Remove ads from site

Stormchaser
21 December 2015 09:43:37
The question is whether we end up in that troublesome day 7+ ECM position in the first place. Shortwave drama to the SW 25th-27th needs to be sorted out first, as those runs that have it interact with the main Atlantic trough and then merge are producing a strong push NE of the jet which then starts to overrun the Sceuro high.

I've seen both ECM and GFS overcooked these shortwaves in times past, but not reliably enough to expect that this time around with much confidence.

In terms of attacking the vortex for longer term gain, as long as a ridge holds on in Scandi we have some good potential especially if there's ridging in the vicinity of Alaska too. The main dampener of hopes is that the vortex is exceptionally strong at the moment with self-perpetuating characteristics. We're going to need some mighty forcing to take it down.

May the forcing be with us!
If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On
Maunder Minimum
21 December 2015 09:58:33


 


Well of course it only goes to DEC 31 but as Gibby and others have said the pattern is so poor that you can assume that the route to any cold would be a long one from the poor position, taking us well into Jan


Originally Posted by: Shropshire 


But I actually disagree in this case - if we were seeing a classic zonal setup for the foreseeable, then I would agree with you 100%, but that is not what we are seeing. The form horse for the UK is to see mild gunk stretching out nauseatingly for ever, but the charts being shown would not take much tweaking to deliver a decent outcome. Therefore, it is not possible to predict a guaranteed mild January from that point, even though it is the most likely outcome. After all, 1947 delivered in spades from a synoptic position not a million miles from what is being shown in the FI charts.


New world order coming.
some faraway beach
21 December 2015 10:00:13

Gibby:


I know some people don't rate the ECM 10 day Mean Chart but I fine it as good a guide as any and over the last month it has been 100% right in maintaining the look it still has this morning with Low pressure up to the NW and High over Southern and Eastern Europe keeping mild and balmy SW winds across the UK with rain at times. While it's own Operational model has wobbled from this pattern at times the Mean Chart has not wavoured so I can say with some confidence that it will be some considerable time before much in the way of change is likely.


Does the 10-day ECM mean chart ever show any other pattern though? It's what any average of warm, cold and, er, average runs would show, and at that range, with 50 runs to play with, there are virtually always going to be examples of all three.


And as the average UK winter weather is mild, then that 10-day mean chart is always going to verify well. But does that actually make the chart of any use? You could come to the same conclusion just by saying "mild in 10 days' time". Even in the depths of a UK cold spell that is by far the likeliest weather 240 hrs later.


That's why I prefer to wait for the ensemble forecast to update to see whether there are any viable trends away from the average, and try to gauge uncertainty rather than just accept the mean:


http://www.weathercast.co.uk/services/ensemble-forecast.html


 


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Gusty
21 December 2015 10:13:27


Gibby:


I know some people don't rate the ECM 10 day Mean Chart but I fine it as good a guide as any and over the last month it has been 100% right in maintaining the look it still has this morning with Low pressure up to the NW and High over Southern and Eastern Europe keeping mild and balmy SW winds across the UK with rain at times. While it's own Operational model has wobbled from this pattern at times the Mean Chart has not wavoured so I can say with some confidence that it will be some considerable time before much in the way of change is likely.


Does the 10-day ECM mean chart ever show any other pattern though? It's what any average of warm, cold and, er, average runs would show, and at that range, with 50 runs to play with, there are virtually always going to be examples of all three.


And as the average UK winter weather is mild, then that 10-day mean chart is always going to verify well. But does that actually make the chart of any use? You could come to the same conclusion just by saying "mild in 10 days' time". Even in the depths of a UK cold spell that is by far the likeliest weather 240 hrs later.


That's why I prefer to wait for the ensemble forecast to update to see whether there are any viable trends away from the average, and try to gauge uncertainty rather than just accept the mean:


http://www.weathercast.co.uk/services/ensemble-forecast.html


 


Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 


I'm not a fan of the mean ensemble. For example what would the mean show if there were 10 perturbations showing raging easterlies and 10 perturbations showing roaring westerlies ? 


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/stevewall69/ 



Tractor Boy
21 December 2015 10:16:28

I'm looking forward to the eye candy charts on Christmas day followed by 3 pages of the annual "lack of data availability over the Christmas period" debate whilst I munch on pringles, followed by terrible charts on Boxing Day and another 3 pages of the same debate whilst eating a turkey sandwich.


