 

Tony says the route to the summit is through the centre. And he is right.

Originally Posted by: Justin W 

Tony gets it - the problem is that three quarters of his party don't get it, in particular the activists. Labour also has the problem that their former Celtic heartlands don't get it at all (hence one of the routes back to power for Labour is to make their Scottish and Welsh parties completely separate and independent entities).

If Labour became a totally Blairite party with a good dose of genuine liberalism thrown in, even I might consider voting for it under the right circumstances. That means giving up the politics of envy, it means not seeing the wealth creators as the enemy and it means not wanting to punish those who earn high incomes, but instead to simply make sure they pay the right amount of tax.

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 

Tony gets it - the problem is that three quarters of his party don't get it, in particular the activists. Labour also has the problem that their former Celtic heartlands don't get it at all (hence one of the routes back to power for Labour is to make their Scottish and Welsh parties completely separate and independent entities).

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 

 Under this bunch of self-serving elitists?

Get real. Of course, they'll peddle the total myth of 'trickle down' politics, cutting taxes for the wealthiest whilst cutting services & benefits for everyone else. But privately they'll be raising toast to the innate ability of ordinary British people to vote for a government that acts completely against their overall interests.

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

Tony gets it - the problem is that three quarters of his party don't get it, in particular the activists. Labour also has the problem that their former Celtic heartlands don't get it at all (hence one of the routes back to power for Labour is to make their Scottish and Welsh parties completely separate and independent entities).

If Labour became a totally Blairite party with a good dose of genuine liberalism thrown in, even I might consider voting for it under the right circumstances. That means giving up the politics of envy, it means not seeing the wealth creators as the enemy and it means not wanting to punish those who earn high incomes, but instead to simply make sure they pay the right amount of tax.

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 

But...what is the point of a political party if all it does is copy the policies of another party?

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

The Labour Party was created as the political wing of the labour movement, which itself had the aim of redressing the imbalance of power held by the owners of capital, through the use of solidarity & collectivism.

The imbalance of power held by the owners of capital still prevails - as does the need for a political movement to fight this. Indeed, after years of progress, since the 1980's the balance has swung back toward the owners of capital. Not all of it is government policy; much has to do with globalisation & the increased mobility of labour. But the Labour Party long gave up any pretence that it fights for better equalisation of power & redistribution of wealth.

Therefore, it's already lost much of its raison d'etre. It's tried to reshape itself as a party that's 'not as c*ntish as the Tories', which is better than the alternative - but it's lost a very substantial chunk of its support through doing so. Bliar managed to initially retain most Labour support to add to the swathes of new Labour voters - but that was more because people on the left just wanted any change from the nightmare of two decades of Tory rule. In successive elections, NuLabour lost votes from the left.

Labour's issue now is being able to attract votes from the Tories/Lib Dems (and back from UKIP, although I think UKIP have had their peak), whilst not alienating voters from the other end (the left).

With a coherent narrative to pull policy together, a less EU-slavish stance, keeping more contentious policy out of the headlights & short of detail (read the Tories' £12bn welfare cuts, which the media allowed them to keep off the agenda & undetailed), and a good leader-deputy leader broad appeal, they could recapture the sort of support of those people who vote Tory but whilst holding their nose and ignoring their conscience.

Beats opposition?

Originally Posted by: Devonian 

But what is the point in being in government if all you're going to do is implement the same broad agenda & policies as the other guys?

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

Look, I've been there, back in around 1992, pondering if Labour needed to be more like the Tories to win power. Then NuLabour was spawned, I came to the above conclusion, and abandoned the party I'd supported since being politically aware & had been a member of.

I still see Labour as one of those old friends you were really pally with when you were kids, but who then goes in a life direction totally at odds with yours, so you drift apart & end up with nothing in common.