Dave
Farndale, North York Moors
Polar Low
21 December 2015 10:21:01

Snap Steve I feel the same the mean gets diluted in the wrong way as time goes on



 


I'm not a fan of the mean ensemble. For example what would the mean show if there were 10 perturbations showing raging easterlies and 10 perturbations showing roaring westerlies ? 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 

Polar Low
21 December 2015 10:24:28

What else would we normally expect Brian we do live in a temperate climate.



As Murray Walker sort of said, "anything can happen and it probably will" but in the UK you discount the mild outcome at your peril. 


Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

Brian Gaze
21 December 2015 10:28:28


What else would we normally expect Brian we do live in a temperate climate.


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


 


Not this...


http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadcet/cet_info_mean.html


 


That's for sure. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
doctormog
21 December 2015 10:29:47


Snap Steve I feel the same the mean gets diluted in the wrong way as time goes on


 


Originally Posted by: Polar Low 


That's why I posted the ensemble spread chart earlier. 


johnm1976
21 December 2015 10:30:31
Why are people discounting interesting post Christmas developments?

I rarely comment, but I do read, and my knowledge is nothing compared to some on here, but tell me if you disagree with what I see in the current long range (mainly GFS and GEFS) output.

1) Strat vortex already displaced over Scandinavia and no sign of moving anywhere else fast (linked to development of SH?)
2) Jet modelled to sweep North, unfortunately, but later sweeping South well outside reliable timeframe but showing up with some frequency.
3) Regular late run hints of both Greenland and Arctic highs. again, outside reliable timeframe but showing up between runs.
4) Tropospheric vortex modelled to get very, very ragged - this seems to be consistent for the last few runs.
5) Hints of further Siberian Warming in Stratospheric vortex showing on GFS, parallel and ensembles. Not at the moment coming into reliable time frame.

Maybe I'm just seeing unusual things that I want to see? Perhaps more expert commenters can tell me?

Looking at the 3 scenarios post Christmas....

1) Euroslug - might develop if ECM/ MetO is to be believed, but other models less sure. GFS/ ensembles bullish about SH and have been for several runs.

2) Sustained cold? Not much sign of that either, but scenarios appearing from which it could develop. If GFS verifies, surface cold will appear in Scandi and Central Europe post Christmas. Always a good start....

3) Increasing cold shots, "topplers"? This is where I'm going to place my bet, based on ragged vortex and past form.

TWO forecast a mild winter with increasingly frequent cold incursions as it progressed. This is in line with other forecasting agencies (the ones which don't engage in sensationalism, anyway). There are some building blocks slotting into place for this type of scenario post Christmas, I think.

What do others think?
roger63
21 December 2015 10:30:53

Re. The ECM 10 day mean chart, with this level of uncertainty to our northeast I would be very very cautious of seeing it as anything other than a merging of many possible different options Originally Posted by: doctormog 

">http://meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf/runs/2015122100/EEM1-240.GIF


Agree doctormog


GEFS eNS have the following split between Zonal and Anticyclonic.


180h  50:50


240h 50;50


360h 65;35


Given that anticyclonic includes HP to E and SE not all Scandi HP's the milder is likely to prevail.However the Zonal flow is more often a colder westerly.There is a wide variety of options on offer so at least an interesting period after Xmas seeing how it resolves

Gusty
21 December 2015 10:34:23

Its all to do with the behaviour of that shortwave low that spins out of the USA from 23rd December. Last night's runs saw it remain detached from the PV but then spin northward to the east of the Greenland serving to dish up some very favourable South to North Warm air advection directly to the nearly 80N to Spitzbergen. 


The 6z appears to take the shortwave low directly across Scandianvia. As a result we don't get the WAA where we need it and height rises over Northern Scandinavia are delayed. At the same time the PV strenthens to our NW..probably used to describe the monstrous blues by Shropshire and the SW-NE flow is maintained and we keep the incredibly mild theme going.



Nevertheless its a fascinating situation. The chances for a significant easterly spell are still there. Despite the chance being very small. 


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/stevewall69/ 



The Beast from the East
21 December 2015 11:04:41

I think January will see a return to "normal" winter conditions. More westerlies and PM incursions so it will feel cooler than it does now. No sign of any cold weather for a long time to come however


"We have some alternative facts for you"
Kelly-Ann Conway - special adviser to the President
Gusty
21 December 2015 12:20:43

A quick check of the GFS ensembles at 240 hours (News Years Eve) shows high pressure dominant to our ENE over Eastern Europe declining SE Wards allowing a mobile westerly or SW'ly flow to cover the UK and eventually Scandinavia. If anything the pattern appears to flatten out as we move into the New Year, the PV appears to lock in to the north with mildness and mobility maintained and occasional cooler westerly flows at times presenting a risk of wintry to the north, particularly high ground. 


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/stevewall69/ 



Maunder Minimum
21 December 2015 12:30:19


A quick check of the GFS ensembles at 240 hours (News Years Eve) shows high pressure dominant to our ENE over Eastern Europe declining SE Wards allowing a mobile westerly or SW'ly flow to cover the UK and eventually Scandinavia. If anything the pattern appears to flatten out as we move into the New Year..mildness and mobility maintained with occasional cooler westerly flows at times. 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


Gusty, that is a very, very depressing observation, yet you end it with a smiley.


What you write is the diametrical opposite of what most of us would prefer.


New world order coming.
Solar Cycles
21 December 2015 12:31:27


A quick check of the GFS ensembles at 240 hours (News Years Eve) shows high pressure dominant to our ENE over Eastern Europe declining SE Wards allowing a mobile westerly or SW'ly flow to cover the UK and eventually Scandinavia. If anything the pattern appears to flatten out as we move into the New Year..mildness and mobility maintained with occasional cooler westerly flows at times. 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 

Without changes to the PV profile and/or lowering  of heights over Europe this is always going to be the outcome. The trouble is how long will it take for the next opportunity to come along.

Gusty
21 December 2015 12:34:23


 


Gusty, that is a very, very depressing observation, yet you end it with a smiley.


What you write is the diametrical opposite of what most of us would prefer.


Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 


Duly edited MM as well as an offering of something slightly more seasonal for northern hills at times. 


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/stevewall69/ 



Gusty
21 December 2015 12:38:02


Without changes to the PV profile and/or lowering  of heights over Europe this is always going to be the outcome. The trouble is how long will it take for the next opportunity to come along.


Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 


This is the problem Solar Cycles. Atmospherically it is normally a very stable pattern once it establishes. The cold gets locked in to the north, the jet fires up and the status quo is maintained. All in is not lost, there is still a small chance around new year.


Steve - Folkestone, Kent
Current conditions from my Davis Vantage Vue
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IFOLKE11 
Join Kent Weather on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/stevewall69/ 



Maunder Minimum
21 December 2015 12:41:54


 


This is the problem Solar Cycles. Atmospherically it is normally a very stable pattern once it establishes. The cold gets locked in to the north, the jet fires up and the status quo is maintained. All in is not lost, there is still a small chance around new year.


Originally Posted by: Gusty 



New world order coming.
LA2B MeridFlowEuro09
21 December 2015 12:52:46

Blimey,


The GFS and the ECMWF, have Cold Pool and PV Low Pressure getting very mighty over Artcic outside NW and North away from UK and Europe, and also Big Family PV Low's NW and North Atlantic for Next Week after this Weekend, a mix of both mild and chilly transitions and chances of heavy rains as well on the Models.


Now we need the High to our East and NE - off us put it E Central NE Europe and SE Arctic and very Cold Low Pressure around Greenland and through it and maybe Send us some Colder NW flow after Next Week, or by New Year ahem and the few days after that.


😄😆💨🌧.


Climate is warming up, Scotland and N Ireland and North England still often gets some Winter frost, ice and snow, November to March, but the SE and South UK including S Central England and Wales, together with the West and North through the year, they sometimes get more rain than London and S SE England, where some longer dry fine spells without much heavy rain is seen every year.

The North Atlantic Sea often gets some much Colder Wintry conditions from November to March Months, and Mild SW and South winds tend to be more frequent over the East and SE of North Atlantic Sea, as the Azores High tends to stay in charge. 

With this warmth and heat, the Central and South UK has become mostly free of snow and frost.
Bertwhistle
21 December 2015 12:57:15


Blimey,


The GFS and the ECMWF, have Cold Pool and PV Low Pressure getting very mighty over Artcic outside NW and North away from UK and Europe, and also Big Family PV Low's NW and North Atlantic for Next Week after this Weekend, a mix of both mild and chilly transitions and chances of heavy rains as well on the Models.


Now we need the High to our East and NE - off us put it E Central NE Europe and SE Arctic and very Cold Low Pressure around Greenland and through it and maybe Send us some Colder NW flow after Next Week, or by New Year ahem and the few days after that.


😄😆💨🌧.


Originally Posted by: LA2B MeridFlowEuro09 


I think there is a bit of a high trying to develop to the east.


Bertie, Itchen Valley.
Retire while you can still press the 'retire now' button.
GIBBY
21 December 2015 13:07:13


 


I'm not a fan of the mean ensemble. For example what would the mean show if there were 10 perturbations showing raging easterlies and 10 perturbations showing roaring westerlies ? 


Originally Posted by: Gusty 


In that case the balance of the other ECM perturbations would help decide which way the average charts bias led. Not an exact Science I concede and there are certain situations usually in colder patterns when this chart does indeed have less clarity and speculation but in this pattern it is nearly always on the money. The one thing I would also make in it's defence while other operational (including it's own) and other member runs have constantly thrown up some colder scenarios off and on over the last month the average chart has always not supported this and when we look back on the last month of weather across the UK it has been every bit right not to have deviated from the pattern it is currently showing as it is exactly what we've had. The only difference shown day to day has been a greater and lesser influence from the High pressure belt to the SE so until the 10 day chart shows definitive signs of change I'm afraid I can quite confidently say that any cold weather is at least 10 or more days away from the UK. 


Martin G
Kilmersdon Radstock Bath Somerset



Look up my New Facebook Weather Page  for all the latest up to the minute weather stories as they happen
Sevendust
21 December 2015 13:42:05


Without changes to the PV profile and/or lowering  of heights over Europe this is always going to be the outcome. The trouble is how long will it take for the next opportunity to come along.


Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 


Exactly

Fothergill
21 December 2015 13:47:22

I find the ENS means and anomalies very useful for seeing which way the winds are blowing in the NWP, rather than taking them literally.


A general trend to lower pressure unsettled Atlantic weather affecting us in the models today with any potential easterly now looking an extreme long shot.


Looks like a lot more rain to come so more flooding issues unfortunately. 


Stormchaser
21 December 2015 14:51:22

It seems we're on course to lose the shortwave battle days 5-7 which is a shame. If so, the next question is to what extent high heights can hold on somewhere over western Eurasia and how far poleward - the more so, the better for interfering with the vortex.


I've long been of the mindset that breaking away from a generally zonal pattern will take until at least mid-Jan and to be honest this now looks to be at the optimistic end of the scale. Before then it looks like polar maritime air from the northwest may be the only real candidate for bringing the temps down significantly - and I wouldn't be surprised to see that idea scuppered by LP development to the SW nearer the time.


 


So... not much to get excited about at the moment aside from the pretty much inevitable December temp records for E&W (inc. CET).


Worth pointing out, though, that ECM's 00z op produced for day 8 what may be the most intense non-tropical low I've ever seen in terms of the pressure gradient and compact nature of the storm:


No chart available for the selected hour. Many charts start at 3 hours ahead, so if you have 0 hours selected try stepping forward or selecting a later hour.


At the 850 hpa level for that time it shows sustained wind speeds of around 130 mph so near the surface it could be more than 70 mph on the SE side with gusts to over 100.


It seems unlikely that the extreme temp. gradient (+5*C to -5*C in the space of barely 100 miles at the 850 hpa level) will manage to be exploited to that extent - but not impossible! Of course even if it is the low has a good chance of staying west of the UK - but I imagine the Irish will be watching the potential closely.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 
2023's Homeland Extremes:
T-Max: 30.2°C 9th Sep (...!) | T-Min: -7.1°C 22nd & 23rd Jan | Wettest Day: 25.9mm 2nd Nov | Ice Days: 1 (2nd Dec -1.3°C in freezing fog)
Keep Calm and Forecast On

Remove ads from site

Ads