I'll add that it's incredibly difficult being on 'the left'. It's a broad church that attracts some real f*cking imbeciles and loony ideas. The nature of socialism means that everyone makes an effort to be inclusive, and it's this which has 1) diluted the left's message, as crackers side-issues (equal rights for one-legged lesbian Muslim basket weavers) get adopted; and 2) allowed opponents of the left an open goal to denigrate & ridicule the whole principle of leftism.

The left needs to refocus on core beliefs - addressing extreme wealth inequality, improving rights for workers, providing strong & well-funded public services, etc - and, more importantly, putting forward a coherent, simple narrative to present as the argument against the corporate-capitalist message.

Because it beats the impotency of opposition? Labour 1997-2010 wasn't great but the tories would have been a whole lot different.

We're both left of centre. If we were right of centre we'd both be Conservatives. We'd have just 'won' this election. As it is the difference between my more world view and yours shouldn't be enough for us to be in different parties - should it? At least not when the one instrument of change in this country is elections held using ykw, that most blunt, unsophisticated, unrepresentative of systems.

I've been sitting here today wondering what to do. Join the LD's? Join Labour? Give up on politics and help, I dunno, the RSPB to preseve what's left of our wildlife cos there is nowt I can do for it's people by politics? I wonder if a extraparliamentry force for good might develop as left wing views are extinguished from having any influence in England?

And all that, all that will happen because the left can't do what it has to do to get elected? I don't care if it's not very left, look at the enemy (its the Cons) not the Popular Front, Peoples Frontean Peoples etc etc etc

Originally Posted by: Devonian 

 Indeed, these are very difficult times to be of a more left wing persuasion. I have given up on mainstream politics and have joined an organisation that is helping spread the message of climate change and ecological issues here in Australia in our community. It's not difficult to give up on mainstream politics, Our prime minister here in Australia as an example sent the new baby princess a lump of coal with the message ' the future of mankind'. I actually feel a bit sorry for Tony Abbott he's a bit like a fossil himself, I can see how he would get on with Prince Phillip. 

Originally Posted by: Perthite1 

Tony Abbott is brilliant! I only wish we had a politician of his stature in mainland Europe:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/no-boats-in-100-days-tony-abbott-claims-victory-20140329-35pvp.html

"After 100 days without the arrival of an asylum seeker boat on Australian shores, the Prime Minister claimed victory on Saturday: He had stopped the boats.

"We can say to all of the people who scoffed, we can say to all of the people who said it couldn’t be done … that it was just a simple slogan - that it can be done," Tony Abbott said."

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 

That means giving up the politics of envy, it means not seeing the wealth creators as the enemy and it means not wanting to punish those who earn high incomes, but instead to simply make sure they pay the right amount of tax.

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 

The politics of envy is just a myth. Nobody minds people earning high incomes. What they object to is people who have high incomes and don't earn them.

Originally Posted by: Ulric 

But what is the point in being in government if all you're going to do is implement the same broad agenda & policies as the other guys?

Look, I've been there, back in around 1992, pondering if Labour needed to be more like the Tories to win power. Then NuLabour was spawned, I came to the above conclusion, and abandoned the party I'd supported since being politically aware & had been a member of.

I still see Labour as one of those old friends you were really pally with when you were kids, but who then goes in a life direction totally at odds with yours, so you drift apart & end up with nothing in common.

I'll add that it's incredibly difficult being on 'the left'. It's a broad church that attracts some real f*cking imbeciles and loony ideas. The nature of socialism means that everyone makes an effort to be inclusive, and it's this which has 1) diluted the left's message, as crackers side-issues (equal rights for one-legged lesbian Muslim basket weavers) get adopted; and 2) allowed opponents of the left an open goal to denigrate & ridicule the whole principle of leftism.

The left needs to refocus on core beliefs - addressing extreme wealth inequality, improving rights for workers, providing strong & well-funded public services, etc - and, more importantly, putting forward a coherent, simple narrative to present as the argument against the corporate-capitalist message.

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow